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How long until Giroux gets the recognition he deserves?(What's his potential?)

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Old
11-15-2010, 12:22 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post

So does ninety percent of the league and practically every fourth liner out there.

Nothing in your post suggests that he doesn't get enough recognition. You also always go around saying that Giroux makes his teammates better and that Carter doesn't despite having no proof for either of those things.
On the first comments, yeah, OK.

On the second part Giroux makes guys better, just look at how many players have goals due to his ability to create the space and put the puck on the stick. Little things like guys keeping their sticks on the ice because they know to expect teh unexpected with Giroux, he is a more dynamic player.

In regards to Carter is has been stated over and over again, put a couple monkeys on his line and they become 40-50pt players. He does not try to share the puck, does not create the space for others, and relies on shooting the puck to get his assists and not making tape to tape passes to get it done. Different players, period. If you just watch them play you can tell the difference.......and I mean really watch how the defenses cover each player coming up the ice or when one gets the puck along the boards versus the other.

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11-15-2010, 12:24 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Lumping in playoff stats with regular season stats totally makes sense.



So far, the biggest difference I've noticed is that he's gotten more then half his goals on lone breakaways. Another thing I've noticed is that it's only been 17 games.



Because being realistic is the same as *****ing in your mind.

I guess calling everyone here calling him a star already and being guaranteed for a breakout season a **** sucker is just as valid as saying that anyone being realistic is *****ing.

If you really don't think that Giroux gets the recognition he deserves then I have no clue what to tell you.
And you complain about my treatment of Carter.

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11-15-2010, 12:26 PM
  #28
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
On the first comments, yeah, OK.
Yeah, you keep on believing that the majority of NHL professional athletes don't "come to play every night". Act like that's not how the vast majority of fourth liners make a living. Keep on believing that Giroux is somehow special in that regard.

These are NHL athletes. They wouldn't have gotten to where they are without driving themselves.

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11-15-2010, 12:29 PM
  #29
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
And you complain about my treatment of Carter.
You think we should trade Carter, you flat-out make stuff up to try and argue about Carter, you ignore any counter-points that prove you wrong, and literally ninety percent of your posts on this board are about Carter. Even your username is "Cartsiephan". You're also pretty much universally recognized on this board as a troll or at least someone with an insane bias against Carter for w/e reason(s).

Yeah, that's all totally the same thing as keeping my expectations grounded for Giroux.

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11-15-2010, 12:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Lumping in playoff stats with regular season stats totally makes sense.



So far, the biggest difference I've noticed is that he's gotten more then half his goals on lone breakaways. Another thing I've noticed is that it's only been 17 games.




Because being realistic is the same as *****ing in your mind.

I guess calling everyone here calling him a star already and being guaranteed for a breakout season a **** sucker is just as valid as saying that anyone being realistic is *****ing.

If you really don't think that Giroux gets the recognition he deserves then I have no clue what to tell you.
Im not calling him a star, and I agree this thread isnt needed. But why cant this be his breakout season? 17 games isnt something to put off. You can see how he plays with better linemates. But see comments like "he just gets goals on breakaways" makes it sound like it isnt really an achievement. It's pretty hard to block the puck, blow past the defender and play it by the goalie then it is to stand there and receive a pass and tap it in. His goals arent easy. He makes them look easy because of his skill.

But see comments like that arent fair at all. He is doing well, but to say he hasnt improved and wont this season is more shortsighted then realistic. Non-realistic is him playing 5-6 seasons putting up 40-50 points and then us expecting 80+ points. A season and a half at 22 yrs old and then putting up 80 points is realistic

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11-15-2010, 12:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Yeah, you keep on believing that the majority of NHL professional athletes don't "come to play every night". Act like that's not how the vast majority of fourth liners make a living. Keep on believing that Giroux is somehow special in that regard.

These are NHL athletes. They wouldn't have gotten to where they are without driving themselves.
This Flyers team did not come to play for all of Oct-Nov and into Dec, not just one player but the WHOLE TEAM, what is your point? He has played in 17 games and not scored in only five, averaging a ppg. Ooooops, sorry, breakaway goals, shorthanded goals do not count, my bad.

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11-15-2010, 12:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
You think we should trade Carter, you flat-out make stuff up to try and argue about Carter, you ignore any counter-points that prove you wrong, and literally ninety percent of your posts on this board are about Carter. Even your username is "Cartsiephan". You're also pretty much universally recognized on this board as a troll or at least someone with an insane bias against Carter for w/e reason(s).

Yeah, that's all totally the same thing as keeping my expectations grounded for Giroux.
WTF do you not understand about forums? It is an opinion that I thought moving Carter would have been a good alternative move, the GM made a decision that keeping him to an 11yr/$58mill contract extension. He is here, now the onus is on him to live up to the contract and prove me wrong for all the reasons I questioned him about.

