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Wings, Avs, Devils Future?

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Old
05-23-2005, 06:08 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkyz15
I would take the Devils because as long as they have the franchise in Net and that system they play they will stay competative.

Salary Caps could seriasly hurt the Avs and Wings

Both teams have drafted alright in the past but currently dont have anything that culd replace key players, esp the AVS whos system is really dead aside from Wolski and Svatos

All should stay competative in the near future tho but no longer will these teams be able to buy Stanley Cups like the Wings did in 03

PS: Dont tell me that many of those key players were home grown b/c i kno they were/are but normal teams without the money the avs and wings have wuld not be able to keep so many great players on a team.

Just ask the pens and oilers fans
the only way is hurts detroit is because of cujo. If there was a way to get rid of him and his contract i wouldnt mind too much. I got faith in legace and a rookie back-up (god id love to see howard in there)... all in all, if we can ditch cujo and dget lids to restructure his a little to go down a little, the cap and salary wont hurt us at all. Langs doesnt do a lot to us either, and neither does whitneys

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Old
05-23-2005, 06:12 PM
  #27
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I think I can speak for most of these teams saying they really didn't want to pay 10 million a player, but it was either that or lose their high end talent to the Rag$.

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Old
05-23-2005, 06:15 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
LOL!!

The disillusional HockeysFuture crowd.

Florida, Atlanta and Nashville passing Detroit, New Jersey and Colorado?

Your arguments sure make a lot of sense, makes me eat my words on the spot.

The thread said 5-10 years. With the young players these teams have, its surely possible.

Atlanta has Ilya, Dany, Kari, Coburn, Valabik as a future core of the team. If Kari turns out to be what most people project him to be, in 5 years Atlanta should be a top contender. Nashville has Legwand, Hartnell, Vokoun, Hamhuis, Suter, Upshall for the future. Florida is full of good young players il Jokinen, Horton, Stewart, Luongo, Krajicek etc. and with Martin being known to get the most out of his young players, they should get their act together soon enough. The Avs, Wings, and Devils have a lot of things to sort out for them to be successful, and as I mentioned, I take into account what the teams have RIGHT NOW and the wide assumption that the cap will be around 45M.

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05-23-2005, 06:18 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakazoid
Your arguments sure make a lot of sense, makes me eat my words on the spot.

The thread said 5-10 years. With the young players these teams have, its surely possible.

Atlanta has Ilya, Dany, Kari, Coburn, Valabik as a future core of the team. If Kari turns out to be what most people project him to be, in 5 years Atlanta should be a top contender. Nashville has Legwand, Hartnell, Vokoun, Hamhuis, Suter, Upshall for the future. Florida is full of good young players il Jokinen, Horton, Stewart, Luongo, Krajicek etc. and with Martin being known to get the most out of his young players, they should get their act together soon enough. The Avs, Wings, and Devils have a lot of things to sort out for them to be successful, and as I mentioned, I take into account what the teams have RIGHT NOW and the wide assumption that the cap will be around 45M.
Add Columbus to those teams. With Nash, Zherdev, Fritche, and hopefully Klesla among others, and with Denis and LeClaire in net, they can make some noise soon enough.

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05-23-2005, 06:46 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakazoid
Why not? WIth the vast number of free agents that will be available after the CBA is done, the large amount of good players available will surely drive their price down. This is a one time opportunity to nail down some great players at a reduced cost, plus with most rich teams will be over the cap and will require to cut down, it is THE time to spend that cap room, because when the NHL comes back, it has nowhere to go but up, meaning more cap room, higher salaries, kind of what happened to baseball the last few years. There won't be 10M/year offers from big market teams since they will be capped out, so the little guys have a nice pool of players to pick from, and all of them have to play somewhere.
I think the Rangers are an example of why buying up free agents isn't exactly the best formula for success. You know teams will do their best to keep their essential free agents. And I'm somewhat doubting Scott Niedermayer or Peter Forsberg would reject respectable offers from their current teams to sign for a little more money in Florida or Minnesota.

