I was going to put this in the NHL thread, but that's more geared to modern, and I'm looking historical.
Which team(s) (and year)has done the biggest "teardown" to start a rebuild? I mean complete to the point that you really did need a scorecard afterwards to tell who was on the team? So firesales and maybe those "one sided" trades for draft picks/dump salary that made you say "you gotta be kidding..."-whatever team did, they were completely starting over. (Expansion teams in their formative years I'm not counting-they didn't have the "tear down" option)
If you can't pick one, even a couple that come to mind would be good.
A Habs fan would remember this better and I am too lazy to look it up but Montreal before last season had a huge turnover. Got rid of their stars in Kovalev and Koivu and much more and brought in Cammaleri, Gionta, Gomez, Gill.
Remember when the Caps traded Jagr AND a tonne of cash for Anson Carter? That was pretty much the definition of blowing it up IMO, the lockout was the next season, but the season after that Jagr put up 54 G/123 PTS for the Rangers! That season (03/04) they also shipped out guys like Lang (leading the league in scoring at that point), Gonchar (near PPG when dealt), Nylander, Bondra, etc., mostly for very little in return (other than Lang, who turned into Fleischman and the pick that became Green).
Worked out OK for the Caps in the end though, tanked the crap out of that season and managed to snag Ovy with the 1st overall pick in 2004!
first thought I had was "this thread absolutely screams 03-04 Caps".
Only 6 players I know of that played the full season with that team: Joel Kwiatkowski, Jeff Halpern, Brendan Witt, Matt Pettinger, Olaf Kolzig, and Kip Miller
there were probably a few role players in there as well that played the full season but not every game.
That season (03/04) they also shipped out guys like Lang (leading the league in scoring at that point), Gonchar (near PPG when dealt), Nylander, Bondra, etc., mostly for very little in return (other than Lang, who turned into Fleischman and the pick that became Green).
Bondra brought them Brooks Laich and Gonchar netted Shaone Morrisonn and picks (one of which was used on Jeff Schultz).
Bondra brought them Brooks Laich and Gonchar netted Shaone Morrisonn and picks (one of which was used on Jeff Schultz).
on top of that they traded the return from jagr, anson carter, to the kings for klepis i believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder
Remember when the Caps traded Jagr AND a tonne of cash for Anson Carter? That was pretty much the definition of blowing it up IMO, the lockout was the next season, but the season after that Jagr put up 54 G/123 PTS for the Rangers! That season (03/04) they also shipped out guys like Lang (leading the league in scoring at that point), Gonchar (near PPG when dealt), Nylander, Bondra, etc., mostly for very little in return (other than Lang, who turned into Fleischman and the pick that became Green).
Also they didn't get cash for jagr, they actually had to pay a portion of his salary to get the rangers to take him. traded konowalchuk as well their captain at the time.
Bondra brought them Brooks Laich and Gonchar netted Shaone Morrisonn and picks (one of which was used on Jeff Schultz).
on top of that they traded the return from jagr, anson carter, to the kings for klepis i believe.
Not sure what you guys are getting at, because from where I'm sitting that all sounds like very little in return for star players.
Quote:
Also they didn't get cash for jagr, they actually had to pay a portion of his salary to get the rangers to take him. traded konowalchuk as well their captain at the time.
Again, not sure what you're getting at, if you read my post properly you'll see that's exactly what I said, they traded Jagr and cash for Carter, I guess you interpreted that as Jagr for Carter and cash?
As I said in my first post, I'm not arguing with the success of their rebuild, their vets had bad chemistry together and all these trades made them tank so they could draft studs like Ovechkin and Backstrom, just pointing out that it was a huge teardown pretty much just for the purpose of tearing down and starting over, which is what the OP was looking for. The only truly key pieces they got out of all those trades were from dealing Lang, which was obviously a sweet deal as I already mentioned, netting them Fleischmann and Mike Green.
Not sure what you guys are getting at, because from where I'm sitting that all sounds like very little in return for star players.
Again, not sure what you're getting at, if you read my post properly you'll see that's exactly what I said, they traded Jagr and cash for Carter, I guess you interpreted that as Jagr for Carter and cash?
