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Carter close to signing 10-year deal (post #441 and #675); Leino update (# 675)

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11-10-2010, 11:21 AM
  #201
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Yesterday he suggested trading Carter for just picks.
Cartsiephan did?

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

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11-10-2010, 11:23 AM
  #202
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Was Carter's goal against Colorado from the perimeter? Carter has learned to deke the last couple of years. 2 years ago he couldnt score on a breakaway to save his life, and now he can usually pot one
Game one of the season? If Carter can blossom to be a solid linemate on the wing with Giroux his value to the team is solid, if not then his value decreases as to what the Flyers currently have on the roster and how he fits in if Laviolette is running Richards, Briere, and Giroux down the middle. The Powe-Giroux-Carter option at this point is a last resort, they have tried Carter on each line, at both center and the wing.

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11-10-2010, 11:26 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Cartsiephan did?

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
Yeah, he didnt say Carter by name, but he said we trade "someone" to replenish the system with picks, and I dont see who else he could be talking about

Quote:
Game one of the season? If Carter can blossom to be a solid linemate on the wing with Giroux his value to the team is solid, if not then his value decreases as to what the Flyers currently have on the roster and how he fits in if Laviolette is running Richards, Briere, and Giroux down the middle. The Powe-Giroux-Carter option at this point is a last resort, they have tried Carter on each line, at both center and the wing.
He was great at C while Briere was suspended. Honestly I want Giroux on Richards' right wing and Carter at C on his own line. (Zherdev and Powe/JVR I guess)

Richards and Giroux have such great chemistry, they should be together.


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11-10-2010, 11:28 AM
  #204
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I think what this comes down to is Carter developing as a winger. This team has 4 centers in Richards, Giroux, Briere and Betts (plus Powe in a pinch), so his future has to be as a scorer from the wing.

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11-10-2010, 11:28 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Yesterday he suggested trading Carter for just picks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Cartsiephan did?

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
Could you find that for me? Exactly when did I say picks and how many and of what kind? Offer sheet compensation?

I have stated that you get equal value for what you are giving up and in the cap NHL getting picks is usually not the deal(except for the Kessel deal which yielded the #2 pick in the draft and another #1 next season which should be a high draft pick). You have to take back some salary, period. If LA offered Simmonds, a 1st round pick this year, and a 2nd round pick next year it would certainly be something to consider.

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11-10-2010, 11:29 AM
  #206
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Only on breakaways though, he's horrible 1 on 1 against a dman. Same skate to the circle and shoot every time. That's a place where he needs to learn to drive the net.
Tough to do when you are uncomfortable carrying the puck on your backhand.... ever. Similar to Gagne, he just lacks the one-on-one moves to go around guys with much regularity. When he does, it's just off his raw speed.

Reason they should try him at LW...

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11-10-2010, 11:30 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Yeah, he didnt say Carter by name, but he said we trade "someone" to replenish the system with picks, and I dont see who else he could be talking about
Nope, I said this team needs to replenish the farm system and picks can always be useful if you draft well or get lucky like Boston and Toronto's pick. Outside of Giroux and JvR there is not one prospect in the system who could come up and play a top 6 role consistently as a scorer, and at this point JvR is still struggling to do just that.

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11-10-2010, 11:32 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Could you find that for me? Exactly when did I say picks and how many and of what kind? Offer sheet compensation?

I have stated that you get equal value for what you are giving up and in the cap NHL getting picks is usually not the deal(except for the Kessel deal which yielded the #2 pick in the draft and another #1 next season which should be a high draft pick). You have to take back some salary, period. If LA offered Simmonds, a 1st round pick this year, and a 2nd round pick next year it would certainly be something to consider.
No it wouldn't. You downgrade considerably from Carter to Simmonds, and the Kings are an up and coming young team, so you're looking at bottom half of the round picks.

You want to give up Carter for a 2nd/3rd line forward and a 20-30, and 50-60 pick?

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11-10-2010, 11:32 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Yesterday he suggested trading Carter for just picks.
Did he write "picks" or "kicks"?

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11-10-2010, 11:35 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Could you find that for me? Exactly when did I say picks and how many and of what kind? Offer sheet compensation?

I have stated that you get equal value for what you are giving up and in the cap NHL getting picks is usually not the deal(except for the Kessel deal which yielded the #2 pick in the draft and another #1 next season which should be a high draft pick). You have to take back some salary, period. If LA offered Simmonds, a 1st round pick this year, and a 2nd round pick next year it would certainly be something to consider.
You would really trade Jeff Carter for Simmonds, a 1st and a 2nd?

