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Any love for Holmgren now?

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Old
11-14-2010, 11:32 AM
  #76
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Jester hates holmgren, He could do a better job himself........

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11-14-2010, 11:55 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Also he needs to realize that Shelley and Walker are useless wastes of cap space
walker hasnt even played a single game for us yet and he's a waste?

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11-14-2010, 12:03 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
walker hasnt even played a single game for us yet and he's a waste?
Well the defense is doing A-OK without him, so technically yes.

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11-14-2010, 01:05 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
That is such a weak arguement.

First off, there is a salary cap so it's not like he has an unfair advantage that other teams don't. Aside from a handful of teams that are in bad markets that struggle to make the cap floor (NYI, PHO, CAR, FLA) he is playing on a level playing field with all the other teams.
Who is saying he has an unfair advantage? He had two things going for him when he came in.

1) Really good young players already on the roster.

2) A boatload of cap space the following summer (Briere, Timonen, and Hartnell).

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He isn't Brian Burke who inherited the Ducks and then added Pronger. This team was put together when he was heading the scouting dept. I love Clarke but he even admitted Homer was doing all the heavy lifting his last few years.
Ah, yeah, and the reason the scouting department could give 'em guys like Carter and Richards and Giroux... is because Clarke protected his top draft picks and used 'em.

Holmgren had a team stacked with good young players that weren't ready yet when he came in. That team was so awful because it simply wasn't ready to be good, not because it was lacking for talent.

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Also, Homer really hasn't even taken advantage of Comcast's deep pockets like the Hawks, Rags, and Caps and other teams by stashing his mistakes in the minor or Europe (Redden, I forget the Hawks goalie and the Caps Center playing in Europe right now).
Well, they've operated over the cap (due to LTIR) pretty much every year under the CBA... so, not sure how true this claim is.

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He knows how to draft, construct a team, fix his mistakes and sign checks.
1) Tough to draft when you keep trading away all your picks.

2) Team construction has been a major problem under Holmgren. He can't seem to decide where to devote resources. Right now he's getting lucky with an undrafted rookie playing absolutely fantastic. We'll see how that looks come April. His failure in goal last year killed the team when it mattered most.

3) He fixes his mistakes? He's getting lucky in goal right now, as noted... most of his mistakes have cost this team the last few years to one degree or another.

4) Giving people long, guaranteed contracts is not a skill... and it carries with it risks. There's a reason Carter's cap hit is low... there's a price to everything. Then you see how some of the contracts he's given out have hurt us (Lupul).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Every GM makes bad moves. For example, the mighty Ken Holland gave away Leino for OK Tollefsen.
Ah... he had to, or he was going to waive Leino and lose him for nothing. He got a pick for Leino.

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11-14-2010, 01:08 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You just need to get over yourself. Holmgren is one of the best GMs in the game, because he's put together one of the best teams in the game. He has no prior regime to blame, he went out and built one of the best Ds in the league, one of the best groups of forwards and if Bob holds out, we're going to be in the thick of it all year and for many years to come.
So did Tallon. He got fired... deservedly. That idiot may have single handedly killed one of the few chances in the NHL for a dynasty at this point.

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11-14-2010, 01:11 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
walker hasnt even played a single game for us yet and he's a waste?
We have 7 healthy D men who are playing great, we have absolutely no need for him. Isnt that the definition of a waste of cap space? Lucky for us he is on the LTIR right now. I would have preferred to just get a 4th for Gagne.

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So did Tallon. He got fired... deservedly. That idiot may have single handedly killed one of the few chances in the NHL for a dynasty at this point.
Yeah people forget how awful his cap management was. Paying 3+ mil for Vertseeg after 1 season in the NHL, ditto with Byfuglin, and Bolland got payed too much too early as well. Add in Huet and Campbell as huge wastes of space too.

Holmgren has still made some great moves in his tenure (Coburn, signing Timonen, Leino) but each one can be countered with an idiotic move. His Giroux and Carter deals are good, so hopefully he can stop overpaying.