There will be a ton of free agents, but it's probably going to be the Martin Strakas and Jeff Friesens of the world. Good players, but not great players. I'd certainly be wary of signing too many guys of that caliber to long term deals.

Salary cap flexibility is something you don't want to squander. I always laugh at the NBA franchises with cap space that feel like they have to spend it.....and they end up overpaying 2nd tier guys, and are stuck with those contracts for multiple years.

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05-23-2005, 07:03 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
LOL!!

The disillusional HockeysFuture crowd.

Florida, Atlanta and Nashville passing Detroit, New Jersey and Colorado?

Naturally we all want to defend our own teams, but this is the evolution of hockey. Teams can only stay dominant for so long. Late 80s/Early 90s, Detroit was hardly a top tier franchise....Quebec had three consecutive years with the #1 pick, and New Jersey was still more of a Mickey Mouse franchise than a viable Cup contender.

It's about time for the newer franchises to come to the forefront, and to an extent, Tampa Bay already did that. Who among us really thought this team would win a Cup, even as recently as 2002?

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Old
05-23-2005, 07:06 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur
I think the Rangers are an example of why buying up free agents isn't exactly the best formula for success.
Last years Avs. The Snyder Skins, the Yankees, the Rag$, the 86 Mets...

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Old
05-23-2005, 07:08 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
How wrong you are, Martin finished the season on the Devils top defense pairing and also playing along side with Rafalski was arguebly the top american defenseman in the World Cup last fall. He is most definitly a top four defenseman on the Devils if not better.

I don't think the Devils "D" is in such a disarray as you think are perhaps hope.

Being the top defenseman on the Devils with Niedermayer and Stevens is more of an accomplishment than being the top defenseman on Team USA.


I'm not taking anything away from Rafalski or Martin, but top pair defensemen they are not.

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05-23-2005, 07:19 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur
I think the Rangers are an example of why buying up free agents isn't exactly the best formula for success. You know teams will do their best to keep their essential free agents. And I'm somewhat doubting Scott Niedermayer or Peter Forsberg would reject respectable offers from their current teams to sign for a little more money in Florida or Minnesota.

There will be a ton of free agents, but it's probably going to be the Martin Strakas and Jeff Friesens of the world. Good players, but not great players. I'd certainly be wary of signing too many guys of that caliber to long term deals.

Salary cap flexibility is something you don't want to squander. I always laugh at the NBA franchises with cap space that feel like they have to spend it.....and they end up overpaying 2nd tier guys, and are stuck with those contracts for multiple years.
Rangers are an exception, not the rule. There's signing, and there's smart signing. Holik getting #1 center money to play 2nd 3rd lines is not smart signing.

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05-23-2005, 07:31 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by freakazoid
Rangers are an exception, not the rule. There's signing, and there's smart signing. Holik getting #1 center money to play 2nd 3rd lines is not smart signing.
Even before Holik......guys like Kamensky, Lefebvre, Quintal. None of those three made eye-popping dollars, but I'm sure Neil Smith didn't get what he paid for.

Dallas went out and signed Pierre Turgeon, Donald Audette, and Bill Guerin to lucrative free agent deals in recent years. They've tried to deal Turgeon/Guerin, and they traded Audette. And Dallas is generally regarded as a "smart" franchise.

When Phoenix signed Tony Amonte, most figured the Coyotes made a good signing. Less than 9 months later, they cut their losses by dealing him.

I'm sure every signing seems like a "smart signing" at the time. Everybody was ready to concede the Western Conference when the Avs got Kariya/Selanne. That obviously didn't work out quite as well as it did in an EA Sports game.

If you look at the histories of the recent franchises, the teams that maintained success all built from within, made timely trades, and avoided signing big name free agents. If you look at the teams who made a Cup Final and disapeared soon after, usually the opposite happened.

