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Carter close to signing 10-year deal (post #441 and #675); Leino update (# 675)

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Old
11-10-2010, 01:15 PM
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Sometimes the best even strength lines are the ones that play as a unit, thus why each one of them have such a high +/- rating. Leino= +6, Hartnell= +5, Briere= +4. The anomoly that is the LBH line is that as individual pieces they are not very good defensively, but together they get the job done as a unti. Breire is still not as good as Carter individually, but he has a unit which helps eachother stay positive.

What that line did in the playoffs and so far in the early part of this season is that as a unit they force the other team to react b/c they are so potent offensively. They are the epitome as a unit as you say of your offense being your best defense. Lavy recognizes it and it plays right into his system that is why he values that line and doesn't want to break it up. People who talk about trading any individual component of that line despite the "individual" flaws is a effin retard IMO and doesn't understand the importance of systems and continuity......

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11-10-2010, 01:17 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Sometimes the best even strength lines are the ones that play as a unit, thus why each one of them have such a high +/- rating. Leino= +6, Hartnell= +5, Briere= +4. The anomoly that is the LBH line is that as individual pieces they are not very good defensively, but together they get the job done as a unti. Breire is still not as good as Carter individually, but he has a unit which helps eachother stay positive.

Oh, and last year Carter led the team with 20 esg, Briere second with 18esg, 74 and 75 games each respectively.
I know... Briere was really struggling with Carter centering him, huh?

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11-10-2010, 01:19 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
What that line did in the playoffs and so far in the early part of this season is that as a unit they force the other team to react b/c they are so potent offensively. They are the epitome as a unit as you say of your offense being your best defense. Lavy recognizes it and it plays right into his system that is why he values that line and doesn't want to break it up. People who talk about trading any individual component of that line despite the "individual" flaws is a effin retard IMO and doesn't understand the importance of systems and continuity......
Watching that line play is like watching old school hockey where the object was to get the puck in deep and just keep rotating the play along the boards, eventually you get a mismatch or Briere gets the puck alone behind the net which is his best place to be on the ice. It really works when you can get the right pieces together. Leino has been huge for this because he has that ability to just hold the puck and be patient.

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11-10-2010, 01:20 PM
  #229
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But Briere flourished with Leino and Hartnell..I think that is the point and again that line epitomizes Lavy's system because of the chemistry they have. All of them like playing with each other....hence their success thus far. Hopefully it continues

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11-10-2010, 01:24 PM
  #230
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The only people who think that Carter sucks are Flyers fans.

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11-10-2010, 01:24 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I know... Briere was really struggling with Carter centering him, huh?
Yes, because we know Carter just makes everyone better, and there was also a significant amount time where they were not paired together so unless you can provide me a game by game summary I will take that Carter makes Briere better than Leino and Hartnell make Briere better I will take it with a grain of salt. No one is saying Carter is not the best thing since sliced bread, but lets not go overboard here....if he is your top scorer should he not probably also have the highest amount of esg's most likely?

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11-10-2010, 01:25 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
But Briere flourished with Leino and Hartnell..I think that is the point and again that line epitomizes Lavy's system because of the chemistry they have. All of them like playing with each other....hence their success thus far. Hopefully it continues
I would love to see if JvR-Giroux-Carter could develop some chemistry, just not sure if it would work?

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11-10-2010, 01:34 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yes, because we know Carter just makes everyone better, and there was also a significant amount time where they were not paired together so unless you can provide me a game by game summary I will take that Carter makes Briere better than Leino and Hartnell make Briere better I will take it with a grain of salt. No one is saying Carter is not the best thing since sliced bread, but lets not go overboard here....if he is your top scorer should he not probably also have the highest amount of esg's most likely?
Carter has consistently produced the most ESGs the last few years. So, yes, he has come through on yet another silly claim by you.

As to the shift chart... I bet you figured I couldn't get you that?

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

Briere took roughly 70% of his shifts last year with Jeff Carter... and performed quite well.