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11-10-2010, 11:39 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not it wouldn't. You downgrade considerably from Carter to Simmonds, and the Kings are an up and coming young team, so you're looking at bottom half of the round picks.

You want to give up Carter for a 2nd/3rd line forward and a 20-30, and 50-60 pick?
I would want to get proper value in return. Do you think LA would accept a deal for Simmonds a 1st rd pick and 2nd rd pick in 2011(we do not have a 2nd rd pick due to the Carcillo trade), and a 1st rd next year? If Carter is the best part of the deal and he has the value you suggest this should be no problem, yes? And yes, Simmonds does fit a role on this team which I think they need, size on the wing and a guy who can skate and will be a 25-25-50pt player for years to come and is under an entry level contract for @$850,000.

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11-10-2010, 11:42 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I would want to get proper value in return. Do you think LA would accept a deal for Simmonds a 1st rd pick and 2nd rd pick in 2011(we do not have a 2nd rd pick due to the Carcillo trade), and a 1st rd next year? If Carter is the best part of the deal and he has the value you suggest this should be no problem, yes? And yes, Simmonds does fit a role on this team which I think they need, size on the wing and a guy who can skate and will be a 25-25-50pt player for years to come and is under an entry level contract for @$850,000.
We don't really need size on the wing... this is a high-octane team trying to run three scoring lines, and you're trading away our best even strength scorer (true story) for a 2nd/3rd liner (who I like, but he's nothing great) and some IOUs that won't help this team much at all during our window with Pronger and Timonen.

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11-10-2010, 11:44 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
You would really trade Jeff Carter for Simmonds, a 1st and a 2nd?
Keep in mind what Boston got for Kessel. If Carter wants his long term cashout deal for anything more that $6mill and 5/yrs I would be more than willing to take that type of a deal. None of this Richards type 10yr contract prorated over the years.

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11-10-2010, 11:46 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
They aren't weak anywhere in terms of skaters. But they're a lot weaker at wing than they are at center.

Centers: Briere, Giroux, Richards, Carter
Wingers: Hartnell, JVR, Zherdev, Leino

They have 4 top-6 centers and 4-top-6 wingers. Basically every center could be a teams first line center, Leino and Hartnell are decent first liners, Zherdev and JVR are second liners.

Much stronger center group.

Not it means you trade a center because of that, but it's a factor to consider in terms of how much Carter will cost vs. how much he's worth.
^ This.....particularly the last sentence.

You have to analyze this situation in the context of Holmgren's philosophy and whether that philosophy is correct or flawed. He has gone on record as saying you can never have enough depth at center which is true especially given injuries. This year he also stacked the D because he also believes in depth at the D position which I'm not against either necessarily especially come playoffs. However, this is all about balance not only financially (cap) but how the team is constituted. So far Lavy is doing a pretty good job trying to keep things balanced and the injuries to the core players have been limited thus far. Right now Carter isn't adjusting too well to adapting to the wing even though it's his "turn" per Lavy's actions. This is putting a crimp on assessing Carter's worth at present. If there is an injury to any of our centers then Carter's worth becomes less of an issue but again what is the price you are willing to pay to continue to have that depth at center particularly if the wings go into a funk and you are not getting enough production? This is what killed Pitt in the playoffs. They are still having issues with having so much money tied up down the middle and with core players although at least 3 of the 4 (Crosby, Malkin and Staal) are head and shoulders above our core. Sometimes you have too much "insurance" or you are paying too much. That's kind of the situation with Carter given his inability to adapt to the wing thus far.

Personally, if the wings particularly JVR and Zherdev continue to be questionable and if you think they will be soft in the playoffs..then you will have to shore things up. Obviously, your chip to leverage is still Carter...not based on the tired old supress discussion use of the word "hate" but purely business. Having said this, it probably makes more sense to decrease your insurance premium and coverage on D since we have some prospects in the system to fill in the void adequately. Carle is an obvious choice to move but you can only get so much from moving him where you can address multiple needs with a Carter move including a pick for the future and for helping with the cap. Again though this all comes down to what is a fair price for Carter contract wise. No more and no less.....

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11-10-2010, 11:50 AM
  #215
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If Carter would only return Simmonds, a 1st and a 2nd, I'd pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan
Keep in mind what Boston got for Kessel. If Carter wants his long term cashout deal for anything more that $6mill and 5/yrs I would be more than willing to take that type of a deal. None of this Richards type 10yr contract prorated over the years.
The difference is that the Bruins could expect a relatively early 1st and must have been thrilled with #2 overall but a Kings 1st / 2nd would be probably mid- to late in these rounds. Isn't the next draft crop supposed to be pretty mediocre?