Yup, because someone thinks that how fans think Carter is overrated is delusional but your opinion of Giroux is spot on.....! Seriously, get a grip dude.........IT IS A FORUM, FOR TALK ABOUT VARYING OPINIONS. Why is this so hard for people to understand?


Claude Giroux when it counts....29GP, 12goals, 14assts, 26pts, +9
Jeff Carter when it counts....41GP, 12goals, 7assts, 19pts, -11


Ohhhhh, that's right, Carter got out of the hospital bed and on crutches came out to play in half those games....

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11-15-2010, 12:37 PM
  #33
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breakaways aren't automatic goals. Just ask scott hartnell.

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11-15-2010, 12:41 PM
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Recognition? Isn't that what his brand new contract his all about?

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11-15-2010, 12:50 PM
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G has been one of our best forwards so far this season; he's always had incredible talent, but in a meager season and a half of limited playing time with less-than-optimal linemates, he hasn't had huge numbers. So that somehow is a reason to doubt his ceiling despite evidence that he's putting it together?

C'mon. The kid is having a great year and putting up the kind of numbers everyone has been expecting him to reach with the talent level he has. I know we here in Philadelphia are used to disappointment, but being 'realistic' is not expecting a reversion to the 'mean' which has been set in a small sample size thus far.

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11-15-2010, 12:51 PM
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How can people discredit Giroux because he scores on breakaways? He's one of the most hockey intelligent and creative players on the ice every game, and those qualities lead to a lot of high percentage scoring opportunities.

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11-15-2010, 12:52 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Im not calling him a star, and I agree this thread isnt needed. But why cant this be his breakout season?
Never said it can't be.

Quote:
17 games isnt something to put off.
It's still a short enough sample size to not base everything off of. The standings will be completely different at the end of the year, Patrick Sharp is currently at PPG and on pace for over 40 goals, Tim Thomas and Mathieu Garon lead three of the four goalie stats, etc.

Quote:
You can see how he plays with better linemates. But see comments like "he just gets goals on breakaways" makes it sound like it isnt really an achievement. It's pretty hard to block the puck, blow past the defender and play it by the goalie then it is to stand there and receive a pass and tap it in. His goals arent easy. He makes them look easy because of his skill.
Literally five of his nine goals are on lone breakaways. That's fact. I'm not just spouting off "he only gets goals on breakaways" as some idiot hater. It's literally a fact that more then half of his goals are on lone breakaways.

Quote:
But see comments like that arent fair at all. He is doing well, but to say he hasnt improved and wont this season is more shortsighted then realistic.
I'm not willing to say that he's improved until later in the season. That's all. I never said he won't improve either.

Quote:
Non-realistic is him playing 5-6 seasons putting up 40-50 points and then us expecting 80+ points. A season and a half at 22 yrs old and then putting up 80 points is realistic
It is. To act as if it's a sure-fire thing is ridiculous, to call him a star already is kind of ridiculous, and to not see all the things that have been going right for him since the start of the season (meaning, things that likely won't continue for the rest of the season) is short-sighted.

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11-15-2010, 01:00 PM
  #38
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Not sure what type recognition ? In my opinion he is getting plenty of recognition from the people who matter most, his coaches, team mates and the Fans that support the Flyers.The media sings Roos praises on a daily basis, I hear his name mentioned in glowing terms on the NHL channel, by other teams play by play announcers, etc.The only other type recognition players get are from winning awards, and that is the type recognition that only Girouix himself can earn by putting up big numbers etc. And the ultimate recognition is having ones name engraved on Lord Stanleys cup, and i like Girouix's chances for that.

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11-15-2010, 01:03 PM
  #39
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All right guys, sorry. Maybe I worded the OP poorly. I guess I'll try to reword it. Given his current play and the pace he's on, do you guys think he will eventually be considered elite in the NHL? I'm not sure by who's standards I'm referring but just watching some NHL segments on sports channels or NHL specific shows, some other players get a hell of a lot more recognition than Claude does.

I personally think he has potential to be as good as anyone in the league and with the depth of the Flyers he just doesn't get the same opportunities as some "lone star" players do. I mean he averages ~3 minutes less of ice time/game than Crosby and Malkin. They obviously have more points than Giroux but it seems the Flyers' depth at the forward position spreads the game out more statistically whereas some teams have 1 or 2 great players that get more heavily relied on.

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11-15-2010, 01:04 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Never said it can't be.



It's still a short enough sample size to not base everything off of. The standings will be completely different at the end of the year, Patrick Sharp is currently at PPG and on pace for over 40 goals, Tim Thomas and Mathieu Garon lead three of the four goalie stats, etc.



