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Old
11-09-2010, 07:27 PM
  #1
glenngineer
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Dumont/Trotz/Ownership

I have been thinking quite a bit about JP's situation here in Nashville. While JP got into Trotz's doghouse, how long does he need to be there? A few points here.

1. O'Brien and Vignault had a tumultuous relationship in Vancouver and unfortunately it went to the media and it went downhill fast. O'Brien was always going to be in the doghouse from what I understand because of Vignault. While the media hasn't really taken to the Dumont and Trotz situation, both have handled it with professionalism, I wonder why Trotz is holding fast to his limited playing time of Dumont. I don't fully understand. I see JP out there playing more physical, hustling, shooting the puck, manning the point defensively yet he played with Spaling and Belak the other night? I don't understand this. He had a good playoffs last year and appeared to be reborn yet this year it's back to a limited roll.

2. If I'm ownership and the GM for that matter, we're on a limited budget, playing a guy who makes $4 million dollars limited minutes while playing a guy, Smithson, who makes a quarter of the salary, more minutes. Now Smithson has a roll on this team but it's very limited. He can win faceoffs and he's good on the PK. He's a good checker when he finishes them but when was the last time he finished a check on someone? Anyone, Bueller? Anyone? If I'm ownership I'd be pretty ticked paying a guy with JP's skill set to be sitting on the bench while a guy like Smithson, who was horrible the other night defensively, is playing more minutes. While it's only about a minute more a game, it still doesn't make sense to me.

3. We're having issues defensively and offensively yet Dumont is placed on a grinder line while Smithson is placed on a top 3 line? If you place Dumont with Legwand and Ward, isn't there enough defensive responsibility with the other two guys while Dumont can get to one of the point men? Is he that bad that we have to limit his minutes?

4. I know the advantage of having Smithson and his ability to handle faceoffs but at the same time, hire Yannic Perrault and teach these guys how to win faceoffs more effectively so we don't have to see Smithson on the ice for nearly 13 minutes a night. He should be an 8-10 minute guy a night at most. His offensive skills kill any momentum we seem to establish on a nightly basis and for a team that is already offensively challenged, blowing how many opportunities nightly kills us. It's as bad as Fiddler and his penchant for going offsides.

I realize you need role players but at the same time, without a true forward superstar, we need to maximize the offensive talent we have upfront. Dumont, even with his off year last season has averaged over 60 points a year for us since he's been here. So why are we not using him more effectively? You'd think a new season and you get a fresh clean slate yet Trotz seems to be holding onto something from last year. If that was the case, shouldn't Legwand be getting limited minutes as well? I sometimes don't fully understand.

The other thing that can be touched on here as well is ownership of the power play. Trotz took over the PP and yet it is still failing. Can we not bring in a coach who knows how to handle the man advantage? Is it that hard? Watch film of other teams and see what works and doesn't work and go from there. I know we don't have the top tier talent but there are teams that have good to great power plays that use strategy and positioning and puck movement to make it work. Heck, you have a guy like Dumont is who is excellent passer that seems to get limited minutes on the PP yet Ward, who really hasn't shown much offensively this year, is out there night after night.

Trotz has his favorites and he always will yet when guys get in his doghouse, he never really lets them out again and to me it's lame because his favorites, usually the grinders, aren't the ones that need to be on the ice for extended minutes every night.

Oh well. Had to get that out.

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11-09-2010, 08:37 PM
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Dumont skated on a line with Legwand and Ward today and was also on PP2 with SK and Legwand as well.

I didn't see or listen to Saturday's game in LA, but whatever it was that put JP on a line with Belak and Spaling, it's obviously passed...

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11-09-2010, 08:56 PM
  #3
roseyc
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I have been thinking quite a bit about JP's situation here in Nashville. While JP got into Trotz's doghouse, how long does he need to be there? A few points here.

