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Old
11-08-2010, 10:36 AM
  #76
token grinder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I thought Franson had a really good game against the ducks. Cube and O'Brien not so much.

He did get beat wide by Jason Blake but he's not the first defenseman to struggle with Blake's speed. In fairness though, he did crush Blake in the corners all night long. It's the most physical game we've seen Franson play.

He was really good with the puck tonight too.
good. maybe he realizes when suter comes back and someone sits and it could be him.

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11-08-2010, 11:43 AM
  #77
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I think the only ones not in jepordy of sitting right now are Weber and Klein, none of the others a playing at a high level right now.

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11-08-2010, 12:25 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I think the only ones not in jepordy of sitting right now are Weber and Klein, none of the others a playing at a high level right now.
I would agree with that. Why hasn't trotz tried pairing them together since klein can make a breakout pass? that would allow weber to do what he does and not worry about having to cover his d partner so much.

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11-08-2010, 12:28 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
I would agree with that. Why hasn't trotz tried pairing them together since klein can make a breakout pass? that would allow weber to do what he does and not worry about having to cover his d partner so much.
Because they both play the right side...

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Old
11-08-2010, 06:57 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
if you are talking goal number two he was caught in what some would call a poor d-change, others would call a great breakout pass.

lightning-please explain to me the first goal. tell me my hate is unwarrented when a big guy like that tries to poke poke poke and gets burned and abused. kopitar had a laser of a shot that beats pekka, but that shot never should have happened and weouldn't if franson uses any part of his body to disrupt kopitar
1. I told ya you were hatin on him! lol

2. I agree that poking was not the best thing to do, but you have to admit that he is using his body more and more lately.

3. Not many people can stop Kopitar! Weber would have trouble with a guy like him. He is a top 10 forward in the NHL no doubt, and that says alot.

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Old
11-08-2010, 08:20 PM
  #81
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I thought I would chime in about the first goal in the LA game. I certainly understand Kopitar is good, but Franson got burned and he knew it. We made the trip out to LA for the Kings and Ducks game. I was sitting on the third row, just outside of the Preds bench. The dmen were sitting nearest us. After the 1st goal Franson had an outburst and slammed the glass at the side of the bench really hard. I was actually surprised the glass didn't break or dislodge. So I am pretty sure he knew he got beat pretty bad on the play.

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Old
11-09-2010, 03:35 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
if you are talking goal number two he was caught in what some would call a poor d-change, others would call a great breakout pass.

lightning-please explain to me the first goal. tell me my hate is unwarrented when a big guy like that tries to poke poke poke and gets burned and abused. kopitar had a laser of a shot that beats pekka, but that shot never should have happened and weouldn't if franson uses any part of his body to disrupt kopitar

You know theres a guy in Det that plays D allot like that.. I just cant remember his name.. I know hes won allot of awards.. Just because your a big D doesnt mean you gota be a big hitter... most of all when your game is about offense...

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Old
11-09-2010, 06:22 AM
  #83
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The glaring difference between Lidstrom and Franson is positioning. Lidstrom doesn't have the throw the body because of his excellent positioning. It's also a reason you rarely see him take a hit. A HUGE factor in how he is able to remain effective so late in his career.

In token's example, Franson ended up out of position while fishing for the puck instead of just using his body while he still had the lane.

I like Franson, but even a vague comparison between him and Lidstrom isn't fair.

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Old
11-09-2010, 11:21 AM
  #84
token grinder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predsrule View Post
You know theres a guy in Det that plays D allot like that.. I just cant remember his name.. I know hes won allot of awards.. Just because your a big D doesnt mean you gota be a big hitter... most of all when your game is about offense...
that big d is an average size d-man. 6-1 to marshmellow's 6-4 and marshmellow has 20 pounds on him. and when you are an average size d man and have elite passing skills, is an above average skater, and can place his shot anywhere, he can get away with poke checking and using his body just a little bit. when you are not an elite passer, have a huge frame, and is a pylon on ice, it makes sense to use your body even to just impede a guy a little bit. marshmellow might as well have a red flag and yell ole' half the time

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Old
11-09-2010, 11:46 AM
  #85
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If Franson was his size and skated like Lidstrom this wouldn't be a thread...

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Old
11-09-2010, 08:10 PM
  #86
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Are we really trying to compare or analyze Lidstrom and Franson? Quick story about how good Lidstrom is.

