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Any love for Holmgren now?

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Old
11-13-2010, 10:24 PM
  #51
Beastieboy
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Losing Gagne in such a horrible trade hurt as he was one of my favourite Flyers, that being said I think he got fleeced because Gags wanted to go to TB... I don't like the Shelley signing. I didn't like the O'Donnell signing at the time as I thought he was too far over the hill - he has proved me wrong. I like the Zherdev gamble/signing. The Mez contract is pricey but I think he has earned it so far... and what can we say about Bob? So far, so AWESOME. Last year's Leino trade looks as good for the Flyers as the Sharp trade was bad. Complete steal.

Overall I like Homer's work. He has addressed the weak 3rd pairing, probably over-compensating (in cap $$) but the early returns are great. Having guys who you can trust to play more than 2 minutes in a play-off game without putting up a minus will be huge and will keep guys like Pronger and Timo even more dominant as they can get a breather. And if the magic Bob run continues... I REALLY like their chances to win the Cup this year.

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Old
11-13-2010, 10:39 PM
  #52
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I didn't really have a problem with homer, besides the shelley signing... he brought this team from the bottom to EC champs in a very short time.

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11-13-2010, 10:55 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Far more precise and eloquent than what I've said.

That's basically my point.

Spending money and trading draft picks is easy.
He's made the good moves that have made sense, but then he does something where everyone and their mother knows it's going to backfire. It's easy to say that "you're not going to get every one right," but you also can't back yourself into a hole.

I felt no matter what Gagne wasn't going to be here after this season as it was.

To be honest though, Holmgren will be fully redeemed when he gets his name on the Cup like everyone else.

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11-13-2010, 11:30 PM
  #54
Larry44
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Yes our team is great, but I still stand by the statement that it can be better if he didn't make so many glaringly obvious mistakes. Homer is constantly in reaction mode. He does something, and more often than not needs to make a secondary move to make the former possible. He lacks foresight and patience IMO.

I don't think it's unfair to want "perfection". I think it's unrealistic t, but I don't think it's unfair to want and expect to be as close as possible. Jut like at work, if my boss asks me to do something, and ultimately I accomplish it, great. But when my boss knows I could have had it done ahead of schedule and under budget, he should be pissed at me.

Again, our team is FANTASTIC, and I will not doubt Homer's eye for talent (with some exceptions such as Jones). I question his methods in acquiring and keeping talent.
You just need to get over yourself. Holmgren is one of the best GMs in the game, because he's put together one of the best teams in the game. He has no prior regime to blame, he went out and built one of the best Ds in the league, one of the best groups of forwards and if Bob holds out, we're going to be in the thick of it all year and for many years to come.

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Old
11-13-2010, 11:38 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
To be honest though, Holmgren will be fully redeemed when he gets his name on the Cup like everyone else.
Indeed. That shiny, silver trophy will make me forget anything that Homer has ever done to piss me off. That's what it's all about, and I must say, he's built a roster that has a legit shot to do it.

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Old
11-13-2010, 11:49 PM
  #56
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There is not another team in this league that i would want to swap with as per players vs salary cap . Most teams would like to be in the situation that Paul has this team in.His overall body of work is commendable in my opinion,no GM is perfect and can be 100% sure how certain deals will work out .
Homer has done very well and deserves a lot of credit.I liked Homer as a player and i like him as a GM too !I think Homer is helped by the fact that his players like playing for Philadelphia, they like the organization and love the fan support etc which probably helps when negotiating deals and contracts.

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Old
11-14-2010, 02:59 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I do not really care what people say or think. The fact is he is a good GM period
He's really not. He's a dude with a lot of cash behind him that inherited a rising team (Richards, Carter, and Giroux, for example, were all drafted under Clarke).

He knows how to sign checks. Great.

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11-14-2010, 03:00 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Indeed. That shiny, silver trophy will make me forget anything that Homer has ever done to piss me off. That's what it's all about, and I must say, he's built a roster that has a legit shot to do it.
Despite himself... he basically needs Bob to be the man from here on out.

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11-14-2010, 03:11 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He's really not. He's a dude with a lot of cash behind him that inherited a rising team (Richards, Carter, and Giroux, for example, were all drafted under Clarke).

He knows how to sign checks. Great.
Wrong, By the way who was the assistant gm during this time? Guess he had no influence at all huh?

