Okay, after initial jubilation and enjoying a great game at the WFC, and then a night to sleep on it and a time of skimming this thread today... I have come away feeling no less elated, and even more secure in a couple more ways than I did last night.
I agree that as Jester pointed out, and other alluded to, long term deals as DiPietro's can be damaging... But Philadelphia is in a better position than LI and Center is a better situation than a goalie. Unless it is like DP a long term but not career ending situation the Flyers can eat the $5.275 cap and $58M cash. Other players can center, picking up the slack and he is not the franchise anything at this point; they can be fine if he falls flat on his face and can retire if warranted at any point due to injury or whatever, and can be compensated monetarily, yet off the cap as I understand things... DP is an albatross on LI, I believe it would be a stretch for Carter to be here on top tier healthy Organization with the likes of Richards, Giroux, Briere, Lieno(?) etal.
... What I have come to see more clearly today is that Carter's foregoing shopping himself or being poached and matched at a much higher Cap hit has allowed the Flyers to keep better quality role players on additional player(s) over the next 11 seasons. For example: if instead of $5.275M he took lss years and more money or was poached and matched at (let's say) $8M the Flyers would have to steal from Peter (other players) $2.725M to pay Paul (Carter)... This could mean replacing Betts and Powe with cheaper and less talented PKers, or bringing in $0.5M farmhands to be role players. Even Nodl could be too expensive, and a Carcillo may have to be moved for the difference... Or maybe JvR would have to not be allowed to be given the to develop, all being replaced with $0.5M players who would have to be replaced once their contracts grew... to maintain the core players on board... Or they would have to go the Devils route and skim layers and go light; no extras... Or the good young D-men would have to be broken u before they would be replacing Kimmo and Prongs.
All in all, I see the ca friendly long deal that Homer signed Carts to as being an easement that can allow a Lieno to be signed and Betts and Powe kill the power penalties, and Nodl to be depth rather than an unproven kid that needs time in the 'A'.
As bad a rap as Homer gets with his Cap management -- and in cases earned -- he IMO has pulled off a great Cap management move yesterday... after a good one with Giroux earlier last week.
Carter himself admitted he could have gotten more money somewhere else, but he likes the core here and believes there is a good chance to win here.
In a non-selfish manner, I see his signing as one that benefits everybody in helping the Flyers reach their only goal: Lord Stanley's Cup.
I hate that the Cap and business has all but killed the team and player reciprocated loyalties... but for every Gagne type action the Flyers seem to counter with one such as this. I'm getting the feeling that the players are feeling the loyalty more than most teams do theses days... but somehow the Flyers -- read Snider's -- family oriented policy seems to still be apparent... and face it, long standing Flyers players almost always feel they are eternal Flyers and not mere assets... I just wish the Gagne trade could have been avoided, no matter how much sense it ultimately made... sigh
Carter was still an RFA, so it would have been irrelevant. He wasn't going anywhere.
I don't believe that was the case... He could have signed an offer-sheet that could have pressed the Flyers in BOTH length and higher Cap it... or as arbitration eligible he could have taken the Flyers to the arbitrators and gotten more money to bide his time until he was an UFA the following season. That would have not sat well with the Flyers -- as it never does -- and could have forced their hand to ante up or move him.
IMO, Carter held the better hand... If he didn't care to stay a Flyer, or didn't believe in how far the team can go, he could have stirred the pot.
I don't believe that was the case... He could have signed an offer-sheet that could have pressed the Flyers in BOTH length and higher Cap it... or as arbitration eligible he could have taken the Flyers to the arbitrators and gotten more money to bide his time until he was an UFA the following season. That would have not sat well with the Flyers -- as it never does -- and could have forced their hand to ante up or move him.
IMO, Carter held the better hand... If he didn't care to stay a Flyer, or didn't believe in how far the team can go, he could have stirred the pot.
Carter was arbitration eligible, he was not going to see an offer sheet. He may have gotten a big 1-year deal and then been an UFA. Offer sheet was not a concern, though.
If it was player elected arbitration, offer sheet was definitely still a factor.
Arbitration eligibility doesnt protect you, filing for arbitration does. If Carter wanted an offer sheet all he would have to do was not file for arbitration
If it was player elected arbitration, offer sheet was definitely still a factor.
Arbitration eligibility doesnt protect you, filing for arbitration does. If Carter wanted an offer sheet all he would have to do was not file for arbitration
No, the Flyers could have taken him to arbitration. Which they would have done and then tried to work out a long-term deal in advance.