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11-10-2010, 11:50 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Keep in mind what Boston got for Kessel. If Carter wants his long term cashout deal for anything more that $6mill and 5/yrs I would be more than willing to take that type of a deal. None of this Richards type 10yr contract prorated over the years.
No, don't keep in mind what Boston got for Kessel. That was a brutal trade and everyone is aware it was a brutal trade. Toronto got hosed, and Burke F'd up something fierce.

That's an example GMs will learn from and weak teams aren't going to set themselves up to be a lottery team and miss out on a potential stud on an ELC (let alone two).

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11-10-2010, 11:50 AM
  #217
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I don't understand why everyone is arguing about trading him or not. If you read the article, it says that the Flyers are close to signing him to a long-term deal. That means that they will NOT be trading him and that a deal will be done in the near future.

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11-10-2010, 11:53 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We don't really need size on the wing... this is a high-octane team trying to run three scoring lines, and you're trading away our best even strength scorer (true story) for a 2nd/3rd liner (who I like, but he's nothing great) and some IOUs that won't help this team much at all during our window with Pronger and Timonen.
Leino-Briere-Hartnell may disagree with this and Betts has found hiself some timely offense. I agree that I do not want to just trade away a kid who has shown the ability to score in bunches, he is a good player, I am only saying that if things move along and he does not fit cap wise or position wise it is going to be something the organization may need to address.

I do not think blindly giving Carter a contract is necessarily the best way to go especially with Parise a RFA during this offseason as well. Those two will set the market price for eachother. And I am all for keeping Carter around for the year, but from the looks of things it is going to be on the wing, maybe LW would be better suited for him because of how he shoots and where his go-to spot on the ice is(inside the faceoff dots). This is where Giroux can be a great help to Carter because he can break down the defense, make them collapse and drop a soft pass to Carter for a shot through traffic.

Don't get me wrong, Carter is on the team and I want him to do well because that means more success for the Flyers, but all options should be considered when looking to keep him or trade him. He is the Flyers most valuable asset in many different ways.

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11-10-2010, 11:55 AM
  #219
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I don't understand why everyone is arguing about trading him or not. If you read the article, it says that the Flyers are close to signing him to a long-term deal. That means that they will NOT be trading him and that a deal will be done in the near future.
The discussion is about whether it will be the right move and for the right cost not whether the move will be made or not. Even if it's made ..unless he has a NTC/NMC he can still be leveraged whether one agrees with doing so or not.

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11-10-2010, 11:56 AM
  #220
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^ This.....particularly the last sentence.

You have to analyze this situation in the context of Holmgren's philosophy and whether that philosophy is correct or flawed. He has gone on record as saying you can never have enough depth at center which is true especially given injuries. This year he also stacked the D because he also believes in depth at the D position which I'm not against either necessarily especially come playoffs. However, this is all about balance not only financially (cap) but how the team is constituted. So far Lavy is doing a pretty good job trying to keep things balanced and the injuries to the core players have been limited thus far. Right now Carter isn't adjusting too well to adapting to the wing even though it's his "turn" per Lavy's actions. This is putting a crimp on assessing Carter's worth at present. If there is an injury to any of our centers then Carter's worth becomes less of an issue but again what is the price you are willing to pay to continue to have that depth at center particularly if the wings go into a funk and you are not getting enough production? This is what killed Pitt in the playoffs. They are still having issues with having so much money tied up down the middle and with core players although at least 3 of the 4 (Crosby, Malkin and Staal) are head and shoulders above our core. Sometimes you have too much "insurance" or you are paying too much. That's kind of the situation with Carter given his inability to adapt to the wing thus far.

Personally, if the wings particularly JVR and Zherdev continue to be questionable and if you think they will be soft in the playoffs..then you will have to shore things up. Obviously, your chip to leverage is still Carter...not based on the tired old supress discussion use of the word "hate" but purely business. Having said this, it probably makes more sense to decrease your insurance premium and coverage on D since we have some prospects in the system to fill in the void adequately. Carle is an obvious choice to move but you can only get so much from moving him where you can address multiple needs with a Carter move including a pick for the future and for helping with the cap. Again though this all comes down to what is a fair price for Carter contract wise. No more and no less.....
Very well said. I have nothing to say.

