HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Any love for Holmgren now?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-14-2010, 02:54 PM
  #101
Alchemy
Philadelphia Flyers
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 12,468
vCash: 500
A lot of Holmgren haters on this board..

I don't care what anyone says. He has iced a damn good team that is fun to watch. One of the best teams in the NHL. Every GM makes bad moves. Nobody is perfect. Our fanbase HAS to complain about something so it is what it is.

Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 02:56 PM
  #102
Alchemy
Philadelphia Flyers
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 12,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Hmmmm ... which seems more likely, that Jester really does know more than the GM of the Flyers, and Holmgren "got lucky" that Bob is a NHL caliber goalie and that Gagne looks spent, or that maybe, just maybe, the GM of an NHL hockey team had more information than a random poster on a message board and allocated his resources in a way that he thought gave his team the best chance to win?
Everything good Homer does is luck.

Its laughable.

I like this post. HFboards needs a like option like facebook. Armchair GMs!

Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 03:06 PM
  #103
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrieresSalary View Post
You guys saying the Gagne trade was bad have no idea why he was traded, do you?
No. 1 rule of a salary dump trade: don't take on unnecessary salary in return.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 03:47 PM
  #104
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,862
vCash: 500
I think we're all feeling pretty euphoric now because of the two extensions given this week. It's hard to think back to the Shelley contract, the Leighton contract, keeping Stevens way too long, getting rid of Downie, having to trade Upshall and a second for Carcillo because Homer screwed up the cap etc. It seems there is no middle ground with him, either he does horribly or phenomenally with very little in between.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 03:56 PM
  #105
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
He also signed Shelley on July 1st! not the 2nd or the 5th. That means he was planning to contact Shelley the whole time, waste of time

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:00 PM
  #106
might2mash
Post-apocalyptic
 
might2mash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: South Bend
Country: United States
Posts: 4,616
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to might2mash
He's made a lot of good moves and a lot of stupid moves. He would be a terrible GM for a team that had a budget below the cap, and still struggles with the budget imposed by the cap itself, but he could do a lot worse overall.

might2mash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:13 PM
  #107
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
can we all just agree that he is mediocre?

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:29 PM
  #108
wahoowa
All in the Game
 
wahoowa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 945
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
can we all just agree that he is mediocre?
Exactly. Too many radicals on here claiming he's the worst or the best. He's made some screw ups (Jones, Gagne trade [really, taking on Walker more than trading Gagne]) and he's made some very good moves (Leino trade, Coburn trade, Giroux/Carter cap hits).

In my opinion, he rates in the middle of the spectrum of GMs, but he's certainly iced a real good team. That's the most important thing to me.

wahoowa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:35 PM
  #109
chaosof99*
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Austria
Country: Austria
Posts: 16,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
can we all just agree that he is mediocre?
"Mediocre" doesn't take a last place team and visits the Conference finals, and again two years later.

Holmgren isn't perfect. He has had his fair share of ****-ups, but he is a very good GM. His success proves it.

chaosof99* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:36 PM
  #110
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,480
vCash: 5500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CavemanLawyer View Post
Hockeys Future with the GIVE IT TO ME THE **** NOW! mentality, it's quite nice.
No, that's the Philadelphia Flyers mentality. Success is achieved when the team reaches the ultimate goal.


Bob Clarke took the same heat for ignoring team needs back in the day, and he didn't even have to deal with a salary cap, and his asset management was still decent.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:49 PM
  #111
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof View Post
I think we're all feeling pretty euphoric now because of the two extensions given this week. It's hard to think back to the Shelley contract, the Leighton contract, keeping Stevens way too long, getting rid of Downie, having to trade Upshall and a second for Carcillo because Homer screwed up the cap etc. It seems there is no middle ground with him, either he does horribly or phenomenally with very little in between.
I actually don't blame Holmgren for the Downie trade. I think Downie would never had made it as a Flyer because I believe the refs and the league would never give him the chance. Call me conspiracy theorist or what not, but that poor guy could not catch a break and needed to go to a hockey backwater area like TB to get away from all the hate.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:51 PM
  #112
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
"Mediocre" doesn't take a last place team and visits the Conference finals, and again two years later.