Literally five of his nine goals are on lone breakaways. That's fact. I'm not just spouting off "he only gets goals on breakaways" as some idiot hater. It's literally a fact that more then half of his goals are on lone breakaways.



I'm not willing to say that he's improved until later in the season. That's all. I never said he won't improve either.



It is. To act as if it's a sure-fire thing is ridiculous, to call him a star already is kind of ridiculous, and to not see all the things that have been going right for him since the start of the season (meaning, things that likely won't continue for the rest of the season) is short-sighted.
You're right. Tim Thomas is a hack who's never demonstrated top-end ability in this league nor won any individual awards for his play. All stats at this point of the season are meaningless.


This whole debate is just stupid. On one hand, it's foolish to expect his numbers to continue trending perfectly. On the other hand, it's stupid to discount his success so far as 'things just going well for him.' The kid is incredibly talented, reads plays well, and makes opportunities for himself. It's not like he's just getting lucky and the puck is bouncing to him...he puts himself in great position and a lot of times simply imposes his will on other players. He's a great playmaker with sick talent; it's not unreasonable to think that this is simply a matter of him gaining enough confidence and playing time to make the best of it.

Trying to put some ceiling on things close to last year's numbers and be a downer about it because of what he did last year is just dumb, though.

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11-15-2010, 01:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
G has been one of our best forwards so far this season; he's always had incredible talent, but in a meager season and a half of limited playing time with less-than-optimal linemates, he hasn't had huge numbers. So that somehow is a reason to doubt his ceiling despite evidence that he's putting it together?

C'mon. The kid is having a great year and putting up the kind of numbers everyone has been expecting him to reach with the talent level he has. I know we here in Philadelphia are used to disappointment, but being 'realistic' is not expecting a reversion to the 'mean' which has been set in a small sample size thus far.
Since April 2010

Briere: 43 GP - 22 G - 24 A - 46 P - 1.07 PPG - 88 PPace
Giroux: 46 GP - 21 G - 23 A - 44 P - 0.96 PPG - 79 PPace
Richards: 46 GP - 16 G - 27 A - 43 P - 0.93 PPG - 76 PPace
Leino: 40 GP - 10 G - 27 A - 37 P - 0.93 PPG - 76 PPace
Carter: 31 GP - 13 G - 10 A - 23 P - 0.74 PPG - 61 PPace
Hartnell: 46 GP - 14 G - 16 A - 30 P - 0.65 PPG - 53 PPace

He's been our second highest scoring forward for over half a hockey year now (41 games = 1/2 hockey year).

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11-15-2010, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Never said it can't be.



It's still a short enough sample size to not base everything off of. The standings will be completely different at the end of the year, Patrick Sharp is currently at PPG and on pace for over 40 goals, Tim Thomas and Mathieu Garon lead three of the four goalie stats, etc.



Literally five of his nine goals are on lone breakaways. That's fact. I'm not just spouting off "he only gets goals on breakaways" as some idiot hater. It's literally a fact that more then half of his goals are on lone breakaways.



I'm not willing to say that he's improved until later in the season. That's all. I never said he won't improve either.



It is. To act as if it's a sure-fire thing is ridiculous, to call him a star already is kind of ridiculous, and to not see all the things that have been going right for him since the start of the season (meaning, things that likely won't continue for the rest of the season) is short-sighted.


He has enough confidence from the coach to move him back to center and put Carter, who has appeared in ONE all-star game, on the wing.

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11-15-2010, 01:08 PM
  #43
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All right guys, sorry. Maybe I worded the OP poorly. I guess I'll try to reword it. Given his current play and the pace he's on, do you guys think he will eventually be considered elite in the NHL? I'm not sure by who's standards I'm referring but just watching some NHL segments on sports channels or NHL specific shows, some other players get a hell of a lot more recognition than Claude does.

I personally think he has potential to be as good as anyone in the league and with the depth of the Flyers he just doesn't get the same opportunities as some "lone star" players do. I mean he averages ~3 minutes less of ice time/game than Crosby and Malkin. They obviously have more points than Giroux but it seems the Flyers' depth at the forward position spreads the game out more statistically whereas with some teams that have 1 or 2 great players get more heavily relied on.
I think he'll hover around Pavel Datsyuk's production - I'm not sure G will be able to equal Pavel's back-to-back 97 point season though - 90 points will probably the limit for Giroux down the line, but I think their style of play will eventually be fairly similar.

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11-15-2010, 01:09 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
How can people discredit Giroux because he scores on breakaways? He's one of the most hockey intelligent and creative players on the ice every game, and those qualities lead to a lot of high percentage scoring opportunities.
He has the intuitive ability to keep the puck away from defenders while being able to deke a goalie, like one of the braekaways he had. He had the instinct to feel the defender and move the puck to his backhand before the d-man could reach around. It is not just his ability to score points but how well-rounded he is at this point in his career.

