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JVR to Phantoms ???? (November 11 update, post #57)

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11-08-2010, 02:42 PM
  #26
sa cyred
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If JVR reaches his full potential (big if), then I think he'll be a better player than Kane. However, Kane is already there, so that's a big head start. However, Kane is an extremely one-dimensional player, and you add in the size he gives away and you lose a bit of what JVR will be capable of providing for his team.

Now... JVR needs to get there, and you can debate whether or not he will... but for all the good things Kane does, he doesn't bring much of anything to the table in other areas of the game.
In what aspect will JVR be better in? Offensively, its going to be Kane. Other then a few people, most I think would agree here. JVR has the size advantage, but I cant say I see JVR being the better player defensively in the future just because he is bigger. Bigger doesnt always equal better. JVR has the size but he could easily end up using his size like Carter does.... barely ever.

Maybe forechecking? Cant say Id give the head nod over Kane just because JVR can forecheck (at the moment he cant, but if he could in the future I dont think I still would.)

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11-08-2010, 02:46 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
JVR belongs in the NHL right now.
Wellwood belongs in the AHL right now.

That is that.
That should read:

JVR belongs in the NHL right now.

Wellwood belongs in the NHL right now.

Shelley belongs in the AHL right now.

That is that.

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11-08-2010, 02:54 PM
  #28
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You can't be afraid to send JVR down if there is a player more deserving of a roster spot. This is a meritocracy (Shelley excluded of course).

There's nothing worse than sending down a No. 2 pick, because then the organization feels like failure, but coddling the blue chips can also be problematic.
Bottom line is JVR needs to add some nastiness and grit, and plow toward the net.

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11-08-2010, 03:17 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
You can't be afraid to send JVR down if there is a player more deserving of a roster spot. This is a meritocracy (Shelley excluded of course).

There's nothing worse than sending down a No. 2 pick, because then the organization feels like failure, but coddling the blue chips can also be problematic.
Bottom line is JVR needs to add some nastiness and grit, and plow toward the net.
Though I agree with Pyccku that both Wellwood and JVR should be on the roster before Shelley if at all possible, this is not the coddling of a bluechip.

JVR is struggling to put in EV strength points. While he hasn't earned PP time based on his play at EV strength, that doesn't negate the fact that he's just not getting those minutes. PP points are a good way to boost confidence in offensive ability, and right now JVR's got no confidence in his offensive ability. Outside of one really stupid turnover, there have been no glaring holes in his defensive play and work.

In my opinion, he's run into the same snag Nodl was in, where he just cannot generate offense around the net.

This is a learning experience for him, and sending him down won't do anything for his confidence.

That said, he's a better player all-around than Wellwood right now. I know people like flashes of brilliance, but they're so quick for forget JVR's early season last year before getting severely worn out.

The offense will come. Be patient. He's not in the perfect scenario for a young kid to put up a lot of points, particularly a 2nd overall pick in that there is so much other talent on the team who are going to want the puck.

I'm not saying that he doesn't have to play better, but he's a better player right now than Wellwood regardless of what people are throwing out there.

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11-08-2010, 03:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Though I agree with Pyccku that both Wellwood and JVR should be on the roster before Shelley if at all possible, this is not the coddling of a bluechip.

JVR is struggling to put in EV strength points. While he hasn't earned PP time based on his play at EV strength, that doesn't negate the fact that he's just not getting those minutes. PP points are a good way to boost confidence in offensive ability, and right now JVR's got no confidence in his offensive ability. Outside of one really stupid turnover, there have been no glaring holes in his defensive play and work.

In my opinion, he's run into the same snag Nodl was in, where he just cannot generate offense around the net.

This is a learning experience for him, and sending him down won't do anything for his confidence.

That said, he's a better player all-around than Wellwood right now. I know people like flashes of brilliance, but they're so quick for forget JVR's early season last year before getting severely worn out.

The offense will come. Be patient. He's not in the perfect scenario for a young kid to put up a lot of points, particularly a 2nd overall pick in that there is so much other talent on the team who are going to want the puck.

I'm not saying that he doesn't have to play better, but he's a better player right now than Wellwood regardless of what people are throwing out there.
Being honest though, there are players who are putting up points playing the same amount of time JVR has. The not playing on the pp is not an excuse.

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11-08-2010, 03:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
In what aspect will JVR be better in? Offensively, its going to be Kane. Other then a few people, most I think would agree here. JVR has the size advantage, but I cant say I see JVR being the better player defensively in the future just because he is bigger. Bigger doesnt always equal better. JVR has the size but he could easily end up using his size like Carter does.... barely ever.

Maybe forechecking? Cant say Id give the head nod over Kane just because JVR can forecheck (at the moment he cant, but if he could in the future I dont think I still would.)
Kane is a MASSIVE zero defensively... like Danny Briere on his worst day bad. He brings nothing as far as net presence, and no physicality. I mean, seriously, watch Kane play... extremely flashy and skilled player, but after that it's pure fluff.