Holmgren isn't perfect. He has had his fair share of ****-ups, but he is a very good GM. His success proves it.
I think Holmgren does good deals. I probably would say that 60-70% of the deals he has made actually were either well conceived or panned out well. But when he makes bad deals, they seem so bad or bizarre that it takes the luster off of the good ones.

The way he gets rid of 2nd round picks is ridiculous. he throws them in on every deal. Granted, 2nd rounders are no guarantees, but why throw them away so easily? Like the one WITH Upshall for Carcillo? As if Upshall isn't enough for Carcillo.

In a Cap world, draft picks are valuable and should not be gotten rid of so easily. The First rounder for Eminger was another idiotic deal. (I think the picks for Pronger were well spent, as Pronger is worth almost any payment. I think that is one of Holmgren's best trades to date).

It seems like Holmgren puts himself in positions where he is dealing from weakness or desperation, which limits the amount of return.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:56 PM
  #113
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
He's made a lot of good moves and a lot of stupid moves. He would be a terrible GM for a team that had a budget below the cap, and still struggles with the budget imposed by the cap itself, but he could do a lot worse overall.
I actually think Holmgren would do a bit better if he was with a team that placed a bit more constraints on him financially. He is very good as a talent evaluator, IMO. He struggles when he moves away from that area and starts dealing with veterans and trying to manage his cap and contracts.

People forget that Sather was a really, really good GM when he was in Edmonton. He got a lot out of a limited budget up there. When he got to NYR, and had lots of money to work with, he started to look like an idiot.

I mean, sure, celebrate the Carter cap hit... but it's really amazing that this is being presented as some genius move. Signing players to massive long-term contracts isn't exactly difficult.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 04:58 PM
  #114
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Was he traded because he helped mount the 3-0 comeback against Boston? Was he traded because we would rather have Shelley and Walker take up cap space?

We all know he is injury prone, but that doesnt mean the trade was good. It would have been better to trade him for Future considerations than for Walker
Exactly. I think it would have been much better as a future consideration deal. We took on Walker apparently to help TB get rid of salary. I would rather have just traded Gagne for Future considerations based upon games played or points.

Gagne for a 4th rounder and salary cap dump is a desperation move, which GMs should avoid.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 05:08 PM
  #115
RJ8812
Gunner Stahl #9
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sudbury
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,364
vCash: 769
Quote:
Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
He's made a lot of good moves and a lot of stupid moves. He would be a terrible GM for a team that had a budget below the cap, and still struggles with the budget imposed by the cap itself, but he could do a lot worse overall.
how would you know that? I'm sure he would have a different approach if that was the case

RJ8812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 06:32 PM
  #116
Dr. Octagon
Registered User
 
Dr. Octagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Born on Jupiter
Posts: 172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No. 1 rule of a salary dump trade: don't take on unnecessary salary in return.
Tampa has a salary cap too, ya know. The Flyers had to take Walker because Tampa was taking on a lot of salary. Look it up

Dr. Octagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 07:08 PM
  #117
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrieresSalary View Post
You guys saying the Gagne trade was bad have no idea why he was traded, do you?
Are you for real?

Do you have any idea why we are saying it was bad? Because it has nothing to do with us not knowing why he was moved. Most of us KNEW he would be moved, and were accepting of that fact.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 07:10 PM
  #118
HoverCarle*
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,859
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to HoverCarle*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
Tampa has a salary cap too, ya know. The Flyers had to take Walker because Tampa was taking on a lot of salary. Look it up
We had already taken Meszaros for them

HoverCarle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 07:13 PM
  #119
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,255
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by harakiri View Post
Everything good Homer does is luck.

