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Carter close to signing 10-year deal (post #441 and #675); Leino update (# 675)

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11-09-2010, 01:15 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
wonder if Richards will pout if it is more $ than his.
Is there anyone on this team you actually like??

Jeebus, I don't think I've ever encountered anyone more negative than you are.

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11-09-2010, 01:15 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Villedelphia View Post
I've felt this way alot and agree we need prospects, and those 1st rounders would be great, but I think we have a really good chance at winning multiple cups in the next 3-4 years. I'd be happy with one of course, but I think we're capable of repeating with the core we have, including Carter...and I really dont even like him that much. But I think we need him now.
Carter is a good regular season guy, but what goes to show he can suceed in playoffs? Its easy to point out how he hit 40 goals once and how he is a great ES player, but when it comes to playoffs its excuses, among excuses. He hurt this, he hurt that.

Personally, I think we can win the same amount of games during the season without Carter, and be successful in playoffs without him (since he doesnt do anything in playoffs anyway). Its a huge risk that Homer is going to have to make. Not many teams can win multiple cups over a small span. Very few teams do it. If he really thinks that this team can win the cup multiple times, then you keep Carter. If he cares about the future also, and doesnt want 2006-2007 to repeat itself again, you let Carter walk.

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11-09-2010, 01:18 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Over/under 10 days before Cartsiephan is on suicide watch?

Not sure I like another long-term deal, but I'll be happy to have Carter locked up. The cap hit really depends on the length of the deal so I'm not gonna bother with a prediction.
Nope, if the guy show up to play and contribute like a player who is getting paid I do not mind and if it does not hamstring or deplete the organization for getting a better deal in return for Carter I am good with it. But a long term deal and anything more than $5.5mill is a ripoff for a player who is getting paid as the best center on the team but moved to wing because Giroux plays the position better.

What do you not get about his discussion? It is not about Carter and whether he has the talent to be a 30-40 goal scorer but that he may hold the best value as a commodity to replenish a farm system and cap space which is in disarray. He is not a perennial 40 goal scorer, but a decent player who can put up points, see Ollie Jokinen.

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11-09-2010, 01:18 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
You gotta think though, will it really be wise to sign all these players to long contracts. In 3 years, alot of this team will be in the 30s. We arent going to be a young team. JVR will be 25, Giroux 26, Richards, Carter, and Coburn will be turning 30. Carle will be 30. Meszaros will be 29. Pronger will be 39. Timonen will be 38. Even Nodl will be 26-27. After this era is gone, we are going to hit the wall...hard. There will be another 2006-2007 season on its way, maybe even 2 of them.

You let Carter get to free agency. He doesnt take 6 milor less you let him walk for the 2 firsts or whatever. That means in the next 3 drafts we have 5 first round picks. We restock the prospects and in a few years have a few young guys ready to come in and take the spot of the older guys.
Datsyuk 32, Zetterberg 30, Franzen 30, Lidstrom 40 etc.. Let not jump of a cliff just yet.

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11-09-2010, 01:21 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Datsyuk 32, Zetterberg 30, Franzen 30, Lidstrom 40 etc.. Let not jump of a cliff just yet.
Yep. But we are 2 totally different teams.

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11-09-2010, 01:22 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Carter is a good regular season guy, but what goes to show he can suceed in playoffs? Its easy to point out how he hit 40 goals once and how he is a great ES player, but when it comes to playoffs its excuses, among excuses. He hurt this, he hurt that.

Personally, I think we can win the same amount of games during the season without Carter, and be successful in playoffs without him (since he doesnt do anything in playoffs anyway). Its a huge risk. Not many teams can win multiple cups over a small span. Very few teams do it
Who is going to replace is 30-35 goals in the regular season? We have already lost Gagne, Zherdev half sucks and JVR is super snakebitten.

And When your game revolves around speed, I think having 2 broken bones in your feet is really going to affect you in the playoffs (still manage a decent 7 points in 12 games).

I'm sure if Carter hadn't rushed himself back from injury you would complain about how he had no heart and is a wimp. Would you have preferred to have Pyorala in the lineup over injured Carter?

