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Carter close to signing 10-year deal (post #441 and #675); Leino update (# 675)

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11-09-2010, 09:20 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I don't get why everyone wants to move Carter. The guy's a damn fine hockey player. He's a big body that can skate like the wind, plays exceptional defense and is a 40 goal scorer. You don't give those guys up. He's been misused for part of the year, but that's Laviolette's error. I seriously don't understand the Carter hate.
No hate from me. I'm the kind who wants his GM to be always listening and inquiring about deals that will make the team better. I believe we collectively have the wrong mindset of trading players who are not playing well / off-ice problems / generally not liked. That's a great way to approach selling low and buying high. If 1 GM wants to significantly overpay for Carter, with players who would fill holes now and in the future, then I'd want Holmgren to consider it.

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11-09-2010, 09:27 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve and he isn't an obviously gritty or aggressive guy. He isn't lion hearted in teh same way Richards is, but people don't give him credit for having any fortitude at all. He could've been playing on two broken hips last year and people would've been underwhelmed.

He also is the kind of player who will produce well statistically over long stretches but isn't a clutch go to scorer IMO. This frustrates people since when you look at his totals it seems like he should be the offensive weapon of choice.

And going from the accounts of four people I know who have never met each other (but have all met Jeff Carter) he is kind of a dick in person.

Just my opinion obviously.
His game isn't ugly enough for this city, but that's not his fault. I'm of the opinion that clutch doesn't really exist. If you're a scorer like Carter, there's no time he isn't a weapon of choice. I've met him in person (opening day for the Phillies in 08), and he was a nice guy.

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11-09-2010, 09:34 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
His game isn't ugly enough for this city, but that's not his fault. I'm of the opinion that clutch doesn't really exist. If you're a scorer like Carter, there's no time he isn't a weapon of choice. I've met him in person (opening day for the Phillies in 08), and he was a nice guy.
Provided that clutch = being at your absolute best in big moments and games.....I can't disagree with this more. I'm not one of the HFBoards retards who thinks you're either clutch or a choker, and there is no in between. I have watched and played with a lot of guys who were consistently better than normal when their teams needed them most. Different guys get there different ways, some guys have a fire to win lit in them by the moment, some guys adrenaline just slows the game down for them and they get locked in. Briere is a really good example.

I played with a kid who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in the regular season and whenever we had a play-off game he would be the same way to start but after he got hit a few times he would usually be good for one or two picked corners a game...


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11-09-2010, 09:37 PM
  #154
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6 years @ 6.125M

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Old
11-09-2010, 09:38 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I can't even begin to disagree with this more.
There's no statistical proof of it. There's no other proof to go on, because the only way to judge it is by stats. Guys who consistently score in those positions people like to call clutch are on the ice more than other players, of course they're going to score more during them. The performances of guys who score or make plays otherwise in those times are largely anomalous.

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Old
11-09-2010, 09:40 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve and he isn't an obviously gritty or aggressive guy. He isn't lion hearted in teh same way Richards is, but people don't give him credit for having any fortitude at all. He could've been playing on two broken hips last year and people would've been underwhelmed.

He also is the kind of player who will produce well statistically over long stretches but isn't a clutch go to scorer IMO. This frustrates people since when you look at his totals it seems like he should be the offensive weapon of choice.

And going from the accounts of four people I know who have never met each other (but have all met Jeff Carter) he is kind of a dick in person.

Just my opinion obviously.
It would have been better for him if he and Richards hadn't been drafted in the same year. People always appreciate a blue collar player who shows a lot of grit more than a skill player. These two are always going to be compared to each other and it's stupid because the only thing they have in common is they're both centres.

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11-09-2010, 09:48 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
There's no statistical proof of it. There's no other proof to go on, because the only way to judge it is by stats. Guys who consistently score in those positions people like to call clutch are on the ice more than other players, of course they're going to score more during them. The performances of guys who score or make plays otherwise in those times are largely anomalous.
I'm talking about putting your eyes on a guy and consistently seeing a visible improvement in his game during desperate or important moments/games.

Danny Briere's play-off scoring is a good statistical example. Scoring usually goes down in the play-offs, but his ppg increases. He's money. Actually watching him play supports that. Claude Lemuix was always a clutch player.

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11-09-2010, 09:55 PM
  #158
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sweet, i hope they sign him soon!

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Old
11-09-2010, 09:59 PM
  #159
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This contract extension for Carter scares the hell out of me. I fear he will be grossly overpaid and we'll wind up with a Brian Campbell on our hands.

I hope Homer is smart about this one.

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11-09-2010, 10:30 PM
  #160
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Briere is clutch offensively but he was also responsible for a number of goals against in the playoffs. When I watched the Boston and Habs series' on NHL Network in August and September I was reminded of that. It's easy to overlook his downside when his upside is so dynamic.

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Old
11-09-2010, 10:32 PM
  #161
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My guess is 5 years 6.2 per year $8 or 9 million up front for first year.