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11-08-2010, 03:58 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
You can't be afraid to send JVR down if there is a player more deserving of a roster spot. This is a meritocracy (Shelley excluded of course).

There's nothing worse than sending down a No. 2 pick, because then the organization feels like failure, but coddling the blue chips can also be problematic.
Bottom line is JVR needs to add some nastiness and grit, and plow toward the net.
You either have that or you dont. Kind of hard to acquire if your not that type of player. I dont care if he ever does play nasty or gritty so to speak. People look at his size automaticly think he needs to be this type of player. While i would like him to be he probably wont. He does need to toughen up a bit. He reminds me of Therian in the sense that everyone thought he should have been a bruiser because of his size. That was never his game. As for sending him down, not yet, as not like the guy is not showing anything. Those who think it will mess him up, well then if it did then he is a weak minded player who would never have cut then anyway in the long run. So if they keep wellwood up and he starts to struggle and looks out of placewill he then be labeled a bust? Since so many of you think he is an nhl player as of now it would be only fitting.

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11-08-2010, 04:02 PM
  #33
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everything is true, except i do believe you understate kane's one dimension. Yes he is one dimensional, but he is amongst the most dynamic and gifted players in that one aspect, and a true game changer. I dont see JVR ever being a truly great and gifted player in any aspect of his game. I see him being a good overall winger with size and some speed. Just imagine how great kane would be with a guy like carter.
No he's not. He may become that, but he's had a single PPG season thus far on an absolutely stacked team. He's a very good offensive player, but he's definitely on the second level looking up at the true game changers.

Hell there are a couple players on his own team I'd much prefer to him.

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11-08-2010, 04:15 PM
  #34
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i wouldnt be opposed to seeing jvr take some time in adirondack, making him earn his way back up could put some more grit in his game

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11-08-2010, 04:21 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
i wouldnt be opposed to seeing jvr take some time in adirondack, making him earn his way back up could put some more grit in his game
He needs to learn how to score at the professional level... and that is actually something time in the AHL, against weaker competition, could help with. However, a lot of it is just growing pains... and he didn't pot a few early on and started to press.

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11-08-2010, 05:36 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
**** you, draft lottery.
As I love to say to my buddies:

In 06-07 we sucked so bad that we even lost the Draft Lottery.

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11-08-2010, 05:37 PM
  #37
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As I love to say to my buddies:

In 06-07 we sucked so bad that we even lost the Draft Lottery.
The hockey gods gave us Claude Giroux in 2006.

Karma.

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11-08-2010, 05:44 PM
  #38
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Considering the train wreck that is the Phantoms right now, you're really asking which guy you'd rather risk ruining down there. One peaks as a nice third liner and the other as a good first liner. Makes the choice pretty easy to me.

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11-08-2010, 08:58 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
In my opinion, he's run into the same snag Nodl was in, where he just cannot generate offense around the net.
He's not generating offense around the net, because he isn't goign to the net. He tries and take the puck wide of the defenseman every time. He needs to cut to the middle occasionally. He also needs to sped a lot more time in front of the net.

Once he starts driving the net and establishing a net-front presence, the points will come. If you don't go where goals are scored, you aren't going to score them.

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11-08-2010, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
He's not generating offense around the net, because he isn't goign to the net. He tries and take the puck wide of the defenseman every time. He needs to cut to the middle occasionally. He also needs to sped a lot more time in front of the net.

Once he starts driving the net and establishing a net-front presence, the points will come. If you don't go where goals are scored, you aren't going to score them.
You sir, speak the truth.

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11-08-2010, 09:38 PM
  #41
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Haven't seen this posted, but JVR is most likely not going to be sent down.

http://www.csnphilly.com/11/08/10/On...223&feedID=695

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Van Riemsdyk, who has just four points (all assists) so far this year, will make the trip to North Carolina with the team. But Laviolette hopes being excluded from the lineup will energize the 21-year-old, just as it did last season, when he was scratched twice during the Stanley Cup Final.

“When James gets back in there, you hope it burns him a little bit to have been out of the lineup, and you hope he comes back with that revitalized energy like Z (Nikolay Zherdev) did,” Laviolette said. “And [that he’ll] make it a point to show that he shouldn’t come out of the lineup, and doesn’t anymore – doesn’t let that happen again.”
I don't see him traveling with the team if he is going to be sent down.