Love it. As for the building a good team and Snider angles, all I can say is - for the umpteenth time - the Flyers are legitimately one of the great franchises in sports. It's refreshing to see players who want to play for a specific club and that the club will reward them in turn. It's a cycle, and it's something Snider has been building for many, many years.
Carter was arbitration eligible, he was not going to see an offer sheet. He may have gotten a big 1-year deal and then been an UFA. Offer sheet was not a concern, though.
Why do you say that? Is it the arbitration taking it off the board as Hovercraft posted about, or do you just feel that such large offer-sheets were not being made due to lack of Cap space around the League among those who can afford to pay him? I know that the OSs are not in play as they were coming out of the Lockout.
Why do you say that? Is it the arbitration taking it off the board as Hovercraft posted about, or do you just feel that such large offer-sheets were not being made due to lack of Cap space around the League among those who can afford to pay him? I know that the OSs are not in play as they were coming out of the Lockout.
Arbitration eligibility gives you cover, because it doesn't let teams make offer sheets to guys. However, you aren't arbitration eligible until you've played 4 pro years... which is why the guys coming off ELCs are really the only guys you can potentially look at targeting (unless a team has taken a guy to arbitration prior to then, and he is no longer arbitration eligible, but still a RFA). This is why the 3 years + 3 years contract path makes a lot of sense for teams... and what Carter and now Giroux got. You then re-sign them in their final year of RFA, and if the negotiations are a struggle you at least have arbitration leverage to figure something out.
Love it. As for the building a good team and Snider angles, all I can say is - for the umpteenth time - the Flyers are legitimately one of the great franchises in sports. It's refreshing to see players who want to play for a specific club and that the club will reward them in turn. It's a cycle, and it's something Snider has been building for many, many years.
On a related note; aside from an occasional snipe about the Sixers and the lack of attention by a hockey guy, when was the last time Snider has been attacked?
For a while it seemed that Mr. Snider was getting hit unfairly and not as respected as he always was... Granted, it was from the usual wahoos who piss and moan about everything under the sun, but just the same I didn't like reading/hearing it.
Arbitration eligibility gives you cover, because it doesn't let teams make offer sheets to guys. However, you aren't arbitration eligible until you've played 4 pro years... which is why the guys coming off ELCs are really the only guys you can potentially look at targeting (unless a team has taken a guy to arbitration prior to then, and he is no longer arbitration eligible, but still a RFA). This is why the 3 years + 3 years contract path makes a lot of sense for teams... and what Carter and now Giroux got. You then re-sign them in their final year of RFA, and if the negotiations are a struggle you at least have arbitration leverage to figure something out.
I see... they can file for arbitration BEFORE they are allowed to be signed to an OS. The rules are at times too many to keep up on; my apologies on my oversight.
Still, Carter could have either gone for the one year or short contract -- arbitration or hammered out -- and than taken advantage of the open market and his record to work up his contract had he not desired to stay put and be happy with a mere $58M ( ) ... Basically he still held the better hand had he wanted to play it, as I see it.
I see... they can file for arbitration BEFORE they are allowed to be signed to an OS. The rules are at times too many to keep up on; my apologies on my oversight.
Still, Carter could have either gone for the one year or short contract -- arbitration or hammered out -- and than taken advantage of the open market and his record to work up his contract had he not desired to stay put and be happy with a mere $58M ( ) ... Basically he still held the better hand had he wanted to play it, as I see it.
I mean... it's important to not present this as if Carter did something for the Flyers without getting anything out of it. Could he have sought to earn more in his career by signing a series of shorter deals? Yes. However, from his side, there is risk there because if he suffers an injury... struggles... whatever, then future contracts might go down.
Carter just got a guaranteed $58M. He could go out there next week and blow his knee apart and he'd still get $58M. So, sure, he gives up a bit of potential earnings, but purchases complete security for that.
I mean... it's important to not present this as if Carter did something for the Flyers without getting anything out of it. Could he have sought to earn more in his career by signing a series of shorter deals? Yes. However, from his side, there is risk there because if he suffers an injury... struggles... whatever, then future contracts might go down.
Carter just got a guaranteed $58M. He could go out there next week and blow his knee apart and he'd still get $58M. So, sure, he gives up a bit of potential earnings, but purchases complete security for that.
Oh certainly; I agree... it is by no means a one sided deal. Both have taken risks and both have conceded possible better case scenarios.
I have thought of everything you said... It is just that it seems to be the case that talented player -- and even those not as gifted -- look for the home run... In taking the bird in hand windfall Carter has given up what in all probability is the one shot he has to make a giant killing that could placed him among the uppermost elite and stroked his ego.