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Old
11-14-2010, 06:58 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He's really not. He's a dude with a lot of cash behind him that inherited a rising team (Richards, Carter, and Giroux, for example, were all drafted under Clarke).

He knows how to sign checks. Great.
Clarke didn't even know Giroux's name when he drafted. That pick had Holmgren written all over it. Give the guy some credit.

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Old
11-14-2010, 09:23 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Despite himself... he basically needs Bob to be the man from here on out.
I'm not a Homer fanboy, as my past post history illustrates. But I don't have any problems with the roster so long as the goaltending holds up.

I've bashed Homer when I felt he deserved it, but I also credit him for putting a roster on the ice that looks like a solid contender. The guy knows talent, even if one questions his methods in acquiring said talent (and I often do question those methods).

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Old
11-14-2010, 09:37 AM
  #62
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In the "summer of eff-ups" he deserves credit for the signing of O'Donnel, Zherdev and the trade for mezzaros.

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Old
11-14-2010, 10:00 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You just need to get over yourself. Holmgren is one of the best GMs in the game, because he's put together one of the best teams in the game. He has no prior regime to blame, he went out and built one of the best Ds in the league, one of the best groups of forwards and if Bob holds out, we're going to be in the thick of it all year and for many years to come.
No I don't, I think I'm being perfectly objective in my analysis. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sitting here claiming Homer is a terrible GM. I don't think he's in the bottom 5 of GMs. I also don't think he's in the top 5. I'd say he's certainly in the top half. What is so wrong about wanting to see improvement? Why are so many people comfortable with the status quo? We should always be improving, GM included.

And I'm not discounting the many good things he's done either. But as Jester said, the man walked into a team budding with young talent, and a buttload of money to spend. Since that season (where he spent said money) he's been making moves, and then making secondary moves to fit the former move under the cap. A little foresight would go a long way sometimes.

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Old
11-14-2010, 10:04 AM
  #64
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If Holmgren can stop overpaying on every contract and trade (CArter and Giroux contracts are a decent start) then I will give him props. At least he is getting better over time and not worse...

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11-14-2010, 10:05 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
In the "summer of eff-ups" he deserves credit for the signing of O'Donnel, Zherdev and the trade for mezzaros.
Zherdev has been decisively mediocre (as many expected). The rub on the Meszaros trade wasn't that it happened, it was that nothing happened after to facilitate it. So far, it's worked out pretty well, but what people forget in all of that is, O'Donnell, the only move you listed that was necessary, could have been grooming a guy like Bartulis.

Last year, we signed Bartulis to a three-year, cap-friendly 600k/yr extension, as if he was actually going to be a part of the plan. Don't confuse this for me arguing Bartulis should be in over Meszaros, I'm simply saying we've allocated a questionable amount of money on defense. The saving grace to all of this is having apparently caught lightning in a bottle in goal (for now). They didn't think Bobrovsky could be the guy right away, and that's really been the key so far this season. I'm not giving points for something working out conveniently in the team's favor.

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Old
11-14-2010, 10:09 AM
  #66
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Also he needs to realize that Shelley and Walker are useless wastes of cap space

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Old
11-14-2010, 10:10 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
In the "summer of eff-ups" he deserves credit for the signing of O'Donnel, Zherdev and the trade for mezzaros.
Certainly. I loved the OD signing, and he's been great for the 3rd pairing. I loved the Zherdev signing, it's great value and hopefully Z keeps up his play of late. Despite being thrilled with Meszaros' play, which honestly, I expected him to play well, I still question moving a 2nd round pick 30 minutes before Free Agency opens for a defenseman making 4 million who's been underperforming for 2 years.

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Old
11-14-2010, 10:16 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Once another good deal is done everyone is going to start saying how much they always loved Homer and how all his moves have been great. I defended Homer all summer long (and before) and don't remember more than two or three people actually agreeing with me. People can't look past the "bad" moves Homer has made that have really hurt this team (...sarcasm...).
I agree. To be honest the only two bad moves he's made are trading away Gagne for nothing (although he catered to Gagne) and signing Shelley.

I still like the guy. I like what he's done with our team.

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11-14-2010, 10:25 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
I agree. To be honest the only two bad moves he's made are trading away Gagne for nothing (although he catered to Gagne) and signing Shelley.