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Old
11-14-2010, 01:12 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
We have 7 healthy D men who are playing great, we have absolutely no need for him. Isnt that the definition of a waste of cap space? Lucky for us he is on the LTIR right now.
At least it's a 3 year contract.

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11-14-2010, 01:13 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
I have to laugh at all the crybabies still complaining about the Shelley signing. That 1 mil in cap space is really hindering the team's success, I mean they're totally handcuffed now with that black hole of a contract. If only Brian Burke was the GM. Stop whining and enjoy the product that is on the ice.
That logic is questionable though, because the point is that it is a bad contract, or at least an unnecessary one. Just because the team is playing well now, does not make the contract a good one. If he were scoring or adding in solid ways, yes, but he is not. Just because that million isn't hurting us now, who is to say it won't be a problem later? Or, one could argue that putting us so close to the cap will limit roster flexibility later in the season.

Holmgren believes that if there is any money at all under the cap, it must be used immediately. That is a dangerous ideology.

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11-14-2010, 01:20 PM
  #84
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Do we even have enough cap space for Walker to come back from LTIR?

Is Leighton also on LTIR?

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11-14-2010, 01:22 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
That logic is questionable though, because the point is that it is a bad contract, or at least an unnecessary one. Just because the team is playing well now, does not make the contract a good one. If he were scoring or adding in solid ways, yes, but he is not. Just because that million isn't hurting us now, who is to say it won't be a problem later? Or, one could argue that putting us so close to the cap will limit roster flexibility later in the season.

Holmgren believes that if there is any money at all under the cap, it must be used immediately. That is a dangerous ideology.
Yeah, our cap situation is very messy right now with the pending return of Walker and Leighton. You are also looking ahead to Bob earning a nice paycheck in bonuses if he keeps up his play, and I have no idea how that works with LTIR... but that could add to our cap next year.

The problem with Holmgren is that he does really, really dumb **** with regularity. He's had enough talent on the team to overcome his stupidity as far as getting to the playoffs the last few years, but stuff like the decision to sign Shelley... it's *ing inexplicable.

So, sure, we have a very good team. How much better might it be if he hadn't given Lupul a contract that hurt his trade value (apparently he also bid against himself for Pronger)? What might we have gotten for Upshall if we weren't in cap hell? Maybe we could have added a piece last year if Randy Jones didn't have that moronic contract that we ended up paying half of for him to play in LA.

Not everything is going to work out... but so much of the stuff that hasn't worked out for Holmgren were bad ideas the moment they were made.

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11-14-2010, 01:24 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Every GM makes bad moves. For example, the mighty Ken Holland gave away Leino for OK Tollefsen.
When you win a Cup or 4, sometimes that can be overlooked.

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11-14-2010, 01:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
When you win a Cup or 4, sometimes that can be overlooked.
Well, shouldn't be overlooked. The Red Wings were going to lose Leino... and he got something for him.

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11-14-2010, 01:36 PM
  #88
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Hmmmm ... which seems more likely, that Jester really does know more than the GM of the Flyers, and Holmgren "got lucky" that Bob is a NHL caliber goalie and that Gagne looks spent, or that maybe, just maybe, the GM of an NHL hockey team had more information than a random poster on a message board and allocated his resources in a way that he thought gave his team the best chance to win?

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11-14-2010, 01:36 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, shouldn't be overlooked. The Red Wings were going to lose Leino... and he got something for him.
OK. I like your way better.

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11-14-2010, 01:36 PM
  #90
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Jester, You have valid points, but it still remains that you give absolutly no credit to homer for some of his decisions. He went against what everyone said and traded for mez, who has been in the top 3 players for this team at the moment.

You have to give credit where it is due

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11-14-2010, 01:42 PM
  #91
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In all actuality, it is still too early. The Flyers were in a similar position last year as they are now, and within a month the coach had been fired, and a week later we were 14th in the Conference.

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11-14-2010, 01:46 PM
  #92
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Homer is usually a pretty decent judge of talent. His cap and pick management are horrible. And, no, handing out longterm deals to keep a cap hit low isn't management. It's, almost literally, a coin flip.

