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Carter close to signing 10-year deal (post #441 and #675); Leino update (# 675)

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Old
11-11-2010, 08:43 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So Carter sucks because you don't think he will ever win a Cup? Well, I guess Lindros was actually pretty ****** then. Silly me, I thought he was really good all along.

As for Carter doing well...I get the feeling that unless he scores at least one goal per game, you'd still consider him to be garbage.
It is my opinion from watching Carter play that he is not a big game type of player, when the playoffs come and the games get tighter Carter gets shut down which means his game is limited to faceoffs and defense but you are paying him to be an elite scorer. If your expectation is to win a Wales Conference Trophy than great, but the goal should be to get over the hump and win Lord Stanley's Cup. Lindros was a great player in his own right, but he never won a Cup. Joe Thorton has won scoring titles, but never made a SCF's. Great players can statistically be good but never win the ultimate Holy Grail in the NHL.

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11-11-2010, 08:44 AM
  #277
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you know what helps the team the most? not trading carter.

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11-11-2010, 08:47 AM
  #278
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It is my opinion from watching Carter play that he is not a big game type of player, when the playoffs come and the games get tighter Carter gets shut down which means his game is limited to faceoffs and defense but you are paying him to be an elite scorer. If your expectation is to win a Wales Conference Trophy than great, but the goal should be to get over the hump and win Lord Stanley's Cup. Lindros was a great player in his own right, but he never won a Cup. Joe Thorton has won scoring titles, but never made a SCF's. Great players can statistically be good but never win the ultimate Holy Grail in the NHL.
OV and Crosby also get shut down. so did Chicago's top line. the defense focuses on the top players, and that makes it extremely difficult for them to produce. you sound like you want to ditch Carter for...who? an early 90's Mario? There isn't anybody in the league who can overcome that right now.

edit: so, trading a player who gets shut down when the other team focuses their D on him for another player who experiences the same thing...accomplishes what?


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11-11-2010, 08:55 AM
  #279
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you know what helps the team the most? not trading carter.
that depends on what type of return you can get for him. I just hope Shooter doesnt pay him more than 6mm. I wouldnt. Richards is the benchmark unless your talking about a special player. Cartert is good but not special.

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11-11-2010, 08:58 AM
  #280
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that depends on what type of return you can get for him. I just hope Shooter doesnt pay him more than 6mm. I wouldnt. Richards is the benchmark unless your talking about a special player. Cartert is good but not special.
if you were going for Cartard, that's pretty amusing.

I agree there. over 6 is an overpayment, especially considering what richie gets. as for return, i dont think it'd be worth it. we'd get either prospects who may or may not be anything, and likely wont be as good, or a player who isn't as good. there isn't going to be a straight up trade for a bobby ryan or someone like that. other teams and their fans actually want to hold on to their carteresque players.

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11-11-2010, 09:11 AM
  #281
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you know what helps the team the most? not trading carter.
That is your opinion, which if perfectly fine. But will this team be able to carry all that salary tied up and no one in the system? Eventually you are going to have six guys on offense and six guys on defense eating up all of your cap space and no cash left to balance out the lineup.

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OV and Crosby also get shut down. so did Chicago's top line. the defense focuses on the top players, and that makes it extremely difficult for them to produce. you sound like you want to ditch Carter for...who? an early 90's Mario? There isn't anybody in the league who can overcome that right now.

edit: so, trading a player who gets shut down when the other team focuses their D on him for another player who experiences the same thing...accomplishes what?

I am not saying that Carter is not a player who other teams single out and look to defend, moreso than Richards, but right now I do not think teams fear Carter every night, whereas a guy like Giroux they do because he can beat you in so many ways. I have said this before, the more successful Carter is the better the chances they make the playoffs and can go far, but if the negotiations become an overpayment you have to look at options to help improve your team by addressing other needs and counting on the guys you have to produce. In hockey it is more true than most any other sport........the sum of the parts if greater than the whole. Look at Chicago last season, they had ONE 30 goal scorer(Kane) and then balanced it out with depth.

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11-11-2010, 09:14 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
if you were going for Cartard, that's pretty amusing.