Quote:
Yep. But we are 2 totally different teams.
We are actually built very similarly, if you look at it player by player. 2 teams built around a strong D, 2 great two-way centers and a young goalie.

Lidstrom and Pronger 2 norris caliber D men.
Datsyuk and Richards Selke quality forwards, around a PPG
Zetterberg and Carter big 2nd weapons, who are also great defensively
Rafalski and Timonen could be number 1s on worse teams
Coburn and Stuart Big 2 way d men
Kronvall and Meszaros ditto with more offense
Briere and Franzen- playoff monsters
Giroux similar to Filpulla in experience
etc

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Old
11-09-2010, 01:23 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Who is going to replace is 30-35 goals in the regular season? We have already lost Gagne, Zherdev half sucks and JVR is super snakebitten.

And When your game revolves around speed, I think having 2 broken bones in your feet is really going to affect you in the playoffs (still manage a decent 7 points in 12 games).

I'm sure if Carter hadn't rushed himself back from injury you would complain about how he had no heart and is a wimp. Would you have preferred to have Pyorala in the lineup over injured Carter?
People said the same thing when Lupul and Knuble left.

It seemed to work out perfectly fine.

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11-09-2010, 01:24 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Who is going to replace is 30-35 goals in the regular season? We have already lost Gagne, Zherdev half sucks and JVR is super snakebitten.
You can't move him during the season. But if you end up trading him I think you can get a very good young winger AND early picks back for him, especially if he has a good season. On this team next to Briere, Giroux, or RIchards there are a lot of good young wingers who could net 30.

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11-09-2010, 01:24 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Yep. But we are 2 totally different teams.
I wouldn't say totally different. We definitely follow the Detroit modo of spend on defense, down the middle and not on the goalie.

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11-09-2010, 01:27 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Carter is our best goalscorer and is making $5.5 this year.

He is well worth that price, whether you like him or not. On the open market, Carter could EASILY get $7 per for many years.
Actually so far he is not and by the end of the season I do not think he will either, but he will continue to put up 3pt game in blowouts and then disappear for a week at a time so let's give him a raise..

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11-09-2010, 01:27 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
I wouldn't say totally different. We definitely follow the Detroit modo of spend on defense, down the middle and not on the goalie.

Until we start winning cups, we cant be compared to the Wings. Its easy to look at a roster and say we are cup contenders, but the Wings have had success, keeping 1st round picks and evening it out with older players. Right now we are looking towards close to a FULL TEAM of older players.

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11-09-2010, 01:28 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
People said the same thing when Lupul and Knuble left.

It seemed to work out perfectly fine.
Well that year we had Giroux coming into his form and Briere was coming off an injury plagued year.

losing Gagne, Carter, Lupul, Knuble >>>>> just Lupul and Knuble

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11-09-2010, 01:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Well that year we had Giroux coming into his form and Briere was coming off an injury plagued year.

losing Gagne, Carter, Lupul, Knuble >>>>> just Lupul and Knuble
add Leino, Hartnell coming off a terrible year

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11-09-2010, 01:30 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Well that year we had Giroux coming into his form and Briere was coming off an injury plagued year.

losing Gagne, Carter, Lupul, Knuble >>>>> just Lupul and Knuble
But now we have players who can take up for his load.


Hey, I have no problem signing Carter for 6 mil or less. Just everyone needs to prepare themselves for another 06-07 season. History has showed for pretty much all teams that this is what happens when you put your eggs all in one basket.

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11-09-2010, 01:32 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Carter is a good regular season guy, but what goes to show he can suceed in playoffs? Its easy to point out how he hit 40 goals once and how he is a great ES player, but when it comes to playoffs its excuses, among excuses. He hurt this, he hurt that.