As I said in my first post, I'm not arguing with the success of their rebuild, their vets had bad chemistry together and all these trades made them tank so they could draft studs like Ovechkin and Backstrom, just pointing out that it was a huge teardown pretty much just for the purpose of tearing down and starting over, which is what the OP was looking for. The only truly key pieces they got out of all those trades were from dealing Lang, which was obviously a sweet deal as I already mentioned, netting them Fleischmann and Mike Green.
I thought about asking for success of said rebuilds, but that could lead to more subjective opinion-but if want to discuss that, feel free!
I can't believe I forgot about the 03-04 Caps, I remember reading more than a few GM's were not impressed by what they as a salary dump and "deliberate" dumbing down of talent to get Ovy.
Not sure what you guys are getting at, because from where I'm sitting that all sounds like very little in return for star players.
Again, not sure what you're getting at, if you read my post properly you'll see that's exactly what I said, they traded Jagr and cash for Carter, I guess you interpreted that as Jagr for Carter and cash?
As I said in my first post, I'm not arguing with the success of their rebuild, their vets had bad chemistry together and all these trades made them tank so they could draft studs like Ovechkin and Backstrom, just pointing out that it was a huge teardown pretty much just for the purpose of tearing down and starting over, which is what the OP was looking for. The only truly key pieces they got out of all those trades were from dealing Lang, which was obviously a sweet deal as I already mentioned, netting them Fleischmann and Mike Green.
misread the part about the cash. and the other part was really just pointing out that the caps somehow managed to turn their crappy return for Jagr into an even crappier return.
Not sure what you guys are getting at, because from where I'm sitting that all sounds like very little in return for star players.
If you're going to mention Fleischmann as a key component then Laich and Schultz have to be mentioned. The later two are more valuable contributors. Those players may have been of little immediate value but that was part of the whole idea.
Not sure what you guys are getting at, because from where I'm sitting that all sounds like very little in return for star players.
Bondra wasn't really a star at that point and never had a season of note after the trade (he retired a few years later, didn't he?). Laich has become a very valuable player for the Caps. I don't think anybody is disappointed with that return.
Mike O'Connell and Jeremy Jacobs timed all the Bruins' contracts to expire after 2004 because of the projected lockout, then when they get back, he trades Thornton, and by the end of the year Samsonov is gone too.
I looked up the rosters again, and it wasn't such a gigantic turnover, there were a bunch of roleplayers who stuck on, but as of now, Bergeron is the only guy left over from that 2003-2004 team(Thomas actually got a few games in 2002, but was in Finland until 05-06). I wonder if every franchise has had as similar a turnover.
5 goalies played at least 120 minutes in '04, none were there in '06.
Kasparaitis and Poti were the only starting D-men to return, unless you count Tyutin, who played 25 games as a rookie on '04.
Jagr was traded there during '04. The other returning forwards were Rucinsky, Ortmeyer (checking forward), Lundmark (10 points in '04, traded after 3 games in '06), and Moore (5 games in '04).
Harry Neale completely blew up the Vancouver Canucks in 1984 and essentially dismantled the team that went to the 1982 Finals. Ended up being one of the worst rebuilds in NHL history.
Traded away the team's 3 most reliable defensive defenders - Snepsts, Lindgren, and McCarthy - in a stretch of a couple months, all for essentially nothing.
Traded Tiger Williams for Rob McClanahan. Darcy Rota retired through injury.
Hired a head coach (Bill Laforge) with no experience above the WHL.
Laforge handed the #1 starting job in goal to 21 y/o Frank Caprice ahead of veteran Richard Brodeur.
Played the season with 4 rookies (Butcher, Lidster, Daigneault, Petit) in the top 6 on the blueline.
6 forwards on the club aged 22 or under.
Not surprisingly, the team allowed 401 goals - the most ever by a non-expansion team at that point (later topped by the '86 Wings) - and finished with 59 points. Some of the young players forced into key roles, most notably Neely, Petit, and Daigneault, were eventually given away for nothing and took years for their careers to recover.
Laforge didn't make it out of November as head coach, and might be the worst coach in NHL history.
Harry Neale completely blew up the Vancouver Canucks in 1984 and essentially dismantled the team that went to the 1982 Finals. Ended up being one of the worst rebuilds in NHL history.
Traded away the team's 3 most reliable defensive defenders - Snepsts, Lindgren, and McCarthy - in a stretch of a couple months, all for essentially nothing.
Traded Tiger Williams for Rob McClanahan. Darcy Rota retired through injury.