Now, I have no problem with keeping together Briere's line as long as they keep scoring and avoiding the minus black hole that Briere can be... but let it not be said that Briere struggled at even strength last year, because he didn't.

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11-10-2010, 01:42 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The only people who think that Carter sucks are Flyers fans.
Make that 1 flyers "phan"!

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11-10-2010, 01:48 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I would love to see if JvR-Giroux-Carter could develop some chemistry, just not sure if it would work?
Giroux seems to have amazing chemistry with Richards. Just look at the PK and PP. It seems they always know where each other is.

We need to test these lineups.

Hartnell - Briere - Leino
JVR - Richards - Giroux
Z - Carter - Powe/Nodl
Carcillo - Betts - Powe/Nodl
Shelly

Z and Carter create their own chances, so they just need someone willing to go into the corners to get the puck.

Richards and Giroux set each other up nicely and they usually fight for the puck, all they need is for someone to head to the net and finish off rebounds. Hopefully JVR can get the confidence to drive the net.

We all know how the Briere line works.

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11-10-2010, 01:52 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter has consistently produced the most ESGs the last few years. So, yes, he has come through on yet another silly claim by you.

As to the shift chart... I bet you figured I couldn't get you that?

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

Briere took roughly 70% of his shifts last year with Jeff Carter... and performed quite well.

Now, I have no problem with keeping together Briere's line as long as they keep scoring and avoiding the minus black hole that Briere can be... but let it not be said that Briere struggled at even strength last year, because he didn't.
The sad part is that I already posted this stuff and the ESG stats yesterday bu CP still ignored them. Carter has been out best ES line for the last 3 years ( Hartnell/JVR-Carter-Briere, Hartnell-Carter-Lupul, and Upshall-Carter-Knuble)

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11-10-2010, 01:56 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Giroux seems to have amazing chemistry with Richards. Just look at the PK and PP. It seems they always know where each other is.

We need to test these lineups.

Hartnell - Briere - Leino
JVR - Richards - Giroux
Z - Carter - Powe/Nodl
Carcillo - Betts - Powe/Nodl
Shelly

Z and Carter create their own chances, so they just need someone willing to go into the corners to get the puck.

Richards and Giroux set each other up nicely and they usually fight for the puck, all they need is for someone to head to the net and finish off rebounds. Hopefully JVR can get the confidence to drive the net.

We all know how the Briere line works.
Yeah, and Giroux has looked good on Richards' wing in the past... just neutered by Gagne and/or them moving on too quickly. I would also be curious how Z-Richards-Giroux would work, with JVR mucking around on Carter's left.

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11-10-2010, 01:58 PM
  #238
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Ok, so what's he worth? How much is he going to sign an extension for? That's all I'm worried about.

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11-10-2010, 02:02 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Ok, so what's he worth? How much is he going to sign an extension for? That's all I'm worried about.
5 years $30M is what I'm kind of expecting... if they go longer than that, maybe bring down the cap hit.

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11-10-2010, 02:03 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The only people who think that Carter sucks are Flyers fans.
If someone knew wouldn't it be us?

I certainly don't think he sucks, but if you look at other sitauations it's not at all uncommon for there to be one perception for the team's fan base and another in the league. Often the perception of the fan base is correct because they see the player so much more. Donovan McNabb is a pretty good example.

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11-10-2010, 02:05 PM
  #241
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I think what this comes down to is Carter developing as a winger. This team has 4 centers in Richards, Giroux, Briere and Betts (plus Powe in a pinch), so his future has to be as a scorer from the wing.
We might have to agree to disagree, but absolutely not do you force Carter to be a scorer on the wing.

Everyone here talks about trading Carter for the future and how awesome Briere is at center. Well guess what, Briere is 33, small, and has an consider games lost due to injury the past few seasons. I dont see how he can be slotted down the middle "longterm" as pretty soon, his deteriation is going to make him a bad winger and an ever WORSE center. He already cant play defense. As his offense disappears, he will literally be worthless.