I agree there. over 6 is an overpayment, especially considering what richie gets. as for return, i dont think it'd be worth it. we'd get either prospects who may or may not be anything, and likely wont be as good, or a player who isn't as good. there isn't going to be a straight up trade for a bobby ryan or someone like that. other teams and their fans actually want to hold on to their carteresque players.
No just type fast and donít check spelling.

With a cap the return on players I agree isnít going to be what you expect. If you received 2 solid wingers, one a 2nd line and another a 3rd line along with top prospect or a 1st you have to consider it. Many disagree, sometimes though your moving the better player you can improve your team. I dont care if they keep him or move him as long as they donít overpay. Carter and Hartnell, especially Carter just always leave me wanting more.

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11-11-2010, 09:16 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
if you were going for Cartard, that's pretty amusing.

I agree there. over 6 is an overpayment, especially considering what richie gets. as for return, i dont think it'd be worth it. we'd get either prospects who may or may not be anything, and likely wont be as good, or a player who isn't as good. there isn't going to be a straight up trade for a bobby ryan or someone like that. other teams and their fans actually want to hold on to their carteresque players.
Ollie Jokinen has been traded five times. Joe Thornton has been traded once. Dany Heatley has been traded three times. Good players get moved all the time, especially when you have a team who could possibly shed a Carter and still be a very good hockey team.

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11-11-2010, 09:22 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
No just type fast and donít check spelling.

With a cap the return on players I agree isnít going to be what you expect. If you received 2 solid wingers, one a 2nd line and another a 3rd line along with top prospect or a 1st you have to consider it. Many disagree, sometimes though your moving the better player you can improve your team. I dont care if they keep him or move him as long as they donít overpay. Carter and Hartnell, especially Carter just always leave me wanting more.
People can criticize Hartnell for coming up small last season, but once the Leino-Briere-Hartnell line took the ice they have been the most dominant line to contend with. Sometimes it is not shear talent alone that wins, it is a team playing together and having the chemistry to cover eachothers weaknesses. I think Hartnell and Leino combined make Briere a better player.

I also think that Carter could play with those two as well, but if you are looking to trade Briere you are talking about a pure salary dump because of his NMC and years left on his contract. If you shed Briere it would work, but as I have said it is not utilizing your assets properly because much like Gagne you will most likely get garbage in return and Briere will pick where he wants to go and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.

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11-11-2010, 09:23 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
if you were going for Cartard, that's pretty amusing.

I agree there. over 6 is an overpayment, especially considering what richie gets. as for return, i dont think it'd be worth it. we'd get either prospects who may or may not be anything, and likely wont be as good, or a player who isn't as good. there isn't going to be a straight up trade for a bobby ryan or someone like that. other teams and their fans actually want to hold on to their carteresque players.
You realize Richards signed a 12-year cap friendly deal, right?

Richie's actual salary this season and the next 3

2010-11 $6,400,000
2011-12 $6,600,000
2012-13 $8,400,000
2013-14 $7,600,000

Carter asking for $7 each year for the next 3 is not completely unreasonable. Would I give it to him? No, but $6.25 or $6.5 is fair (granted I'd rather he get $6 or $6.2 or something).

There are more then enough teams who would happily pay Carter $6.5, and he knows it.

If he is willing to take $6 or $6.25, you happily give it to him, especially since Briere is 33 and one of Z or Leino is most certainly departing this offseason.

Keep the best players (Richards, Carter, Giroux) and fill in the wingers as best you can. We got Z for nothing and Leino for next to nothing (OKT ROFL!!).

There is no reason we can't continue to find good wingers willing to play with one of our 3 awesome centers for cheap.

Heck, I'd happily trade Hartnell for picks or Simmonds for cap space. The amount of idiot penalties will drop and JVR gets increased ice time to learn how to be a better power forward (an offseason move however).

Resorting to cheap wingers means we can keep our D, centers and Bob together for awhile. We have youth at all the KEY positions. With this core, we can be a serious contenders for years.

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11-11-2010, 09:27 AM
  #286
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that depends on what type of return you can get for him. I just hope Shooter doesnt pay him more than 6mm. I wouldnt. Richards is the benchmark unless your talking about a special player. Cartert is good but not special.
This is exactly how I feel, he's not a break-the-bank player...yet. Granted he is going on 26 and may become an untouchable, but I don't see the need to blow up your cap situation right now. Hopefully the extension is modest and doesn't hurt our chances at keeping the roster intact.