Personally, I think we can win the same amount of games during the season without Carter, and be successful in playoffs without him (since he doesnt do anything in playoffs anyway). Its a huge risk that Homer is going to have to make. Not many teams can win multiple cups over a small span. Very few teams do it. If he really thinks that this team can win the cup multiple times, then you keep Carter. If he cares about the future also, and doesnt want 2006-2007 to repeat itself again, you let Carter walk.
I'd be ok with this. Nothing against Carter but that's some pretty good points. Carter is far from a lock to score 40 goals. Let him walk, take the picks, and sign a lesser player to a shorter deal for lesser money. Low risk-high reward scenario. If the young guys keep progressing the need for a long term high cap guy like Carter will be negligible. It would be nice if he was a 40+ goal scorer and stayed here forever, but it would be just as nice if we got the draft picks and signed a cheaper player who can pot 30. I think as much as people hate Homer around here, the one thing everyone can agree on is that the guy can draft.

Not really saying that this is what I WANT to happen, but if it did, I wouldn't be freaking out by any means.

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11-09-2010, 01:36 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Carter is a good regular season guy, but what goes to show he can suceed in playoffs? Its easy to point out how he hit 40 goals once and how he is a great ES player, but when it comes to playoffs its excuses, among excuses. He hurt this, he hurt that.

Personally, I think we can win the same amount of games during the season without Carter, and be successful in playoffs without him (since he doesnt do anything in playoffs anyway). Its a huge risk that Homer is going to have to make. Not many teams can win multiple cups over a small span. Very few teams do it. If he really thinks that this team can win the cup multiple times, then you keep Carter. If he cares about the future also, and doesnt want 2006-2007 to repeat itself again, you let Carter walk.
Completely agree, he hasn't done anything in the playoffs and I've been a borderline Carter hater who never made excuses for him. I'm just not sure I want to give up on him yet, and it definitely is a big risk. If we can't get hit cap hit at 6.5 or lower I think I'd have to let him walk. But it's hard to say, this one is tough.

Maybe 4 years: 5.75, 6.25, 6.25, 6.75


I dont think another 06-07 will happen just because our offensive core is in their early 30s at most. They should still be great players. Our defensive stars will be really old but I don't think our depth on D is bad at all including those on the phantoms and that will help.

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11-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #92
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Players can and usually are still productive in their early 30s. It's not up until around the age of 35 that contracts start to get risky, generally.

Still, I don't think it's any secret that the contracts we have are currently structured in a way that ignores the long-term effects of said contracts. Pronger and Briere's contracts both represent potential massive problems down the road so I'm hoping the best works out with them.

Our prospect pool is also barren with JVR (who has yet to develop really) and Giroux (who has yet to develop enough to hit 50 points in the regular season) representing the last of our prospects/youth with enough scoring upside to be serious impact players. Bobrovsky and Eriksson, both goalies, represent the last of our high-quality prospects as well.

So there is potential for a rough road down the line, but for now we're fine. GMs don't get enough credit for what they're able to do to get out of jams and the NHL is pretty unpredictable so there's not much point in getting up-in-arms about some potential trouble down the line.

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11-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Until we start winning cups, we cant be compared to the Wings. Its easy to look at a roster and say we are cup contenders, but the Wings have had success, keeping 1st round picks and evening it out with older players. Right now we are looking towards close to a FULL TEAM of older players.
I am just saying. With our core it won't be all doom and gloom like 06-07.

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11-09-2010, 01:40 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Villedelphia View Post
Completely agree, he hasn't done anything in the playoffs and I've been a borderline Carter hater who never made excuses for him. I'm just not sure I want to give up on him yet, and it definitely is a big risk. If we can't get hit cap hit at 6.5 or lower I think I'd have to let him walk. But it's hard to say, this one is tough.

Maybe 4 years: 5.75, 6.25, 6.25, 6.75


I dont think another 06-07 will happen just because our offensive core is in their early 30s at most. They should still be great players. Our defensive stars will be really old but I don't think our depth on D is bad at all including those on the phantoms and that will help.
Hey, believe it or not, Im not a Carter hater, just thinking about the future.

The thing is, we are going to have ALOT of guys who will be making over 5 mil. Giroux will be making alot more. JVR will be getting a raise. How about the other positions? Right now we dont have young guys coming up to take the other positions. We have a 1st round pick this year, in which Homer will most likely trade away again. In a few years we are going to need cheap players, or we are going to see Gagne like trades again.

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11-09-2010, 01:44 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Hey, believe it or not, Im not a Carter hater, just thinking about the future.