I honestly believe that he wants to stay here and believes in his teammates and their chances to win a Cup or more... And I honestly believe the Flyers believe he will justify their faith in him. The Flyers took an gamble that could come back and bite them in the ass... as you pointed out earlier -- BUT saw that by Carter giving an home town discount they can better manage their Cap for at least the short to mid term.
In the end, I like to see both side compromise and move forward... Yes, Carter actually is taking the least chances as he has $58M guaranteed going forward, and pretty much front loaded. If he poops the bed they Flyers are up the creek and he is set up for life. Conversely, if he has a great career and is scoring ten years down the road, the Flyers will have had a bargain basement priced superstar and money to spend elsewhere... We will see (hopefully).
I have thought of everything you said... It is just that it seems to be the case that talented player -- and even those not as gifted -- look for the home run... In taking the bird in hand windfall Carter has given up what in all probability is the one shot he has to make a giant killing that could placed him among the uppermost elite and stroked his ego.
Ah... everyone is looking for these types of deals at this point. They are quite common amongst good players at this point because teams have decided they are more concerned about the short term than the long-term risks these deals pose. In most cases, you'll be fine (the majority of these guys will have solid careers and avoid terrible injuries). However, you increase the probability of getting burned when you start stacking long-term deals.
So, while I've said for some time I didn't think Carter would be particularly hard to sign (he is close with Richards by all accounts, and seems to really like playing here...), this is a no brainer for him. He can talk about how he may have gotten more money in a different type of deal, or from a different team... but seeking that would carry with it massive risk. There are a lot of very good players who aren't so great by the time they hit their 30s because of injuries, etc.
Ah... everyone is looking for these types of deals at this point. They are quite common amongst good players at this point because teams have decided they are more concerned about the short term than the long-term risks these deals pose. In most cases, you'll be fine (the majority of these guys will have solid careers and avoid terrible injuries). However, you increase the probability of getting burned when you start stacking long-term deals.
So, while I've said for some time I didn't think Carter would be particularly hard to sign (he is close with Richards by all accounts, and seems to really like playing here...), this is a no brainer for him. He can talk about how he may have gotten more money in a different type of deal, or from a different team... but seeking that would carry with it massive risk. There are a lot of very good players who aren't so great by the time they hit their 30s because of injuries, etc.
Now that Carter has the checks in the mail and the security for the prime of his career and maybe even beyond... and there are most likely no contracts for him to ever earn again... it is time for Carter to play on honor and pride and for his team. My guess is that there are some who lose the drive and become 'fat cats'.
Richards has accepted the challenge without missing a beat... BUT... The Flyers are Richards' team and he wears the 'C' and is the leader; there is a difference.
A good thing that has come with Carter's so wanting to stay here long-term is just that; he wants to stay here long-term. My guess is that he will play his best for his team and his pride and his legacy... and most of all to skate around the rink the trophy that he has dreamt about almost his entire life.
The Flyers seem to be a gambling team... always have been... They will roll the dice on the Emerys and the Zherdevs for the chance to get the top bang for their buck... They will obtain all the top selections that never made it on the chance that that 'project player' will find what they once had... They are as I see rolling the dice in the Cap Era -- an era without clear history -- on locking in key core players that they feel are proven and can win under a Cap... They have staggered the core with old and young and have some of the future players already in the fold. For better or worse they are married to Richards and Carter and Brier and Pronger for a long time and some exceptional players for a lesser extended period.
Damn it! I go on record as saying that if Bob is the real deal, they are in excellent shape for years to come... or not.
Now that Carter has the checks in the mail and the security for the prime of his career and maybe even beyond... and there are most likely no contracts for him to ever earn again... it is time for Carter to play on honor and pride and for his team. My guess is that there are some who lose the drive and become 'fat cats'.
Richards has accepted the challenge without missing a beat... BUT... The Flyers are Richards' team and he wears the 'C' and is the leader; there is a difference.
A good thing that has come with Carter's so wanting to stay here long-term is just that; he wants to stay here long-term. My guess is that he will play his best for his team and his pride and his legacy... and most of all to skate around the rink the trophy that he has dreamt about almost his entire life.
The Flyers seem to be a gambling team... always have been... They will roll the dice on the Emerys and the Zherdevs for the chance to get the top bang for their buck... They will obtain all the top selections that never made it on the chance that that 'project player' will find what they once had... They are as I see rolling the dice in the Cap Era -- an era without clear history -- on locking in key core players that they feel are proven and can win under a Cap... They have staggered the core with old and young and have some of the future players already in the fold. For better or worse they are married to Richards and Carter and Brier and Pronger for a long time and some exceptional players for a lesser extended period.
Damn it! I go on record as saying that if Bob is the real deal, they are in excellent shape for years to come... or not.