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11-11-2010, 09:28 AM
  #287
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People can criticize Hartnell for coming up small last season, but once the Leino-Briere-Hartnell line took the ice they have been the most dominant line to contend with. Sometimes it is not shear talent alone that wins, it is a team playing together and having the chemistry to cover eachothers weaknesses. I think Hartnell and Leino combined make Briere a better player.

I also think that Carter could play with those two as well, but if you are looking to trade Briere you are talking about a pure salary dump because of his NMC and years left on his contract. If you shed Briere it would work, but as I have said it is not utilizing your assets properly because much like Gagne you will most likely get garbage in return and Briere will pick where he wants to go and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.
I like Briere and all, but he is a long term contract at 33 with a HUGE cap hit.

It might be the number cruncher in me, but I'd ABSOLUTELY trade Briere tomorrow if I got even a decent offer (2nd round pick) and he was willing to go.

Granted the above statement might get a lot of hate, Briere is locked into a NMC with a $6.5 mill cap hit until 2015. 2015!!!!

He is going to be worth that cap hit for how much longer? The rest of this season? Part of next season? Less if he gets hurt? I like Briere and we are on a ROLL right now, but I absolutely dump that contract if possible. Simply for the longterm viability of the club. (I absolutely can not justify going for it all this year at the cost of the next 5. Timonen and Pronger are both signed longterm also, and they are 35. We absolutely NEED to shed one of these 3 contracts and FAST).

And you might want to look at Gagne now, Cartsiephan, his career might be over sooner then later.

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11-11-2010, 09:31 AM
  #288
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There is no reason we can't continue to find good wingers willing to play with one of our 3 awesome centers for cheap.
I think there's a team across the other side of the state who would whole heartily disagree with you on that one.

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11-11-2010, 09:32 AM
  #289
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that depends on what type of return you can get for him. I just hope Shooter doesnt pay him more than 6mm. I wouldnt. Richards is the benchmark unless your talking about a special player. Cartert is good but not special.
As noted above, the Richards deal is NOT a benchmark for anything. He signed a 12-year contract, and, therefore, what he's making AAV cannot be measured against a "normal" contract.

So, for a 5-year contract (what I would like to see them offer Carter), the benchmark is 7.12M a year according to you.

I really want Carter, but I don't want him at 7.12M a year.

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11-11-2010, 09:33 AM
  #290
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I like Briere and all, but he is a long term contract at 33 with a HUGE cap hit.

It might be the number cruncher in me, but I'd ABSOLUTELY trade Briere tomorrow if I got even a decent offer (2nd round pick) and he was willing to go.

Granted the above statement might get a lot of hate, Briere is locked into a NMC with a $6.5 mill cap hit until 2015. 2015!!!!

He is going to be worth that cap hit for how much longer? The rest of this season? Part of next season? Less if he gets hurt? I like Briere and we are on a ROLL right now, but I absolutely dump that contract if possible. Simply for the longterm viability of the club. (I absolutely can not justify going for it all this year at the cost of the next 5. Timonen and Pronger are both signed longterm also, and they are 35. We absolutely NEED to shed one of these 3 contracts and FAST).

And you might want to look at Gagne now, Cartsiephan, his career might be over sooner then later.
Absolutely, if you're concerned about what is best for the team in a longer window... Briere is the choice to make as far as a deal, no matter how good he's played over the last 30 games.

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11-11-2010, 09:37 AM
  #291
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I love how everyone's cap solution is to just trade Briere, AND expect something of value in return.


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11-11-2010, 09:37 AM
  #292
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I think there's a team across the other side of the state who would whole heartily disagree with you on that one.
The Penguins have roughly $22 mill tied up in their top three and we have about $12 this season tied up in ours. Big difference. Not to mention, even if Carter gets $6 and with Giroux's extention, our big three are still roughly $15.

And their troubles are more complex. Fleury is awful right now, Malkin is not playing too well and Staal has yet to play a game all year.

We had major trouble last season early and made the Stanley Cup Finals. It's not to late for Pitt or NJ to turn it around (though I sense NJ is going to suck this entire year).