The thing is, we are going to have ALOT of guys who will be making over 5 mil. Giroux will be making alot more. JVR will be getting a raise. How about the other positions? Right now we dont have young guys coming up to take the other positions. We have a 1st round pick this year, in which Homer will most likely trade away again. In a few years we are going to need cheap players, or we are going to see Gagne like trades again.
When is JVR's contract up? If he keeps up with his current ****** play he won't be getting a big contract at all.

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11-09-2010, 01:53 PM
  #96
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You gotta think though, will it really be wise to sign all these players to long contracts. In 3 years, alot of this team will be in the 30s. We arent going to be a young team. JVR will be 25, Giroux 26, Richards, Carter, and Coburn will be turning 30. Carle will be 30. Meszaros will be 29. Pronger will be 39. Timonen will be 38. Even Nodl will be 26-27. After this era is gone, we are going to hit the wall...hard. There will be another 2006-2007 season on its way, maybe even 2 of them.
Can you please explain me, how a person who's now 25 will turn 30 in 3 years?
Also 3 years is far too long down the road to make any predictions, especially in sports. Look at the team from 3 years ago, how many of those guys we thought would develop a certain way did exactly so? How many guys we thought would still be on this team are?

If nothing strange happens we will be very competetive this season and probably the next one, everything after that is a complete crap shot.

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11-09-2010, 01:56 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Players can and usually are still productive in their early 30s. It's not up until around the age of 35 that contracts start to get risky, generally.

Still, I don't think it's any secret that the contracts we have are currently structured in a way that ignores the long-term effects of said contracts. Pronger and Briere's contracts both represent potential massive problems down the road so I'm hoping the best works out with them.

Our prospect pool is also barren with JVR (who has yet to develop really) and Giroux (who has yet to develop enough to hit 50 points in the regular season) representing the last of our prospects/youth with enough scoring upside to be serious impact players. Bobrovsky and Eriksson, both goalies, represent the last of our high-quality prospects as well.

So there is potential for a rough road down the line, but for now we're fine. GMs don't get enough credit for what they're able to do to get out of jams and the NHL is pretty unpredictable so there's not much point in getting up-in-arms about some potential trouble down the line.

Actually defensively they have some good core prospects with potential, but potential can either lead to a decent NHL career or a perennial AHL All-Star. The farm system is in shambles though, to say otherwise is putting your head in the sand. If you want to go back to the early 90's after the post-80's run with no Cup it means having to go about things like Pittsburgh or Chicago and not a franchise like Detroit.

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Old
11-09-2010, 01:58 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Can you please explain me, how a person who's now 25 will turn 30 in 3 years?
Also 3 years is far too long down the road to make any predictions, especially in sports. Look at the team from 3 years ago, how many of those guys we thought would develop a certain way did exactly so? How many guys we thought would still be on this team are?

If nothing strange happens we will be very competetive this season and probably the next one, everything after that is a complete crap shot.
No problem. Carter Coburn and Richards will be turning 26 this season. After this season is over (which by all the ages Im counting 3 years by then) they will be 29 by the start of the 2014-2015 season and mid season be turning 30.

Like this:

Richards:
10-11 = 26-27 (this season which Im not counting)
11-12 = 27-28
12-13 = 28-29
13-14 = 29-30

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11-09-2010, 01:59 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Villedelphia View Post
When is JVR's contract up? If he keeps up with his current ****** play he won't be getting a big contract at all.
Leino will and JvR is cheaper now than trying to lock into a multi-year deal and has potential to be a slower developing player due to his playing career and his growing into his size on skates.

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11-09-2010, 02:03 PM
  #100
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No problem. Carter Coburn and Richards will be turning 26 this season. After this season is over (which by all the ages Im counting 3 years by then) they will be 29 by the start of the 2014-2015 season and mid season be turning 30.
lol I didn't even realize you where talking about the 2014-15 season. I just assumed we would have all those people still under contract.

Coburn, Carle, and Timonen contracts run out well before then, and there will be plenty of opportunities to sign or trade (excluding drafting on purpose) for much younger players. Even Mez's contract runs out that year.

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