He has made some quality moves, gotten VERY lucky on some, and has been fleeced quite a few times. Bidding against himself for Pronger, the Leighton debacle, taking on longterm salary from TB, handing out picks like they grow on trees, etc.

He isn't total garbage, but he is no savior either. In reality, he's more of a case study on why former players shouldn't be in charge of bean counting.

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11-14-2010, 01:48 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Hmmmm ... which seems more likely, that Jester really does know more than the GM of the Flyers, and Holmgren "got lucky" that Bob is a NHL caliber goalie and that Gagne looks spent, or that maybe, just maybe, the GM of an NHL hockey team had more information than a random poster on a message board and allocated his resources in a way that he thought gave his team the best chance to win?
If Michael Leighton doesn't get hurt, Bob is in the AHL right now. If Holmgren had all that information, why did he bother to sign Leighton?

He got lucky... no one. NO ONE expected Bob to start the year with the Flyers.

I had no problem with the concept of trading Gagne... but picking up a 3 year contract for a D we don't need? Stupid. Really, really stupid -- after giving out that atrocious Shelley contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Jester, You have valid points, but it still remains that you give absolutly no credit to homer for some of his decisions. He went against what everyone said and traded for mez, who has been in the top 3 players for this team at the moment.

You have to give credit where it is due
Mez has been solid... he has not been one of the top 3 players for this team, however.

I'm also not sure why you believe he went against what everyone said... the primary concern with Mez was his cap hit given his unwillingness to move any of the top 4 for something else -- something we may be doing next year anyway. Strengthening the bottom of the D was something everyone was behind.

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11-14-2010, 01:49 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Hmmmm ... which seems more likely, that Jester really does know more than the GM of the Flyers, and Holmgren "got lucky" that Bob is a NHL caliber goalie and that Gagne looks spent, or that maybe, just maybe, the GM of an NHL hockey team had more information than a random poster on a message board and allocated his resources in a way that he thought gave his team the best chance to win?
We are lucky that Leighton got hurt and Bob got a chance

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11-14-2010, 01:51 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
In all actuality, it is still too early. The Flyers were in a similar position last year as they are now, and within a month the coach had been fired, and a week later we were 14th in the Conference.
Yes, it's kind of remarkable how quickly the amnesia from year to year rebuilds itself concerning how silly things are early in the year. By game 20 you tend to know what you got, but it still isn't a sure thing. Every year there seems to be at least one or two teams that come out gangbusters before falling apart. Us last year... the Sens a couple years back looked like the best team in the league by a wide margin early on.

I remember a few years back Boston started like 19-4 and then missed the playoffs.

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11-14-2010, 01:55 PM
  #96
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Yeah Sens started amazingly one year, then the whole 2nd half the pretty much played 500 hockey and limped in. I think they started 16-0 or something

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11-14-2010, 02:04 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, it's kind of remarkable how quickly the amnesia from year to year rebuilds itself concerning how silly things are early in the year. By game 20 you tend to know what you got, but it still isn't a sure thing. Every year there seems to be at least one or two teams that come out gangbusters before falling apart. Us last year... the Sens a couple years back looked like the best team in the league by a wide margin early on.

I remember a few years back Boston started like 19-4 and then missed the playoffs.
That Ottawa team also lost in the Finals the year before.

You just truly do not know how much those physical and mental rigors will take their toll on the team until April.

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11-14-2010, 02:37 PM
  #98
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You guys saying the Gagne trade was bad have no idea why he was traded, do you?

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11-14-2010, 02:38 PM
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This thread only reinforces the fact that HFBoard's universal theme is "What have you done for me lately?"
Hockeys Future with the GIVE IT TO ME THE **** NOW! mentality, it's quite nice.

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11-14-2010, 02:42 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrieresSalary View Post
You guys saying the Gagne trade was bad have no idea why he was traded, do you?
Was he traded because he helped mount the 3-0 comeback against Boston? Was he traded because we would rather have Shelley and Walker take up cap space?

We all know he is injury prone, but that doesnt mean the trade was good. It would have been better to trade him for Future considerations than for Walker

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