Hired a head coach (Bill Laforge) with no experience above the WHL.
Laforge handed the #1 starting job in goal to 21 y/o Frank Caprice ahead of veteran Richard Brodeur.
Played the season with 4 rookies (Butcher, Lidster, Daigneault, Petit) in the top 6 on the blueline.
6 forwards on the club aged 22 or under.
Not surprisingly, the team allowed 401 goals - the most ever by a non-expansion team at that point (later topped by the '86 Wings) - and finished with 59 points. Some of the young players forced into key roles, most notably Neely, Petit, and Daigneault, were eventually given away for nothing and took years for their careers to recover.
Laforge didn't make it out of November as head coach, and might be the worst coach in NHL history.
On the topic of dismantling Canucks Cup finals teams, the 1997-98 team was torn apart by Keenan. Most veterans of the 1994 finals team were traded, including Linden, McLean, Gelinas, Odjick, Babych, Sillinger, Ledyard, Bohonos. Then some of the players that were acquired were traded: Sanderson, Ciccone, Burke.
Mike O'Connell and Jeremy Jacobs timed all the Bruins' contracts to expire after 2004 because of the projected lockout, then when they get back, he trades Thornton, and by the end of the year Samsonov is gone too.
I looked up the rosters again, and it wasn't such a gigantic turnover, there were a bunch of roleplayers who stuck on, but as of now, Bergeron is the only guy left over from that 2003-2004 team(Thomas actually got a few games in 2002, but was in Finland until 05-06). I wonder if every franchise has had as similar a turnover.
As a Sharks fan, I know that Patrick Marleau is the only guy still on the team from 03-04. It would be interesting to chart franchise turnover since the lockout.
Not surprisingly, the team allowed 401 goals - the most ever by a non-expansion team at that point (later topped by the '86 Wings) - and finished with 59 points. Some of the young players forced into key roles, most notably Neely, Petit, and Daigneault, were eventually given away for nothing and took years for their careers to recover.
Laforge didn't make it out of November as head coach, and might be the worst coach in NHL history.
I don't get it. The canucks are an expansion team.
The Pittsburgh Penguins completely tore their team apart right after the 2000-01 season where they reached the Conference Finals. They lost so much talent: Jagr, Kovalev, Lang, Straka, just about their entire top six was gone. They had no resemblance of an NHL quality roster in 2003-04. One of the worst NHL teams I've ever seen. So many players who are no longer in the NHL played on that roster.
On the topic of dismantling Canucks Cup finals teams, the 1997-98 team was torn apart by Keenan. Most veterans of the 1994 finals team were traded, including Linden, McLean, Gelinas, Odjick, Babych, Sillinger, Ledyard, Bohonos. Then some of the players that were acquired were traded: Sanderson, Ciccone, Burke.
Sillinger, Ledyard, and Bohonos weren't in Vancouver during the 93-94 season.
I think the simple reality of Vancouver's run to the Final is that the team, quite honestly, was not that good. It was a team that featured a lot of guys in the prime of their careers who happened to all have one of their best seasons all at the same time. Very few players from that team continued to play at a level even close to what they had done that season.
It doesn't excuse Keenan for basically gutting the team to satisfy the Messier/Noonan faction, neither of whom approached the status of "contributor" in Vancouver.
Head coach Guy Carbonneau - Later fired and replaced by Bob Gainey for the rest of the season.
Assistant coaches: Doug Jarvis (let go) Rollie Melanson (stepped back) Kirk Muller (still there)
General Manager Bob Gainey. Stepped down the next year to be an assistant, or "Advisor" to Pierre Gauthier.
Team was sold by George Gillett.
Alex Tanguay
Alex Kovalev
Saku Koivu
Steve Begin (Traded near the deadline to Dallas for Doug Janik)
Chris Higgins (Traded in the off season for Scott Gomez
Ryan McDonagh (never played, but a prospect)
Francois Bouillion
Georges Laraque (Bought out the next season)
Kyle Chipchura (Traded the next season to Anaheim for a 4th round pick)
Marc Denis
Mathieu Dandenault
Mathieu Schnieder
Matt D'agostini (Traded in the next season for Aaron Palushaj)
Mike Komisarek
Patrice Brisebois
Robert Lang
Tom Kostopoulous
Guillaume Latendresse (Traded the next season for Benoit Pouliot)