I still like the guy. I like what he's done with our team.
Signing Leighton 1 day before July first, trading Upshall AND a 2nd for Carcillo, First for Eminger, Signing Jones, Letting Jones go to re entry waivers,

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11-14-2010, 10:40 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
-Trading Gagne for peanuts (lol Walker)

-Signing Shelly to a contract he doesnt deserve (for 5 minutes a night, ANYTHING over 1 mil is crazy. Oh and that 1 mil could be a difference maker in signing some players, say Leino)

-Not getting a #1 goalie (I know we have Bob but even the idea of a Boucher/Leighton combo for the season is a setup to fail).


Like everyone has said, Im not going to be Homer's buddy just because he can throw money at players
Those are my sentiments.

I was annoyed about the Mezaros deal because of the cap hit for a player who had done nothing the previous two years. So far, I was way wrong on that one. From what I have heard, this guy is playing great.

I was not annoyed about Leighton, because I am always of the belief that Goaltending is overrated. However, when I saw that Turco signed for next to nothing, I was somewhat irked.

The Gagne deal still doesn't sit well with me mainly because he forced himself to make that move, which meant that he traded him for nothing. Now, granted, Gagne has done nothing so far, but no one knew he would do nothing (unless Holmgren knew something, which would make him a genius). I think he could have gotten a second rounder for him at least, or some marginal prospect. But because he put himself in that position, no one would give anything.

The Ryan Parent for rights to Hamhuis was ill-conceived. We ended up getting a 3rd rounder out of it, but that was still a dumb move.

The Shelly signing seems pointless.

So, because of circumstances, I am not as angry as I was this summer, but I am still cautious. I would say of the moves this summer, the only clear cut "win" so far has been Mezaros. Parent deal, loss. Shelley, loss. Leighton, still to be decided as is the Gagne deal.

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Old
11-14-2010, 10:43 AM
  #71
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OD was a win too

Im glad Holmgren learned that Limited NTC do exist

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Old
11-14-2010, 11:01 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He's really not. He's a dude with a lot of cash behind him that inherited a rising team (Richards, Carter, and Giroux, for example, were all drafted under Clarke).

He knows how to sign checks. Great.
That is such a weak arguement.

First off, there is a salary cap so it's not like he has an unfair advantage that other teams don't. Aside from a handful of teams that are in bad markets that struggle to make the cap floor (NYI, PHO, CAR, FLA) he is playing on a level playing field with all the other teams.

He isn't Brian Burke who inherited the Ducks and then added Pronger. This team was put together when he was heading the scouting dept. I love Clarke but he even admitted Homer was doing all the heavy lifting his last few years.

Also, Homer really hasn't even taken advantage of Comcast's deep pockets like the Hawks, Rags, and Caps and other teams by stashing his mistakes in the minor or Europe (Redden, I forget the Hawks goalie and the Caps Center playing in Europe right now).

He knows how to draft, construct a team, fix his mistakes and sign checks.

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Old
11-14-2010, 11:04 AM
  #73
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I have to laugh at all the crybabies still complaining about the Shelley signing. That 1 mil in cap space is really hindering the team's success, I mean they're totally handcuffed now with that black hole of a contract. If only Brian Burke was the GM. Stop whining and enjoy the product that is on the ice.

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Old
11-14-2010, 11:07 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
No I don't, I think I'm being perfectly objective in my analysis. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sitting here claiming Homer is a terrible GM. I don't think he's in the bottom 5 of GMs. I also don't think he's in the top 5. I'd say he's certainly in the top half. What is so wrong about wanting to see improvement? Why are so many people comfortable with the status quo? We should always be improving, GM included.

And I'm not discounting the many good things he's done either. But as Jester said, the man walked into a team budding with young talent, and a buttload of money to spend. Since that season (where he spent said money) he's been making moves, and then making secondary moves to fit the former move under the cap. A little foresight would go a long way sometimes.
While he benefits from an organization that has deep pockets he is also managing the the eye of a guy that wants to WIN NOW despite what he may claim (Ed Snider). Homer is far from perfect but I would say he is a top 10 GM that has a team on the cusp and is making moves to take advantage of it. I would rather have a GM that goes for the gold ring when he is close (Amaro, Homer) then one that is content just being competitive (Reid).

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Old
11-14-2010, 11:20 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Signing Leighton 1 day before July first, trading Upshall AND a 2nd for Carcillo, First for Eminger, Signing Jones, Letting Jones go to re entry waivers,
Every GM makes bad moves. For example, the mighty Ken Holland gave away Leino for OK Tollefsen.

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