If a team is 20 mil under the cap, by all means, spend some of that judiciously to augment your team. But I definitely would not go crazy and try to spend 15 mil on 4 or 5 guys to try to make a quantum leap.


Last edited by Brodeur: 05-23-2005 at 07:41 PM.
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Old
05-23-2005, 08:37 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Brodeur
Even before Holik......guys like Kamensky, Lefebvre, Quintal. None of those three made eye-popping dollars, but I'm sure Neil Smith didn't get what he paid for.

Dallas went out and signed Pierre Turgeon, Donald Audette, and Bill Guerin to lucrative free agent deals in recent years. They've tried to deal Turgeon/Guerin, and they traded Audette. And Dallas is generally regarded as a "smart" franchise.

When Phoenix signed Tony Amonte, most figured the Coyotes made a good signing. Less than 9 months later, they cut their losses by dealing him.

I'm sure every signing seems like a "smart signing" at the time. Everybody was ready to concede the Western Conference when the Avs got Kariya/Selanne. That obviously didn't work out quite as well as it did in an EA Sports game.

If you look at the histories of the recent franchises, the teams that maintained success all built from within, made timely trades, and avoided signing big name free agents. If you look at the teams who made a Cup Final and disapeared soon after, usually the opposite happened.

If a team is 20 mil under the cap, by all means, spend some of that judiciously to augment your team. But I definitely would not go crazy and try to spend 15 mil on 4 or 5 guys to try to make a quantum leap.
I never said try to win the cup with free agent signings, but some teams are missing a big time player to take it to the next level. Boston comes to mind. Give them a RW and watch them take over the east. Atlanta could use a #1 center. Florida could use a Dman. and so fourth. With the number of players available, I can't see why a team can't dish out 5-6M and plug that big hole.

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Old
05-23-2005, 09:07 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
Being the top defenseman on the Devils with Niedermayer and Stevens is more of an accomplishment than being the top defenseman on Team USA.


I'm not taking anything away from Rafalski or Martin, but top pair defensemen they are not.
Then your assuming that we won't have neither of them, as far as I know I believe Neidermeyer owes the Devils one more year and I highly doubt Stevens will retire if healthy and I haven't heard that he plans to.

Martin is going to be a much better than people will realize, if he can be a top four defensman for Team USA (which he was in the WC if not better) then he most definitely could be a top pair defensemen for the Devils, maybe not now, but soon enough.

The progress that he has made has been amazing, I thought he was going to good things in his rookie year, but he succeeded mine and everybody elses expectations. If Neidermeyer leaves after next year and the way Martin has evolved, he could step in. He won't be Neidermeyer, but he will good enough for the Devils and that's saying alot.

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Old
05-23-2005, 09:33 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakazoid
I never said try to win the cup with free agent signings, but some teams are missing a big time player to take it to the next level. Boston comes to mind. Give them a RW and watch them take over the east. Atlanta could use a #1 center. Florida could use a Dman. and so fourth. With the number of players available, I can't see why a team can't dish out 5-6M and plug that big hole.
I think you and I were arguing different things. I was thinking you meant a team like Nashville swooping in and signing Anson Carter, Jeff Friesen, Glen Murray, and Alexei Zhitnik.

Atlanta will be hard pressed to find a true #1 center in the free agent market. Sergei Zubov may find his way onto the open market, and he'd be a great fit for Atlanta.

The big time players available will probably be the guys still remaining from last summer: Kariya, Kovalev, Palffy, Demitra, Murray. Naslund is theoretically UFA after July 1st, as is Modano, Zubov, Leetch, Niedermayer. I don't know how willing some of those guys would be to signing onto a team with "potential" but no history of success.

If I have 20 mil in cap space, I'd probably spend about 10 mil......and if the team really looked like it was a player or two away from being a legit contender, I'd still have cap space to make a mid-season trade.

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05-24-2005, 12:18 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Trottier
My suggestion: look beyond the ice (today) and look at the front office.