Hartnell becomes favorite Flyer trade rumor guy in 3,2,1...

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11-09-2010, 10:38 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Jumping View Post
My guess is 5 years 6.2 per year $8 or 9 million up front for first year.


Hartnell becomes favorite Flyer trade rumor guy in 3,2,1...
Being honest, I actually like how Hartnell is playing lately. I cant really say in the last few games I have seen the stupid penalties, but he is playing hard hockey, and putting up points.

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Old
11-09-2010, 11:08 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Being honest, I actually like how Hartnell is playing lately. I cant really say in the last few games I have seen the stupid penalties, but he is playing hard hockey, and putting up points.
Most of the people on this Board know that but does the 14 to 17 demographic on the Leafs board know that?

And now that I think of it, I think there will be more rumors about JVR especially if he goes back down for a few weeks.

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Old
11-09-2010, 11:12 PM
  #164
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Well this sucks.

If he does sign for a good number of years I'm just hoping he doesnt sign a NTC/NMC.

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11-10-2010, 04:09 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 View Post
Well this sucks.

If he does sign for a good number of years I'm just hoping he doesnt sign a NTC/NMC.
Lol! We don't even know what the contract is yet. Just him being resigned in general sucks?

Haters gonna hate.

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11-10-2010, 05:37 AM
  #166
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Carle is probably the most likely trade bait if we need to clear cap room.

I really doubt Hartnell gets trade, unless JVR takes a huge step forward. Plus he has a NTC

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11-10-2010, 09:11 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I don't get why everyone wants to move Carter. The guy's a damn fine hockey player. He's a big body that can skate like the wind, plays exceptional defense and is a 40 goal scorer. You don't give those guys up. He's been misused for part of the year, but that's Laviolette's error. I seriously don't understand the Carter hate.
OK, so let's look at this rationally then. You have four centers(Carter, Richards, Briere, and Giroux) and only three positions, so someone has to move. The coach has seen them play and feels that Carter at this point is best served to be a winger and Giroux at center. So this means that Carter might not have the puck on his stick as much because Giroux is much better handling the puck than Carter.

If this means that one of the four is going to be out of position and the need is to get a winger who can play the position does it not make sense to utilize the resources you have to fill those needs?

So this pretty much leaves Briere or Carter because they are not moving El Capitan or Giroux. Briere has a NMC, so his ability to move is limited which means that the return value is limited(see Gagne who only had a NTC). So since the best player to move might be a guy looking to make $6.5mill on a team with a number of bulging contracts could it not be feasible to move that player and get a good return value? It is suggested that Carter is irreplaceable and one of the best pure scorers in the league, os he in theory should get you at least what Phil Kessel got in return?

In exchange, the Leafs sent the Bruins a first- and second-round pick in the 2010 draft, plus a first-round pick in the 2011 draft. The 21-year-old Kessel, a restricted free agent, signed a five-year, $27 million deal with the Leafs.


Maybe it is not draft picks but a natural RW who is in an entry level contract, can chip in 25-30 goals on the wing, a 1st rd draft pick who can also develop as a Flyer? Hypothetically speaking, lets say you replace Carter with a young RW who can play with Giroux and you get a mid-round pick who in 3-5 years becomes a player like Giroux, Carter, or Richards?

The Carter frenzie is all about accusing the Cartsie "haters" of wanting to get rid of him for nothing which is BS, you get value for value. If Carter's value is as high as everyone says then he should get maximum pay($7mill/yr and a multi-year deal) and his trade value should be a top 10 value in the NHL and equal to compensation of a RFA signing sheet greater than $6mill. This is not about hate and it is about trying to make the team better today and for the future.


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Old
11-10-2010, 09:16 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Jumping View Post
My guess is 5 years 6.2 per year $8 or 9 million up front for first year.


Hartnell becomes favorite Flyer trade rumor guy in 3,2,1...
I am really hoping Hartnell gets moved. To me, he is the most expendable given his cap hit. If Hartnell was getting $3 I could see keeping him, but not at $4.2, not when we have Carter and Leino to re-sign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Being honest, I actually like how Hartnell is playing lately. I cant really say in the last few games I have seen the stupid penalties, but he is playing hard hockey, and putting up points.
I just hope Hartnell is raising his trade value right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Lol! We don't even know what the contract is yet. Just him being resigned in general sucks?

Haters gonna hate.
Haha, I like Carter. His style of game is unique on this team, and I like having weapons with different playing styles. Carter's combo of Speed, Defense, and Wrist shot is unmatched on the team. Only Briere somewhat compares, and Briere cant play defense like Carter can.

My core forwards

Giroux - wizard, good at everything, insane stick skills
Richards - Hard worker, good at everything, excels at nothing, but one of the most rounded players in the game right now
Carter - good at faceoffs, very quick, good size, insane wrist shot and lighting fast in open ice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Carle is probably the most likely trade bait if we need to clear cap room.