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11-15-2010, 01:13 PM
  #45
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Most of giroux's goals will always come on breakaways because:

1.) His shot is very weak (its seems better this year)
2.) He has great speed and is able to get breakaways
3.) Because he is dangly as sin.

Giroux is a Playmaker and Dangler,

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11-15-2010, 01:16 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
I think he'll hover around Pavel Datsyuk's production - I'm not sure G will be able to equal Pavel's back-to-back 97 point season though - 90 points will probably the limit for Giroux down the line, but I think their style of play will eventually be fairly similar.
I would love for Giroux to be widely comparable to Datsyuk in the long run. But as far as Datsyuk's production is concerned, do you think my point has validity? I mean with the depth of the Wings for nearly the whole time he's been there, it seems he hasn't gotten the amount of the points he's capable of because quite frankly, he hasn't needed to. Don't mean to like force my point on people, it's just something I feel has an impact on not just Giroux himself, but the overall depth impacts the stats of most of the Flyers. Not that it's a bad thing, but I just don't see a Flyer putting up the points that a star of similar skill level would put up for a less offensively deep team.

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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Most of giroux's goals will always come on breakaways because:

1.) His shot is very weak (its seems better this year)
2.) He has great speed and is able to get breakaways
3.) Because he is dangly as sin.

Giroux is a Playmaker and Dangler,
Very true. I'd say it's also a testament to his positioning and overall hockey sense as well.

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11-15-2010, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
He has the intuitive ability to keep the puck away from defenders while being able to deke a goalie, like one of the braekaways he had. He had the instinct to feel the defender and move the puck to his backhand before the d-man could reach around. It is not just his ability to score points but how well-rounded he is at this point in his career.
Yea, I know the goal you're talking about. It was against the Pens in the first game of the year, he faked out the goalie and the defenseman behind him.

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11-15-2010, 01:19 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by hof2120 View Post
I would love for Giroux to be widely comparable to Datsyuk in the long run. But as far as Datsyuk's production is concerned, do you think my point has validity? I mean with the depth of the Wings for nearly the whole time he's been there, it seems he hasn't gotten the amount of the points he's capable of because quite frankly, he hasn't needed to. Don't mean to like force my point on people, it's just something I feel has an impact on not just Giroux himself, but the overall depth impacts the stats of most of the Flyers. Not that it's a bad thing, but I just don't see a Flyer putting up the points that a star of similar skill level would put up for a less offensively deep team.



Very true. I'd say it's also a testament to his positioning and overall hockey sense as well.
To the depth argument, I don't think that necessarily has as huge an impact as people like to act like it does. I mean, even on deep teams the best players are still the best players, and if more people are scoring, there should still be a lot of points to go around. So usually you may have lower individual goal totals, but assists should pick up across the board as well.

I just don't know how much being on a deep scoring team is going to diminish individual successes if you're still getting good minutes...which Giroux certainly is (this season. Last year, playing time and line mates CERTAINLY hurt his production).

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11-15-2010, 01:21 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hof2120 View Post
I would love for Giroux to be widely comparable to Datsyuk in the long run. But as far as Datsyuk's production is concerned, do you think my point has validity? I mean with the depth of the Wings for nearly the whole time he's been there, it seems he hasn't gotten the amount of the points he's capable of because quite frankly, he hasn't needed to. Don't mean to like force my point on people, it's just something I feel has an impact on not just Giroux himself, but the overall depth impacts the stats of most of the Flyers. Not that it's a bad thing, but I just don't see a Flyer putting up the points that a star of similar skill level would put up for a less offensively deep team.



Very true. I'd say it's also a testament to his positioning and overall hockey sense as well.
I think the depth has certainly hurt his production in the past because he's been stuck behind some terrific proven players. Also, there is really no need for the Flyers to rely on Giroux the way the Pens rely on Crosby and Malkin - especially with Jordan Staal still out - so I think with Carter, Richards and Briere locked up long term, ice-time will always be somewhat of an issue, but it'll be a very small one - probably only a few minutes here or there.

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11-15-2010, 01:23 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
To the depth argument, I don't think that necessarily has as huge an impact as people like to act like it does. I mean, even on deep teams the best players are still the best players, and if more people are scoring, there should still be a lot of points to go around. So usually you may have lower individual goal totals, but assists should pick up across the board as well.

I just don't know how much being on a deep scoring team is going to diminish individual successes if you're still getting good minutes...which Giroux certainly is.
True,fair enough, I guess I've just been using that as an excuse with all my Pens fans friends.

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