All NHL teams will be dealing in the years ahead with a Brave New NHL, economic wise. Clearly teams with the most talent have the highest risk.

But ultimately - for all 30 franchises - it comes down to management acumen, under a cap or no cap. It starts at the top.

As long as Lacroix, Lamariello and Holland are in Colorado, NJ and Detroit respectively, those franchises will be viable.

Resource$ is one thing. Using resource$ properly is another. Contrary to the popular, flawed opinion (usually offered by fans of non-contenders) these three guys will not suddenly become "dumb or ineffective" once their payrolls are limited. Certainly no less so than any other GM.

Nothing beats brains, to quote JFK. These frnachises have an advantage in that category, clearly, based on past results.


Nothing else needs to be said.


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Old
05-24-2005, 01:57 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakazoid
Agreed I forgot Tanguay, it's a Monday morning , but how will he do without Sakic/Forsberg? The Avs Future doesn't include a #1 center to lead the way, so it will be more difficult for them to score. As for the other guys you named, none will be able to lead them to the top of the league. Take out the salaries of Blake, Sakic and Foote, and their payroll will fit into the system, but not much room to work with. The D looks shaky, and Liles has a size issue. That looks like a middle of the pack team to me. They better hope Budaj turns out to be a #1 so they can trade either him or Aebischer for help at center. And all 30 teams can bank their future on guys that can "surprise all of us", so thats not much of an argument.
agree. That's rude but true.

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Old
05-24-2005, 08:44 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Totally agree here. The Wings IMO are the last team aside from the Lightining to win the cup without Significant FA signings in 97 and 98. Those teams were drafted pure and simple. And when they traded for Shanahan, at the time it was a truly significant return in Primeau.

Certainly I can buy the "buying" argument in 2002 with Robitaille, Hasek, Hull, Schneider. But the Core has always been there.

Nobody can get any of the facts straight on these boards. First its the Wings bought a cup in 2003, then its the Wings bought Robitaille, Hasek, Hull, and Schneider for the 2002 cup. Schneider was traded for at the end of the 2003 season. He wasn't there for the cup.

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Old
05-24-2005, 09:03 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkyz15
PS: Dont tell me that many of those key players were home grown b/c i kno they were/are but normal teams without the money the avs and wings have wuld not be able to keep so many great players on a team.
And tell me why that is a bad thing? It's an unequal situation for the past decade, yes, but shouldn't long term franchise building be the goal of the league for their next financial landscape? Or would you rather have a league where all rosters are radically turned over every few years?

Great post by Trottier, btw.

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05-24-2005, 09:04 AM
  #43
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I wouldn't call a defence that consists Vanaanen shaky. He looks like a potential Adam Foote (without the offence though) and that's a damn good piece to build around. Will the Avs still be dominant after Blake, Foote, Forsberg and Sakic retire? No. But will they still be good? Oh yes, they'll still be good. And it seems that it will be unpleasent surprise for some.

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05-24-2005, 09:04 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
Then your assuming that we won't have neither of them, as far as I know I believe Neidermeyer owes the Devils one more year and I highly doubt Stevens will retire if healthy and I haven't heard that he plans to.

Martin is going to be a much better than people will realize, if he can be a top four defensman for Team USA (which he was in the WC if not better) then he most definitely could be a top pair defensemen for the Devils, maybe not now, but soon enough.

The progress that he has made has been amazing, I thought he was going to good things in his rookie year, but he succeeded mine and everybody elses expectations. If Neidermeyer leaves after next year and the way Martin has evolved, he could step in. He won't be Neidermeyer, but he will good enough for the Devils and that's saying alot.
As for having Nieds next season, it all comes down to the last year of his contract being void or not. So far the NHL indicates that all contracts during the lockout count as a year. We will see what happens when they finally agree on a CBA.


Last edited by DARKSIDE: 05-24-2005 at 01:19 PM.
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