Scotty Bowman used to talk to everyone at Red Wings practices, everyone, except Lidstrom. He would coach all the other guys and say what they weren't doing right. He never said a word to Lidstrom. Lidstrom thought Bowman hated him since he hardly if ever uttered a word in his direction. It wasn't until Bowman stopped coaching and left the team that Bowman let him in on the secret. The reason he didn't say a word to him was he didn't have to, Lidstrom did everything correct, in Bowman's eyes. Have you ever heard of that in any player? I don't think I have. Bowman coached quite a few elite defensemen over they years and Lidstrom was the best of the bunch.

All that said, I don't care how big, small, round, thin, etc, that you are. If you have a great set of physical tools and couple that with a mind that is far and above everyone else's, you go down as one of the greatest ever. Lidstrom's mind, coupled with his skills allow him to not take punishment, be in the right place at the right time, essentially making him the perfect player. There are very few guys like him if ever that have played this game. He just knows where to be and what play to make all the time. Very rarely, if ever, do you see him make a poor play or decision.

With that said, people will try to defend Franson and that's fine and good but he is a sub par defensive player at this point in his career. His offensive decisions and skills are about average at this point. While he's had a few nice goals and assists as of late, his decision making with the puck when leaving the defensive zone leaves a lot to be desired. A guy with his height and ability to see the ice should be able to make the correct pass from the back. While I see Grinder's point about wanting to see Franson use more of his size, I'd personally like to see him use his mind and skills to more of an advantage as he doesn't appear to be a punishing type player. He needs to learn better positioning and to anticipate the player better.

The same arguments were made for Zanon and his ability to block shots. While all that was fine and brave, more often than not he was out of position and having to block shots for not being in the right spot.

I would rather have a guy that doesn't hit and doesn't block shots to a guy who is positionally sound and knows how to play his position properly. I saw a play the other night where Lidstrom was the one guy back on a 2 on 1. He played the passing lane like he was supposed to. The pass comes across and instead of trying to knock it down with his stick, goes to the ice with one leg, impedes the progress of the puck with his leg, giving him a better chance of re-directing the puck, and breaking up the play and making it look easy. This is a guy in his 40's and still doing it better than everyone in the league.

While this thread is all fine and dandy and there is no right answer, Franson, at this point in his career, IMVHO, is a third pairing guy, at best. He has upside but if he doesn't get smarter while reading the play in front of him, he's not going to make it much past where he's at now. He could also learn to take some skating lessons to help improve his stride and speed.

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Old
11-10-2010, 10:03 AM
  #87
triggrman
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I really don't see Franson making a lot of bad mental errors with the puck? I'm not trying to beat you up but can you really tell that each of these mistakes on passing out of the zone are Franson's mistakes and not the winger missing his breakout assignment? I mean there's a lot of times in hockey where you pass to an open space for a winger to skate into the play. If that winger misses his assignment it looks like Franson just missed the pass when really it's on the winger. Not saying that's always the case with Franson, just saying we need to keep that in mind. We don't know what their breakouts are unless we go to practice and game meetings.

And I question anyone that things his offensive skills are "average" His stick handling and shot are way above average. He also reads the play in the offensive zone as good as any defenseman we have not named Suter.

While his skating does need work, he's not Bill Houlder or Cale Hulse slow. He will never be fast and speed will always be his biggest downfall.

Maybe those of you expecting him to be Weber or Lidstrom need to get a reality check.

I can't believe the passes everyone gives cube and the nitpicking that goes on with Franson.

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Old
11-10-2010, 10:23 AM
  #88
token grinder
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Trigg, I think it is the Franson fanboys who irk people like me with the franson is great talk to nitpick his game. I don't think it is a matter of cube getting a pass. It is everyone should know that cube is a third pair guy playing top line minutes, and kinda expect what we have gotten out of him. Whereas Franson has been built up over the years as the next coming, and he isn't. He is a third pair guy right now with good offensive skills whose slower than molasses

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Old
11-10-2010, 11:10 AM
  #89
triggrman
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Token, I agree with that. He is a 3rd pairing guy with good offensive skills. He's also 22 years old and has a ton of room to grow.

He's also putting up better numbers than any of our other defensemen and has the highest plus/minus right now. Franson isn't a problem.

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Old
11-10-2010, 11:18 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
Trigg, I think it is the Franson fanboys who irk people like me with the franson is great talk to nitpick his game. I don't think it is a matter of cube getting a pass. It is everyone should know that cube is a third pair guy playing top line minutes, and kinda expect what we have gotten out of him. Whereas Franson has been built up over the years as the next coming, and he isn't. He is a third pair guy right now with good offensive skills whose slower than molasses
I don't know who you have been talking to but I certainly can't ever recall him being billed as the second coming of anything. In fact before the season started last season and he didn't make the team out of training camp I know some people were wondering if he was ever going to be an NHL player for this organization. I think most people agree with the fact that he's a 14-16 minute night D-man who plays the PP.