1. O'Brien and Vignault had a tumultuous relationship in Vancouver and unfortunately it went to the media and it went downhill fast. O'Brien was always going to be in the doghouse from what I understand because of Vignault. While the media hasn't really taken to the Dumont and Trotz situation, both have handled it with professionalism, I wonder why Trotz is holding fast to his limited playing time of Dumont. I don't fully understand. I see JP out there playing more physical, hustling, shooting the puck, manning the point defensively yet he played with Spaling and Belak the other night? I don't understand this. He had a good playoffs last year and appeared to be reborn yet this year it's back to a limited roll.

2. If I'm ownership and the GM for that matter, we're on a limited budget, playing a guy who makes $4 million dollars limited minutes while playing a guy, Smithson, who makes a quarter of the salary, more minutes. Now Smithson has a roll on this team but it's very limited. He can win faceoffs and he's good on the PK. He's a good checker when he finishes them but when was the last time he finished a check on someone? Anyone, Bueller? Anyone? If I'm ownership I'd be pretty ticked paying a guy with JP's skill set to be sitting on the bench while a guy like Smithson, who was horrible the other night defensively, is playing more minutes. While it's only about a minute more a game, it still doesn't make sense to me.

3. We're having issues defensively and offensively yet Dumont is placed on a grinder line while Smithson is placed on a top 3 line? If you place Dumont with Legwand and Ward, isn't there enough defensive responsibility with the other two guys while Dumont can get to one of the point men? Is he that bad that we have to limit his minutes?

4. I know the advantage of having Smithson and his ability to handle faceoffs but at the same time, hire Yannic Perrault and teach these guys how to win faceoffs more effectively so we don't have to see Smithson on the ice for nearly 13 minutes a night. He should be an 8-10 minute guy a night at most. His offensive skills kill any momentum we seem to establish on a nightly basis and for a team that is already offensively challenged, blowing how many opportunities nightly kills us. It's as bad as Fiddler and his penchant for going offsides.

I realize you need role players but at the same time, without a true forward superstar, we need to maximize the offensive talent we have upfront. Dumont, even with his off year last season has averaged over 60 points a year for us since he's been here. So why are we not using him more effectively? You'd think a new season and you get a fresh clean slate yet Trotz seems to be holding onto something from last year. If that was the case, shouldn't Legwand be getting limited minutes as well? I sometimes don't fully understand.

The other thing that can be touched on here as well is ownership of the power play. Trotz took over the PP and yet it is still failing. Can we not bring in a coach who knows how to handle the man advantage? Is it that hard? Watch film of other teams and see what works and doesn't work and go from there. I know we don't have the top tier talent but there are teams that have good to great power plays that use strategy and positioning and puck movement to make it work. Heck, you have a guy like Dumont is who is excellent passer that seems to get limited minutes on the PP yet Ward, who really hasn't shown much offensively this year, is out there night after night.

Trotz has his favorites and he always will yet when guys get in his doghouse, he never really lets them out again and to me it's lame because his favorites, usually the grinders, aren't the ones that need to be on the ice for extended minutes every night.

Oh well. Had to get that out.
Very insightful post. I thought all offseason if Dumont is not in Trotz's favor why not try to go ahead move him or with his contract situation ask him let the team explore trading him to a team that can use him. Which would free up his salary or let Poile work his magic to maneuver so that we wouldn't be eating the contract or get equal value out of it. I don't know if Dumont wanted to stay here but not at the expense of willing to set on 4th line and be humilated with the likes of Belak and Spaling. Smithson and Tootoo have no business being on a scoring line. Which it more says that Trotz doesn't care if Legwand gives him any offense as long as he is our checking line center along with Ward. We all wonder why our pp is the same as it always been and the blame always goes on the players not working hard enough. But how many times will that song ring true. Maybe it's the system their under that's not letting them perform. Whatever it is it's not working. Now were back to having Sully back on the point. Which didn't work last year and how do you expect it to work this year. What's that defnition of insanity again? It still the same problem as last few seasons just insert Lombardi for Arnott and Erat who's constantly hurt. Then we don't have the depth to overcome it.