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11-08-2010, 10:39 PM
  #42
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From some of the posts in here, one would think that the Flyers missed out on drafting Ovechkin or Crosby. It seems to me like revisionist history that Kane was so clear-cut the #1. I remember speculation being pretty variable among the top 3. Then again, I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

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11-08-2010, 10:47 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
From some of the posts in here, one would think that the Flyers missed out on drafting Ovechkin or Crosby. It seems to me like revisionist history that Kane was so clear-cut the #1. I remember speculation being pretty variable among the top 3. Then again, I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.
I think you're right to an extent in that the top 3 were all kinda close, but I think it was more just that they were relatively close to each other, whereas the rest of the draft dropped off in a hurry.

IIRC, Kane was still the odds-on favourite #1, with 2 and 3 being a toss-up. There was some speculation that, if the Flyers picked first overall, they may still take JVR just because of their penchant for wanting big players to fit the Flyers image, but most of the hockey world knew Kane was the guy to have. That's how I remember it, anyway.

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11-08-2010, 10:55 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I think you're right to an extent in that the top 3 were all kinda close, but I think it was more just that they were relatively close to each other, whereas the rest of the draft dropped off in a hurry.

IIRC, Kane was still the odds-on favourite #1, with 2 and 3 being a toss-up. There was some speculation that, if the Flyers picked first overall, they may still take JVR just because of their penchant for wanting big players to fit the Flyers image, but most of the hockey world knew Kane was the guy to have. That's how I remember it, anyway.
Thanks for your response, infidelappel. What I remember is that, while Kane held the edge among the three, his lack of size was a big question mark.

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11-09-2010, 07:37 AM
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Might be a smart idea to take Riemsy, while on the road and all.

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11-09-2010, 07:43 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Kane is a MASSIVE zero defensively... like Danny Briere on his worst day bad. He brings nothing as far as net presence, and no physicality. I mean, seriously, watch Kane play... extremely flashy and skilled player, but after that it's pure fluff.
Agreed. If you watch, he spends most of his time hanging out at the opposing blue line waiting for one of his teammates to get him the puck. From the blue line in, he's brilliant. But that's all he brings, and it's one of the big reasons I didn't want him that year. I didn't expect him to be the goal scorer he is now though.

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11-09-2010, 09:04 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I think you're right to an extent in that the top 3 were all kinda close, but I think it was more just that they were relatively close to each other, whereas the rest of the draft dropped off in a hurry.

IIRC, Kane was still the odds-on favourite #1, with 2 and 3 being a toss-up. There was some speculation that, if the Flyers picked first overall, they may still take JVR just because of their penchant for wanting big players to fit the Flyers image, but most of the hockey world knew Kane was the guy to have. That's how I remember it, anyway.
I don't remember much of a drop off actually. A very large number of people here wanted Voracek with the #2 pick, while some of us wanted Gagner in that spot (and not just for the sake of confusion). The whole thing was a toss up as I remember it.

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11-09-2010, 01:20 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
From some of the posts in here, one would think that the Flyers missed out on drafting Ovechkin or Crosby. It seems to me like revisionist history that Kane was so clear-cut the #1. I remember speculation being pretty variable among the top 3. Then again, I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.
Kane was the clear cut #1 by the time the draft rolled around, but he wasn't in the running for #1 all season long like you typically see with the first overall pick. Esposito, Couture, Cherepanov, Voracek, and Turris had all been ranked #1 at some point. He was never highly regard as a Hall, Tavares, or Stamkos who all were mentioned as a possible #1 pick before their draft year. Kane came out of no where.

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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I don't remember much of a drop off actually. A very large number of people here wanted Voracek with the #2 pick, while some of us wanted Gagner in that spot (and not just for the sake of confusion). The whole thing was a toss up as I remember it.
Well in terms of the final rankings it was pretty much of a consensus of Kane, JVR, and Turris as the top 3 with Alzner and Gagner rounding out the top 5.

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11-09-2010, 01:49 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
I like JVR's potential long-term more than I do Kane's, but for right now, **** the draft lottery indeed.
If the Flyers sucked over the last two years and JvR was getting a more prominent role his numbers would be better, right now he is just fitting in a lineup that does not need his scoring at this time.

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11-09-2010, 02:01 PM
  #50
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Agreed. If you watch, he spends most of his time hanging out at the opposing blue line waiting for one of his teammates to get him the puck. From the blue line in, he's brilliant. But that's all he brings, and it's one of the big reasons I didn't want him that year. I didn't expect him to be the goal scorer he is now though.
Kane isn't as terrible defensively as everyone says

He is great at taking away puck from guy coming up ice + he hustles and has broken up a few breakaways (Crosby in gold medal game for 1)

He is never going to be a great or good defender but he has made improvements in that aspect of game

And for the people that complain about 2007 draft lotto ,,,, Hawks got it much worse in 2004

We should have had the #2 pick (Evgeni Malkin) but got bumped down for Cam "Bust" Barker

We would have had Toews + Malkin down middle (Remember Malkin didn't come over till 06-07 season) ... Might not have gotten Kane though but still getting Barker in that draft was a punch in the gut when it happened

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