Even in games where Carter is not scoring he is taking shots that any Flyer who drives the net can hit it, he screens the goalies (as mentioned in this thread, Carters injuries have come off slappers he has blocked or slappers he got in the way of while we were in the offensive zone), and he plays defense.

Longterm and 33 year old who doesnt play defense doesnt spell success at Center to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Sometimes the best even strength lines are the ones that play as a unit, thus why each one of them have such a high +/- rating. Leino= +6, Hartnell= +5, Briere= +4. The anomoly that is the LBH line is that as individual pieces they are not very good defensively, but together they get the job done as a unti. Breire is still not as good as Carter individually, but he has a unit which helps eachother stay positive.

Oh, and last year Carter led the team with 20 esg, Briere second with 18esg, 74 and 75 games each respectively.
The HBL line is nice for now, but how can you plan longterm to keep a line that consists of a 33 year old center and a streaky LW who has never had 60 points in a season anywhere but on Carter's wing? If anything, keep Carter longterm and put Briere back at wing when Leino inevitably walks this offseason or you trade Hartnell for whatever this offseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Game one of the season? If Carter can blossom to be a solid linemate on the wing with Giroux his value to the team is solid, if not then his value decreases as to what the Flyers currently have on the roster and how he fits in if Laviolette is running Richards, Briere, and Giroux down the middle. The Powe-Giroux-Carter option at this point is a last resort, they have tried Carter on each line, at both center and the wing.
Carter is a solid Center. The 2nd best on the team. Funny that he isnt good enough for you.

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11-10-2010, 02:13 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter has consistently produced the most ESGs the last few years. So, yes, he has come through on yet another silly claim by you.

As to the shift chart... I bet you figured I couldn't get you that?

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

Briere took roughly 70% of his shifts last year with Jeff Carter... and performed quite well.

Now, I have no problem with keeping together Briere's line as long as they keep scoring and avoiding the minus black hole that Briere can be... but let it not be said that Briere struggled at even strength last year, because he didn't.

Actually that is a great find, I have been trying to find shift logs since they disappeared off of NHL.com a little while back.

And to counter your argument I have no problem keeping the Giroux-Carter combination together so long as Carter stays on wing with Giroux controlling the center of the ice. And on the last part did Briere struggle at even strength or was he second on esg's to Carter? You cannot use one fact to support your argument and not use it for the opposite argument, or is this all about Carter making his linemates better by covering for them and scoring goals for them as well?

And lastly, I am not opposed to keeping Carter so long as it is a rational deal going forward....meaning a 5 year, $6mill/yr deal and no clauses. Otherwise where does he fit? He is still a RFA and the Flyers can get compensation if necessary.

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11-10-2010, 02:16 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The only people who think that Carter sucks are Flyers fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof View Post
Make that 1 flyers "phan"!
Love how if you question what would be the best at the cost of moving a player to maybe better the organization long term it is not being a "phan".

Like lemmings to the sea.

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11-10-2010, 02:22 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Giroux seems to have amazing chemistry with Richards. Just look at the PK and PP. It seems they always know where each other is.

We need to test these lineups.

Hartnell - Briere - Leino
JVR - Richards - Giroux
Z - Carter - Powe/Nodl
Carcillo - Betts - Powe/Nodl
Shelly

Z and Carter create their own chances, so they just need someone willing to go into the corners to get the puck.

Richards and Giroux set each other up nicely and they usually fight for the puck, all they need is for someone to head to the net and finish off rebounds. Hopefully JVR can get the confidence to drive the net.

We all know how the Briere line works.


Have no problem with that setup, but you are doing two things: 1) moving a guy who is most creative in the center ice to the boards where he cannot control as much of the play and putting the puck on a stick of a guy who has developed some bad habits of trying to make passes that are not in his game, 2) Zherdev and Carter are extremely streaky scorers, they will put up some points but a lot of times they are 6-2 games where they get 3pts in the game, thus when they are hot, they get really hot, but when cold, think Antarctica cold, and Powe would be nothing more than a garbage man which is fine, fits his skillset.