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11-10-2010, 11:29 AM
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JP has been on record as saying how much he and his family love living here. It is a really great place to raise a family and hockey players can enjoy a degree normal life here that would be impossible in many markets. At the same time I have to believe professionally Dumont must be very frustrated at the role he has been stuck with in the past 2 years plus here. He is capable of much more, and many teams would have the roster space to give him that kind of role.

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11-10-2010, 11:47 AM
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JP has been on record as saying how much he and his family love living here. It is a really great place to raise a family and hockey players can enjoy a degree normal life here that would be impossible in many markets. At the same time I have to believe professionally Dumont must be very frustrated at the role he has been stuck with in the past 2 years plus here. He is capable of much more, and many teams would have the roster space to give him that kind of role.
Your right most team don't have the luxury of playing a 4ml player on the 4th line like the Preds do....of course I'm saracastic but it's obvious

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11-10-2010, 12:13 PM
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one thing we are not considering.

Maybe Dumont thinks the role he has been given suits him and he is happy with it. I think as fans sometimes we put words and ideas in players mouths and heads. I think we may be seeing what we want to see rather than what is out there. yes, dumont has better offensive skills than playing on a line with smithson and belak or tootoo. but is he a better option at he wing than sully or horn? is he a better option than ward and tootoo on legwands line? when everyone gets healthy, is he a better option than erat and wilson on lombardi's line. Problem is, due to health, no one has any idea of what lines should be yet. I don't know where he fits now I guess.

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11-10-2010, 12:14 PM
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Your right most team don't have the luxury of playing a 4ml player on the 4th line like the Preds do....of course I'm saracastic but it's obvious

I don't think you play a player based on salary. you play them based on where he fits. and right now, he isn't fitting anywhere or he is happy with his role, or handling it like a champ

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11-10-2010, 01:17 PM
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I don't think you play a player based on salary. you play them based on where he fits. and right now, he isn't fitting anywhere or he is happy with his role, or handling it like a champ
This jumps out at me. I don't see enough of the Nashville games to know whether or not JP fits in the top 9, but one thing that good management and ownership does is stay out of the coaches decisions. You either trust your people, or replace them. It's hard, but ideally you should let a coach decide playing time based on what's best for the team, not on ownership's desire to see their big dollars get big ice-time.

It's possible JP just fits better on the fourth line, but from comments here I'll buy that he doesnt. It's possible he's happy with his role.

A darker scenario that would go against what we know of Poile is that they want to move Dumont, and they're putting him in such an untenable situation that he waives his NTC. On one hand, making him unhappy may be the only way to get trade flexibility, on the other, putting him with weak linemates and poor icetime is NOT the way to raise his trade value!

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11-10-2010, 02:30 PM
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A darker scenario that would go against what we know of Poile is that they want to move Dumont, and they're putting him in such an untenable situation that he waives his NTC. On one hand, making him unhappy may be the only way to get trade flexibility, on the other, putting him with weak linemates and poor icetime is NOT the way to raise his trade value!
I understand this point. But that is the counter of what nashville does as a culture. The hallmark of this org. is that the org. treats you like a man. Screw up, Trotz handles you in private, not in the public. In a market like ours, you have to make it a desireable place to play. You don't want the reputation of if you fail you get treated like garbage.

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11-10-2010, 03:52 PM
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A darker scenario that would go against what we know of Poile is that they want to move Dumont, and they're putting him in such an untenable situation that he waives his NTC. On one hand, making him unhappy may be the only way to get trade flexibility, on the other, putting him with weak linemates and poor icetime is NOT the way to raise his trade value!
This is my speculation on the issue.

Poile flat out said last year that Dumont wouldn't be getting much more of a chance. Who says that?? If anything you want to inspire confidence in your players, not tell them the have no hope of having a bigger role on the team. Dumont then tweeted something to the effect of "i'd really like to know what's going on."

To me that SCREAMS that they wanted to move Dumont, just like they did Arnott.