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11-10-2010, 11:59 AM
  #221
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I don't understand why everyone is arguing about trading him or not. If you read the article, it says that the Flyers are close to signing him to a long-term deal. That means that they will NOT be trading him and that a deal will be done in the near future.
I think the trade angle is an important one to consider, and should be by Paul Holmgren because he can't get caught with his shorts around his ankles if a deal falls through. A GM worth his salary would have a decent idea of the value of his players to other teams, and if Carter and his agent dug in for more money and/or a longer deal than what he can afford, Holmgren should be able to pull Plan B out of his top drawer.

This shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction. There's no reason why conversations negotiations with Carter's agent and testing the waters with other GMs cannot be going on simultaneously, and indeed they should. It's just good asset management to plan out the if/then's even if your first hope is to get the player signed.

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11-10-2010, 12:00 PM
  #222
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The discussion is about whether it will be the right move and for the right cost not whether the move will be made or not. Even if it's made ..unless he has a NTC/NMC he can still be leveraged whether one agrees with doing so or not.
They may be talking but this may also give Homer the edge is Carters agent is trying to price him out of the market. I am sure at the very least Carters agent is looking at Richards deal and Briere's deal and saying this is the type of deal they would want, in which case I would hope Homer has the patience to wait it out. They may be talking but not agreeing on the terms. Very unlikely that they sign and trade, that is more of an NBA move due to the CBA agreement.

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11-10-2010, 12:01 PM
  #223
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I think the trade angle is an important one to consider, and should be by Paul Holmgren because he can't get caught with his shorts around his ankles if a deal falls through. A GM worth his salary would have a decent idea of the value of his players to other teams, and if Carter and his agent dug in for more money and/or a longer deal than what he can afford, Holmgren should be able to pull Plan B out of his top drawer.

This shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction. There's no reason why conversations negotiations with Carter's agent and testing the waters with other GMs cannot be going on simultaneously, and indeed they should. It's just good asset management to plan out the if/then's even if your first hope is to get the player signed.

I don't disagree with any of you about this stuff. What I'm trying to say is, this means that the Flyers have decided that they are going to sign him and not trade him. Maybe they will trade him after they sign him but for now they are choosing to sign him to a long-term deal. It sounds to me like people are still wishing they they won't.

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11-10-2010, 12:04 PM
  #224
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Leino-Briere-Hartnell may disagree with this and Betts has found hiself some timely offense.
...seriously? I stopped reading there, rest was invalidated. In his entire career, Briere has never touched the even strength goal scoring that Carter has put up consistently the last couple of years.

His BEST season ever was 23 ES goals in '06-'07. Carter has popped 20+ in each of the last three years.

Outside of two years ago, when Carter was ruining Hartnell's season, Hartnell has been a 12-13 ES goal guy... he had 23 with Carter centering him. God Carter brings guys down.

Leino wasn't a big goal scorer in Finland (outside of one year)... so I'll hold off there.

Giroux, our new savior, has 16 career ES goals in 141 games (just 1 this year).

Mike Richards' career high is 17... and he isn't going to touch that if he keeps centering the guys he's been saddled with the last couple of years.

So, sure, talk about trading Carter... but understand you're talking about trading our best even strength scorer. One of the reasons this team has been so PP dependent the last few years, is that a lot of our guys are far more effective as PP players offensively than they are at ES.

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11-10-2010, 12:10 PM
  #225
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...seriously? I stopped reading there, rest was invalidated. In his entire career, Briere has never touched the even strength goal scoring that Carter has put up consistently the last couple of years.

His BEST season ever was 23 ES goals in '06-'07. Carter has popped 20+ in each of the last three years.

Outside of two years ago, when Carter was ruining Hartnell's season, Hartnell has been a 12-13 ES goal guy... he had 23 with Carter centering him. God Carter brings guys down.

Leino wasn't a big goal scorer in Finland (outside of one year)... so I'll hold off there.

Giroux, our new savior, has 16 career ES goals in 141 games (just 1 this year).

Mike Richards' career high is 17... and he isn't going to touch that if he keeps centering the guys he's been saddled with the last couple of years.

So, sure, talk about trading Carter... but understand you're talking about trading our best even strength scorer. One of the reasons this team has been so PP dependent the last few years, is that a lot of our guys are far more effective as PP players offensively than they are at ES.
Sometimes the best even strength lines are the ones that play as a unit, thus why each one of them have such a high +/- rating. Leino= +6, Hartnell= +5, Briere= +4. The anomoly that is the LBH line is that as individual pieces they are not very good defensively, but together they get the job done as a unti. Breire is still not as good as Carter individually, but he has a unit which helps eachother stay positive.

Oh, and last year Carter led the team with 20 esg, Briere second with 18esg, 74 and 75 games each respectively.

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