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11-10-2010, 11:25 AM
  #91
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I don't know who you have been talking to but I certainly can't ever recall him being billed as the second coming of anything.
A lot of people have been talking for several years, citing his shot and his size and comparing him to the next Weber coming up in the system. I think that's his biggest issue in some people's eyes, they see his size on paper and are frustrated that he is not only not a nasty hitter who will punish opponents in front of the net and in the corners, but he also doesn't seem to use his size with any kind of consistency.

If he were 5'10 and 185, everyone would probably be singing his praises on a nightly basis.

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11-10-2010, 12:23 PM
  #92
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Wait a minute. Big but soft. Doesn't use his size well. Hammer of a slapshot but a slow windup. Slow. Occasionally caught out of position defensively.

We didn't trade Arnott - we just moved him to defense!

...just kidding. Sorry. It just dawned on me that so many of the complaints are identical.

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11-10-2010, 01:25 PM
  #93
token grinder
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
If he were 5'10 and 185, everyone would probably be singing his praises on a nightly basis.
100 percent correct.


the talk i was referring to i guess started with the forsberg trade. it was either franson or parent going to philly. I remember poile talking about keeping franson on the radio bc of his size and shot and his room to fill out his frame and be a dominant d-man. people ran with it on the old boards. for what 4 years? three? I have been waiting on any king od mean streak. any kind of physical play. Fact is, he isn't 5-10. he has a big frame. he needs to use it. I am not talking about bone crushing hits. Just enough to move a man off the puck. I will use suter here as an example. He will neve be confused with a guy who throws huge body checks. But he is great and seperating man from puck and breaking out of the zone. That is what should be expected on d-men, able to use your frame to seperate man from puck. I don't care if it is a huge check, or pinning a guy to the boards and waiting on help from the center or wing. It needs to be done and franson needs to grow this part of his game. I know he can't be afraid to do it. No one who plays the game is afraid of contact. I just don't know what goes on between the ears that says poke check rather than use his body. He is here becasue he had offensive skills and size. if we wanted an offensive dynamo that didn't use the body so much, blum or ellis would be here. You can see the talent in franson, offensively. But to be anything more than a third pair guy, he has to fine tune the nuances of playing defence in the nhl. We have seen suter go from rookie that everyone seemed to hate to best american d-man in the nhl because he gre into his frame and learned how to seperate man from puck. We have seen Weber gorw into a hulking dman and go from a guy who had a booming shot and a nasty streak into a guy with those same talents, but know how to handle weight now and seprate man from puck in a variety of ways. You see it with Klein. He is getting better every year and is a solid number 4 d-man. We need Franson to continue to develop just like these other guys have.

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Old
11-10-2010, 02:12 PM
  #94
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We just started seeing it in Klein this year, Klein was drafted 2 years before Franson.

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11-10-2010, 04:01 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
A lot of people have been talking for several years, citing his shot and his size and comparing him to the next Weber coming up in the system. I think that's his biggest issue in some people's eyes, they see his size on paper and are frustrated that he is not only not a nasty hitter who will punish opponents in front of the net and in the corners, but he also doesn't seem to use his size with any kind of consistency.

If he were 5'10 and 185, everyone would probably be singing his praises on a nightly basis.
I've been an active member of this board for awhile now and I have to say if people were comparing Franson to Weber I must have missed all those conversations. I know people were excited for him as a prospect and for good reason. He had good size and good skills even as a young teenager and was putting up pretty good numbers in the Dub as a 18,19 year old.

I think most people accept him for what he is now. But he's still young and could improve his game.

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11-10-2010, 05:28 PM
  #96
token grinder
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i think the comparisons were becasue of his size and shot, where the popular idea was they were clones and they are not

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11-10-2010, 07:07 PM
  #97
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I think Franson has been our best dman so far consistently. Excluding Suter. Weber has been far off his game lately, Klein has been good, Sulzer has been ehhh, and The Cube has been off and on.

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11-10-2010, 07:21 PM
  #98
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I think Franson has been our best dman so far consistently. Excluding Suter. Weber has been far off his game lately, Klein has been good, Sulzer has been ehhh, and The Cube has been off and on.
Maybe, if you're only considering stats. Since Suter's injury, Klein has been our best D-man, and it isn't even close.

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11-10-2010, 11:33 PM
  #99
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I just call him Mr. Ice because that is his breakout pass.

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Old
11-11-2010, 07:37 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by I Will Son View Post
I think Franson has been our best dman so far consistently. Excluding Suter. Weber has been far off his game lately, Klein has been good, Sulzer has been ehhh, and The Cube has been off and on.
I agree, consistently slow and out of position

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