I really doubt Hartnell gets trade, unless JVR takes a huge step forward. Plus he has a NTC
I would not mind having to sacrifice both Hartnell and Carle in order to get our forwards re-signed.

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Old
11-10-2010, 09:18 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Carle is probably the most likely trade bait if we need to clear cap room.

I really doubt Hartnell gets trade, unless JVR takes a huge step forward. Plus he has a NTC
Is that going against the theory of how Homer built this team this year, defense out? Carle has been a solid player who plays well and benefits from Pronger. Maybe if Meszaros has a good year and shows he can handle more minutes he and Carle are put out as available and Homer gets the best return for one or the other?

And Hartnell.....he has his game back, do not trade him, they need his presence at the fwd position otherwise they become even more weak on the wings along the boards and getting players to the dirty areas of the ice, if JvR flips the switch sometime soon that could really boost the strength on the LW side of the ice.

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11-10-2010, 09:27 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I am really hoping Hartnell gets moved. To me, he is the most expendable given his cap hit. If Hartnell was getting $3 I could see keeping him, but not at $4.2, not when we have Carter and Leino to re-sign.



I just hope Hartnell is raising his trade value right now.



Haha, I like Carter. His style of game is unique on this team, and I like having weapons with different playing styles. Carter's combo of Speed, Defense, and Wrist shot is unmatched on the team. Only Briere somewhat compares, and Briere cant play defense like Carter can.

My core forwards

Giroux - wizard, good at everything, insane stick skills
Richards - Hard worker, good at everything, excels at nothing, but one of the most rounded players in the game right now
Carter - good at faceoffs, very quick, good size, insane wrist shot and lighting fast in open ice



I would not mind having to sacrifice both Hartnell and Carle in order to get our forwards re-signed.
Moving Hartnell only weakens a position of weakness. Who on this team is willing to go to the net and dig for pucks? Hartnell, Leino.....Briere but he is too small, same with Giroux and you would prefer them to be feeding pucks from the boards....Richards, maybe but it is not his game. Carter, nope, he avoids this style of play, prefers the perimeter, same with JvR. Powe? Yes but again, size. To score goals from the points you need guys like Hartnell to know their role, moving him regardless of his contract would be a mistake.

And then take into consideration he has 4 goals, 5 assists(9pts) and is a +5 playing on what is the best line of this team presently and during the playoffs......uhhh, no thanks.

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11-10-2010, 09:27 AM
  #171
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Briere and Giroux can easily play wing to let Carter back at C

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11-10-2010, 09:30 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post

And Hartnell.....he has his game back, do not trade him, they need his presence at the fwd position otherwise they become even more weak on the wings along the boards and getting players to the dirty areas of the ice, if JvR flips the switch sometime soon that could really boost the strength on the LW side of the ice.
I've been a HUGE Hartnell hater over the last two years. But when he plays his game he's an essential part of this team. We have no other forward who does what he does, and it's something we need. If I could I'd add another forward that brings his skill set.

He seems to have a new attitude and I like it. I also believe (this isn't to be found in articles but I've heard it lots of places) he's been asked to waive multiple times and has always declined. So I think any talk of trading him to open space is moot.

IMO, Hartnell at 4.25, when he's playing like he currently is, is a better value than Carter at 6.5+.

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11-10-2010, 09:31 AM
  #173
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Briere and Giroux can easily play wing to let Carter back at C
I'm not sure exactly how it should work. But it's not just an issue of putting Carter at center if that's his best position. You want to get the maximum quality from those 4 players (Richards added) that you can, that MAY mean Carter on the wing even if he's better at center.

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11-10-2010, 09:36 AM
  #174
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Briere and Giroux can easily play wing to let Carter back at C
But both those players are better with the puck than Carter, thus why Laviolette has them at center and Carter on the wing. This is the coach who has made this decision, not a bunch of guys/gals speculating at where a player should play. He sees these guys play, evaluates the positions where they fit and puts them for what is best for the team.

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11-10-2010, 09:41 AM
  #175
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I've been a HUGE Hartnell hater over the last two years. But when he plays his game he's an essential part of this team. We have no other forward who does what he does, and it's something we need. If I could I'd add another forward that brings his skill set.

He seems to have a new attitude and I like it. I also believe (this isn't to be found in articles but I've heard it lots of places) he's been asked to waive multiple times and has always declined. So I think any talk of trading him to open space is moot.

IMO, Hartnell at 4.25, when he's playing like he currently is, is a better value than Carter at 6.5+.

The guy I would love to see in Philly is Simmonds from LA, he is a RW and could be a nice complement on a line with JvR-Giroux-Simmonds. Bottom line it is guys like that who also help get you production from the points too, most goalies who can see a puck from that far out will make it 10/10, put a big body in front and Pronger puts up another 10-15 goals from the defense with his shot.

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