Its laughable.

I like this post. HFboards needs a like option like facebook. Armchair GMs!

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 07:18 PM
  #120
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
Tampa has a salary cap too, ya know. The Flyers had to take Walker because Tampa was taking on a lot of salary. Look it up
They are 9 million under at the moment. You could attempt to argue that they have an internal budget but even then, you're argument is a stretch. If Walker was taken merely for salary purposes, Homer would not have spoken of him (in the press conference) as if he were some integral piece.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 07:45 PM
  #121
lancer247
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,993
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No. 1 rule of a salary dump trade: don't take on unnecessary salary in return.
TB doesn't do the trade unless the Flyers took Walker's salary back. The only team Gagne would agree to be traded to would not take on his full salary. Gagne was given a NTC back before the cap an homer got stuck with it.

lancer247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 07:54 PM
  #122
RJ8812
Gunner Stahl #9
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sudbury
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,364
vCash: 769
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
TB doesn't do the trade unless the Flyers took Walker's salary back. The only team Gagne would agree to be traded to would not take on his full salary. Gagne was given a NTC back before the cap an homer got stuck with it.
Not true. He signed this contract back in 2006

RJ8812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 08:43 PM
  #123
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
Tampa has a salary cap too, ya know. The Flyers had to take Walker because Tampa was taking on a lot of salary. Look it up
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
TB doesn't do the trade unless the Flyers took Walker's salary back. The only team Gagne would agree to be traded to would not take on his full salary. Gagne was given a NTC back before the cap an homer got stuck with it.
...then don't make the *ing trade. The whole situation was a conscious decision by Holmgren, they didn't put a gun to his head and make him put a boatload of cash into the D and force him into a situation where he HAD to trade Gagne.

Not to mention:

Shelley 1.1M +
Zherdev 2M +
Leighton 1.55M +
Walker 1.7M

= 6.35M

Shelley and Zherdev alone off this roster is more than half Gagne's salary for this year... and Shelley almost certainly will not dress come playoff time.

And if you are taking salary back... don't take 3 damn years of it.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 09:03 PM
  #124
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...then don't make the *ing trade. The whole situation was a conscious decision by Holmgren, they didn't put a gun to his head and make him put a boatload of cash into the D and force him into a situation where he HAD to trade Gagne.

Not to mention:

Shelley 1.1M +
Zherdev 2M +
Leighton 1.55M +
Walker 1.7M

= 6.35M

Shelley and Zherdev alone off this roster is more than half Gagne's salary for this year... and Shelley almost certainly will not dress come playoff time.

And if you are taking salary back... don't take 3 damn years of it.
I really, truly, cannot comprehend how people don't understand this.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-14-2010, 09:07 PM
  #125
Terence Peterman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 5,296
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by harakiri View Post
Everything good Homer does is luck.

Its laughable.
It's not that it's luck, it's that it's his job to put the team in a good position, and he hasn't done as well as he could have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
"Mediocre" doesn't take a last place team and visits the Conference finals, and again two years later.

Holmgren isn't perfect. He has had his fair share of ****-ups, but he is a very good GM. His success proves it.
That's like saying Warren Harding was a good president because he got elected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I actually don't blame Holmgren for the Downie trade. I think Downie would never had made it as a Flyer because I believe the refs and the league would never give him the chance. Call me conspiracy theorist or what not, but that poor guy could not catch a break and needed to go to a hockey backwater area like TB to get away from all the hate.
Downie never had a shot of making it here because John ****ing Stevens was never going to give it to him. That move is a really good look at Holmgren as a GM -- keep the coach and ditch the player, and then realize the coach is incompetent and lose the him (much, much later...too late). In the end, he loses both pieces, and has taken a stand on both instances so poorly timed it ****s with the team twice (can you imagine Downie on this team now? It would be ridiculous).

Terence Peterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:19 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.