Look at Pitts cup team and tell me how good their wingers were. Look at Detroit's cup team. Chicago was a much more well rounded offense though to be fair.

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11-11-2010, 09:37 AM
  #293
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Because the point is valid. The Flyers cannot afford to take on another long term contract to a player who may hold the most value at this point for something in return. Giving Carter a $6.5mill/5-10yr deal is a mistake IMHO, there are too many other needs which can be filled with a move which will yield a very high return. Disagree if you want, but this is a perfectly logical business decision that may need to be made since Leino is a valuable asset and a UFA and Homer has made a decision he wants to build from the defense out which I tend to agree with.
This is faulty logic 101. Just because Carter has the most trade value -- doesn't he have the highest trade value for a reason? -- does not mean trading him improves the Flyers. I mean, seriously, the ridiculousness of this comes back to the fact that you would serious consider Simmonds, a late 1st, and late 2nd for Carter.

I'll take the guy I can pencil in to average 35 goals a year over the next five years, thank you. We can deal one of our D.

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11-11-2010, 09:38 AM
  #294
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I love how everyone's cap solution is to just trade Briere, AND expect something of value in return.

...I'm not sure people are expecting much in return. A 2nd rd pick was just mentioned. That ain't much.

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11-11-2010, 09:39 AM
  #295
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This is faulty logic 101. Just because Carter has the most trade value -- doesn't he have the highest trade value for a reason? -- does not mean trading him improves the Flyers. I mean, seriously, the ridiculousness of this comes back to the fact that you would serious consider Simmonds, a late 1st, and late 2nd for Carter.

I'll take the guy I can pencil in to average 35 goals a year over the next five years, thank you. We can deal one of our D.
Considering we have Meszaros on our bottom pair half the time at $4, I support this idea.

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11-11-2010, 09:40 AM
  #296
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I love how everyone's cap solution is to just trade Briere, AND expect something of value in return.

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...I'm not sure people are expecting much in return. A 2nd rd pick was just mentioned. That ain't much.
In season, it's hard to trade him since we don't need the capspace NOW, but if it was the offseason, I'd trade Briere for a 7th.

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11-11-2010, 09:43 AM
  #297
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In season, it's hard to trade him since we don't need the capspace NOW, but if it was the offseason, I'd trade Briere for a 7th.
Yeah, I mean, that contract is a massive handicap and it will get worse.

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11-11-2010, 09:44 AM
  #298
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...I'm not sure people are expecting much in return. A 2nd rd pick was just mentioned. That ain't much.
Well considering Gagne netted you Walker and a 4th on an expiring, 5m cap hit, what could you possibly expect today for a 33 yo with 4 years at a 6.5m cap hit?

A 2nd round pick would be highway robbery.

ETA: Add in the NMC and you're only dealing with a couple teams that he chooses to go to. Not a postion of strength. We might have to give up picks to get out of that contract.

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11-11-2010, 09:44 AM
  #299
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im not gonna pull a jester here and multi quote, but:

1) sorry, i meant to refer to richards' cap hit. although now that the coffee is kicking in, i realize carter wouldnt give a **** about that

2) the teams that traded stars did so to build their team in a different direction. i dont think that trading carter is necessary, because i think the flyers have arrived at their destination in terms of building. the prospect pool is dry, but that will eventually be replenished, and the core of this team is actually relatively young, so i'm not concerned about that right now. so my reasoning is that trading carter would be a step backwards, and is unnecessary in the flyers case.

also, olli jokinen ****ing sucks, and that is why he and his creepy lack of eyebrows has been traded 5 times

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11-11-2010, 09:45 AM
  #300
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Its not unreasonable to think Briere could get at least a marginal return like a 2nd or 3rd and maybe a 3rd liner. But its moot since he wont waive his NMC

Quote:
Well considering Gagne netted you Walker and a 4th on an expiring, 5m cap hit, what could you possibly expect today for a 33 yo with 4 years at a 6.5m cap hit?

A 2nd round pick would be highway robbery.
Did you see what Gomez returned? Gagne return was so low because tampa was the onyl team he would waive his NTC to go to. So it would depend on how many teams Briere was willing to go to

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