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11-10-2010, 02:25 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Love how if you question what would be the best at the cost of moving a player to maybe better the organization long term it is not being a "phan".

Like lemmings to the sea.
I don't think that's it. It's your overzealous pursuit of denigrating one of the better players on the team and your subsequent insults (both indirect and direct) of anyone countering your position that make folks question your fan allegiance.

That's an awfully wide brush you got there, generalizing anyone who dares disagree with you. Your lack of respect towards those who disagree results in responses of equal disrespect.

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11-10-2010, 02:30 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post


Carter is a solid Center. The 2nd best on the team. Funny that he isnt good enough for you.
OK, I'll bite....then why does the coach have him playing wing next to Giroux? Not me in fantasy land, but the coach. And why does he have Giroux taking twice as many faceoffs? Yes Carter is the best faceoff player on the team but yet he defers to others.

And BTW, Richards is at 47.6% with the most amount of faceoffs taken, time to get Clarkie back out on the ice to give some lessons.

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11-10-2010, 02:31 PM
  #247
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5 years $30M is what I'm kind of expecting... if they go longer than that, maybe bring down the cap hit.
Oh man, I hope you're right. I was starting to think I was crazy for even hoping for a 6m cap hit. I would not be happy with 6.5 or above on the cap. I hope Homer doesn't go crazy.

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11-10-2010, 02:44 PM
  #248
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I don't think that's it. It's your overzealous pursuit of denigrating one of the better players on the team and your subsequent insults (both indirect and direct) of anyone countering your position that make folks question your fan allegiance.

That's an awfully wide brush you got there, generalizing anyone who dares disagree with you. Your lack of respect towards those who disagree results in responses of equal disrespect.
This is a discussion, not a winner of an argument. If someone wants to counter my questions about the issues that is what a forum is about, you can disagree and have your point of view, I have no problem with that. The blind loyalty and lemming mentality I do find kind of funny, but to each their own. And lack of respect? Seriously. I am not here to be friends, just offer a possible differing opinion, period. Call me a hater, so what, I just speak exactly what I think.

Oh, and denigrating one of the better players on the team? Be honest now, you have #17 sown on the back of your jersey, be honest now.

Game 6 in the 1987 playoffs, section 204, first playoff game I ever saw. My dad was a season ticket holder from 1974-1989, been there done that, yup I have no opinion of expectations of the organization because I am not loyal to #17.

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11-10-2010, 02:49 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
I don't think that's it. It's your overzealous pursuit of denigrating one of the better players on the team and your subsequent insults (both indirect and direct) of anyone countering your position that make folks question your fan allegiance.

That's an awfully wide brush you got there, generalizing anyone who dares disagree with you. Your lack of respect towards those who disagree results in responses of equal disrespect.
I don't think he's disrespected anyone here. He's made counter arguments with what he believes. If it doesn't mesh with your thinking, it's not called disresepct, just a differing opinion. And that's ok.

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11-10-2010, 02:50 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
This is a discussion, not a winner of an argument. If someone wants to counter my questions about the issues that is what a forum is about, you can disagree and have your point of view, I have no problem with that. The blind loyalty and lemming mentality I do find kind of funny, but to each their own. And lack of respect? Seriously. I am not here to be friends, just offer a possible differing opinion, period. Call me a hater, so what, I just speak exactly what I think.

Oh, and denigrating one of the better players on the team? Be honest now, you have #17 sown on the back of your jersey, be honest now.

Game 6 in the 1987 playoffs, section 204, first playoff game I ever saw. My dad was a season ticket holder from 1974-1989, been there done that, yup I have no opinion of expectations of the organization because I am not loyal to #17.
It is quite apparent from the criticisms of this team on these boards that there are not many blind loyalists. Blind haters, yes.

I do not even own a Carter jersey. You want honest? I wear my orange #20 Poulin with the C on it.

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