This begs the question, why? 1) Not a good fit for the team, 2) Wanted to dump is salary to get closer to the floor, 3) Wanted to dump his salary to spend on something else.

At this point you seriously have to question if Dumont has any trade value. He has another year at 4m. It's very iffy if anyone would take him at that price.

Anyway you look at it, doesn't seem like a good situation.

First, Poile has to gauge if anyone would take JP. If no one will, we've got to start playing the guy more, and showing some confidence in him. He's better than anything else we got, unfortunately.

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11-10-2010, 04:29 PM
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wen did he tweet that, and when did poile say that? a link would be nice. not calling you a liar, I just had not seen that

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11-10-2010, 04:59 PM
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wen did he tweet that, and when did poile say that? a link would be nice. not calling you a liar, I just had not seen that
End of year press conference. Dumont might have said it to the paper, not twitter. I can't remember. It's here somewhere.


Last edited by dulzhok: 11-10-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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11-10-2010, 05:01 PM
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wen did he tweet that, and when did poile say that? a link would be nice. not calling you a liar, I just had not seen that

I remember reading that in the paper. Though, it was Trotz who said it, not Poile. It was right around the time of the Arnott trade. Trotz said he didn't see Dumont's role on the team changing too much this year. Dumont was confused.

But I definitely do think Dumont has some trade value. The problem is the NTC (and the salary cap). I think Dumont is simply refusing to waive it. Good for him I say.

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11-10-2010, 05:05 PM
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I think token was referring to Dumont tweeting that he wanted to know what was going on. I didn't even know he had a twitter account but then again, I closed mine several months ago.

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11-10-2010, 06:50 PM
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I think token was referring to Dumont tweeting that he wanted to know what was going on. I didn't even know he had a twitter account but then again, I closed mine several months ago.
Dumont has never been on Twitter...

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11-10-2010, 10:25 PM
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I don't think you play a player based on salary. you play them based on where he fits. and right now, he isn't fitting anywhere or he is happy with his role, or handling it like a champ
Does anyone else beside me see a problem with having a player with JP's talent happy playing a very limited role?

I would love to only work 20% of the time and get a full paycheck. I don't think my company would very happy about it. Dumont can produce a lot more with better time and linemates, and he has proven it in past years. If anything his play looks to me like it is definately improved over last year.

The coach shouldn't put players in certain roles, or keep them there, just because the player is happy with it. He needs to put them in roles where they can produce the most. Dumont is not in a role where he benefits the team as best he can in my opinion.

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11-11-2010, 06:28 AM
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If Dumont is happy in his role as a 4th liner and Trotz is happy to put him there, there needs to be serious assessment and use of talent. How many teams put a 60 point a year player on their 4th line, especially one that struggles offensively? While JP has handled this situation like a professional, it's a waste of talent. When Smithson garners more minutes than a guy like Dumont, I think someone needs to assess the use of talent. I have no problem with Smithson getting minutes but it should be on the PK, as a grinder and as an energy player, not a top 9 role like he's getting, while Dumont gets limited time.

Other teams are able to use their talent and still have lines that produce offensively and defensively. Datsyuk comes to mind with Zetterberg. They have a pylon in Holmstrom yet they are out there to play a strong two way game. Can we not do the same with Legwand playing with Ward and Dumont? While the talent level of Legwand and Ward is not the same, it's the same philosophy.

If Trotz truly wants balance, find a way to use your best 9 players on the top 3 lines so that you have a good blend of offense and defense. It's not as if Goc, O'Reilly and Legwand are not good defensively. Throw a winger on each line that is good defensively and then you use the other winger to take care of the last defenseman into the zone. Now granted, Erat and Lombardi being out have compounded things but with those two out, Dumont surely could be bumped up to a top 9 role couldn't he?

While Smithson and his ability to win faceoffs are a nice thing, he's not bringing much else to the team. When we're giving up a ton of goals as of late, our defensive ability has not been up to snuff. Is it going to get that much worse by playing Dumont more and Smithson less? I doubt it and if our game gets that much worse, we have bigger issues there then I thought.

I just don't see how a team on a limited budget can get away with playing a guy who makes that type of money such limited minutes. I haven't done it nor have the time to but I'd be curious what the minutes per salary paid is for Dumont and what other guys who get paid in the same general range are playing per night.

While I also agree that you don't play someone based on their salary, it's hard to swallow that our asset/salary management is being used like this. Enjoy the day folks.

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11-11-2010, 07:21 AM
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I just don't see how a team on a limited budget can get away with playing a guy who makes that type of money such limited minutes. I haven't done it nor have the time to but I'd be curious what the minutes per salary paid is for Dumont and what other guys who get paid in the same general range are playing per night.

While I also agree that you don't play someone based on their salary, it's hard to swallow that our asset/salary management is being used like this. Enjoy the day folks.
I totally agree that we can't put Dumont on the first line simply because we're paying him like a first liner. But like you said, this team does not have the luxury of paying Dumont's salary on the 4th line. So you either play him in top minutes, or you trade him so that you can use that salary slot on a guy who will get top minutes.

Of course there is a catch here. If he is still talented enough to play top minutes, then you can keep him there and enjoy his production. If he's not talented enough to play there, then who is going to trade for his salary and play him on their 3rd/4th line?

So the question is, has JP's skill decreased to the point where he is not able to play a top 6 role, or is it another matter between him and Trotz? If it's the first one then we're stuck with the current situation, if it's the second then there needs to be an intervention somewhere, Dumont needs to be in a top 6 role either because he can produce and Trotz needs to suck it up and deal with whatever he dislikes about JP, or he needs to be in a top 6 role so that the Preds can prove he is still capable and showcase him to potential trade partners.

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11-11-2010, 08:20 AM
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You can't trade a guy with a no trade clause....

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11-11-2010, 10:21 AM
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there is still something more to this. something that not being dumont, trotz, and poile know. we can specualte, hem, haw, debate the merits, but there is something no one knows becasue none of us are there.

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11-11-2010, 11:49 AM
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I totally agree that we can't put Dumont on the first line simply because we're paying him like a first liner. But like you said, this team does not have the luxury of paying Dumont's salary on the 4th line. So you either play him in top minutes, or you trade him so that you can use that salary slot on a guy who will get top minutes.

Of course there is a catch here. If he is still talented enough to play top minutes, then you can keep him there and enjoy his production. If he's not talented enough to play there, then who is going to trade for his salary and play him on their 3rd/4th line?

So the question is, has JP's skill decreased to the point where he is not able to play a top 6 role, or is it another matter between him and Trotz? If it's the first one then we're stuck with the current situation, if it's the second then there needs to be an intervention somewhere, Dumont needs to be in a top 6 role either because he can produce and Trotz needs to suck it up and deal with whatever he dislikes about JP, or he needs to be in a top 6 role so that the Preds can prove he is still capable and showcase him to potential trade partners.
How can anyone say that Dumont's skills have decreased. He was our leading points player for 2 seasons and was in the top 5 last year. You won't have points if you play on the 4th line just by simple logic. For one you don't get the minutes and another you don't have line mates that can score. Smithson could play on the number one line and wouldn't get 10 goals. Dumont on the other hand is capable of 20 plus goals. While others have explained that chemistry issue with some of the lines and they need time to develop the chemistry. I agree it takes time. If Trotz thinks more of D than he does O then Tootoo and Smithson are your guys. But your not going to get many goals. O'Reilly doesn't play good D and neither does Sully. But I don't expect them too. Their speed is supposed to make up for their lack of D. Someone says that you can't trade with a no trade clause and that is true. But Arnott had a no trade clause and they mutually agreed he would waive it because basically they didn't want him no more. The same with Dumont could happen. If Dumont wants to stay and despite the situation then there's nothing can be done. But it's not good for the team for player making that much not performing for whatever reason. Dumont makes more than Hornqvist. If Hornqvist and Smithson numbers are the same then we are in big trouble.

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11-11-2010, 12:35 PM
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You can't trade a guy with a no trade clause....
And that's why Simon Gagne never made it to Tampa Bay, right?


Pardon me for not paying extreme close attention, but I'm frankly not sure what the intended objective is of having Dumont on the fourth line. Spreading out scoring? Attempting to teach attention to defense? Giving opportunities to others? Sheer bloody-mindedness? (I wouldn't normally assume the latter, although that seems to be the popular assessment around here...)

I just haven't followed Trotz closely enough to have an idea of what he's thinking... but I guess I'm just not inclined to believe it's just because of bloody-minded favoritism.

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11-11-2010, 12:58 PM
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I'll admit to having a lot going on recently and without having a home game in a while maybe I'm just missing it, but how many games this season has JP been on the fourth line?

He was definitely there last game and I have no clue about Los Angeles the night before, but was he there in Phoenix too?

He's skated with Legwand the past two days on the second line, so IMO whatever caused Trotz to put him on the fourth line is done and over with...

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11-11-2010, 02:01 PM
  #24
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
And that's why Simon Gagne never made it to Tampa Bay, right?


Pardon me for not paying extreme close attention, but I'm frankly not sure what the intended objective is of having Dumont on the fourth line. Spreading out scoring? Attempting to teach attention to defense? Giving opportunities to others? Sheer bloody-mindedness? (I wouldn't normally assume the latter, although that seems to be the popular assessment around here...)

I just haven't followed Trotz closely enough to have an idea of what he's thinking... but I guess I'm just not inclined to believe it's just because of bloody-minded favoritism.
Maybe I should have said, "You can't trade a guy with a ntc if he won't waive it...."

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Old
11-11-2010, 03:00 PM
  #25
Paranoid Android
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
I'll admit to having a lot going on recently and without having a home game in a while maybe I'm just missing it, but how many games this season has JP been on the fourth line?

He was definitely there last game and I have no clue about Los Angeles the night before, but was he there in Phoenix too?

He's skated with Legwand the past two days on the second line, so IMO whatever caused Trotz to put him on the fourth line is done and over with...
You are right Slake. Dumont hasn't been on the 4th line as much as we have been complaining. It's only been recently that he's seen a lot of time on the 4th. According to dobber's line combos:

For the full year:
26.02% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 10 ERAT,MARTIN - 33 WILSON,COLIN
9.21% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 9 GOC,MARCEL - 33 WILSON,COLIN
8.04% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 25 SMITHSON,JERRED - 13 SPALING,NICK
7.16% PP 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 29 WARD,JOEL
5.12% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 9 GOC,MARCEL - 22 TOOTOO,JORDIN

For the past 3 games:
32.14% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 25 SMITHSON,JERRED - 13 SPALING,NICK
10.71% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 9 GOC,MARCEL - 22 TOOTOO,JORDIN
9.52% PP 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 29 WARD,JOEL
8.33% PP 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 26 SULLIVAN,STEVE - 29 WARD,JOEL
8.33% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 9 GOC,MARCEL - 29 WARD,JOEL
4.76% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 22 TOOTOO,JORDIN

Game vs Anaheim:
31.11% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 9 GOC,MARCEL - 29 WARD,JOEL
20% PP 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 29 WARD,JOEL
17.78% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 22 TOOTOO,JORDIN
8.89% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 9 GOC,MARCEL - 22 TOOTOO,JORDIN
8.89% EV 3 BELAK,WADE - 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 13 SPALING,NICK
4.44% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 13 SPALING,NICK - 22 TOOTOO,JORDIN
4.44% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 25 SMITHSON,JERRED
4.44% EV 71 DUMONT,JEAN-PIERRE - 11 LEGWAND,DAVID - 29 WARD,JOEL



He's definitely been shuffled more than any other player though. JP seems like a trooper though, and does what he is told, no questions asked.

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