I'll call this a personal epiphany on the topic for me.
A guy like Comrie or Satan is here to help the team win, as is every player on the team. To help the team win, each player has an area of the game they excel at, that is how they made it to the NHL. Some players play a type of game which it is easy to be considered making an impact every shift.
Lets take Adams. His game is hustle, hitting, and blocking shots. (being in position everyone should be accountable for. For Adams, making an impact is pretty simple and he can do this nearly every shift. Hitting or blocking shots are will driven and occur many times in a game. However, you could play Adams on the top line all year, he could lead the team in ice-time, and would have extremely few points. By maximizing this kind of player's ice time there is little upside, it's about using them in the right spot so the will to do the little things makes a big impact.
Now take Comrie. He does none of these little things (notably) on most shifts. What he can do is be a part of 2 plays that result in goals that would not be possible had Adams been playing in his place. However, the Penguins average just over 3 goals per game, and good scoring chances are fairly rare compared to the opportunity to take the body. Therefore, knowing there are fewer opportunities for Comrie to make an impact the thing a player of that mold needs is time. It is lightning in a bottle having Comrie get on the score sheet while playing 4th line minutes.
The key is if Comrie overall is hurting the team. If he played on the first line and they were minus 2 many nights in some way due to his lack of sandpaper, I would say sit him. He never got that chance, nor has he been a liability deserving of being scratched. But, it is fair to say that he is as effective a 4th liner as Adams is a 1st liner.
All in all, I don't think we will ever have a successful purely offensive player be successful in Pittsburgh under DB, unless he learns to handle them as first and second line players.
I'll call this a personal epiphany on the topic for me.
A guy like Comrie or Satan is here to help the team win, as is every player on the team. To help the team win, each player has an area of the game they excel at, that is how they made it to the NHL. Some players play a type of game which it is easy to be considered making an impact every shift.
Lets take Adams. His game is hustle, hitting, and blocking shots. (being in position everyone should be accountable for. For Adams, making an impact is pretty simple and he can do this nearly every shift. Hitting or blocking shots are will driven and occur many times in a game. However, you could play Adams on the top line all year, he could lead the team in ice-time, and would have extremely few points. By maximizing this kind of player's ice time there is little upside, it's about using them in the right spot so the will to do the little things makes a big impact.
Now take Comrie. He does none of these little things (notably) on most shifts. What he can do is be a part of 2 plays that result in goals that would not be possible had Adams been playing in his place. However, the Penguins average just over 3 goals per game, and good scoring chances are fairly rare compared to the opportunity to take the body. Therefore, knowing there are fewer opportunities for Comrie to make an impact the thing a player of that mold needs is time. It is lightning in a bottle having Comrie get on the score sheet while playing 4th line minutes.
The key is if Comrie overall is hurting the team. If he played on the first line and they were minus 2 many nights in some way due to his lack of sandpaper, I would say sit him. He never got that chance, nor has he been a liability deserving of being scratched. But, it is fair to say that he is as effective a 4th liner as Adams is a 1st liner.
All in all, I don't think we will ever have a successful purely offensive player be successful in Pittsburgh under DB, unless he learns to handle them as first and second line players.
Watch those first few games again. When he was with Letestu and Malkin, he couldn't even make a pass or take one in stride and he couldn't keep up with plays. At least the grinders can get to loose pucks, push plays ahead and maybe put in garbage. Comrie did nothing, and I'm talking about the skilled part of the game, with his time with Malkin or on the PP but cause turnover and get beat for pucks. Even 2 of his assists were mistakes.
If he was at least 1D like Sykora, I could see people making a case for him but he brings nothing to this team but a hot wife and she's not even doing ads for the Pens. At least put her ass to work.
Watch those first few games again. When he was with Letestu and Malkin, he couldn't even make a pass or take one in stride and he couldn't keep up with plays. At least the grinders can get to loose pucks, push plays ahead and maybe put in garbage. Comrie did nothing, and I'm talking about the skilled part of the game, with his time with Malkin or on the PP but cause turnover and get beat for pucks. Even 2 of his assists were mistakes.
If he was at least 1D like Sykora, I could see people making a case for him but he brings nothing to this team but a hot wife and she's not even doing ads for the Pens. At least put her ass to work.
I would agree his sample was crappy, but also small with limited ice time and had more juggling than ringling bro's barnum and bylsma circus.
On the other hand, Duff needs to get to her game. We are on the same page there.
I would welcome Satan. I know he didnt play well with us last time in the regular season but he did play well for us in the playoffs. And he played well in the playoffs for Boston last year
He played well for Boston last year, in a FAR different system. It's a passive system. We play a far harder system for skilled players. So no, not a good fit at all is Satan, part deux.
Satan, Comrie or the current quartet of Kunitz, Dupuis, Cooke and Asham. That is what our top-six winger situation has come down to.
He played well for Boston last year, in a FAR different system. It's a passive system. We play a far harder system for skilled players. So no, not a good fit at all is Satan, part deux.
Satan, Comrie or the current quartet of Kunitz, Dupuis, Cooke and Asham. That is what our top-six winger situation has come down to.
If that doesn't make you ill, nothing will.
I'm not sure about that. The Pens are playing a team today that starts Erik Christiansen as their top center. Ten years ago, the Pens' own #1 defenseman was Dick Tarnstrom. Think of those things make me ill.
You're just talking about wingers. Not nearly as big a deal.
Yup, I'm tired of this "how he handles players" garbage
Name one guy that excelled before he came here and DB ran him out of town...
...or name one guy who's LEFT and excelled.
I don't get what's so hard to understand. When a one dimensional player can no longer excel in that one dimension, what more do you want to see?
I'm with you.
It's not like we haven't done this before .... when Sykora wasn't finishing, what happened to him?
Satan?
Feds?
How is Comrie any different? He looked great in preseason and in the time he had with Malkin in the regular season, acted like he totally forgot that and now Bylsma, in my mind, is doing the right thing by scratching him instead of forcing him onto the fourth line, where he wouldn't be effective at all.
To me, the only reason he hasn't been waived is because of the cap .... Gradi makes more and would help more in the top six.
And who are these top six wingers just sitting out there that Shero can get? I would be against Satan, but it's not like there is this bushel of T6 guys just waiting for a job or something ....
It's not like we haven't done this before .... when Sykora wasn't finishing, what happened to him?
Satan?
Feds?
How is Comrie any different? He looked great in preseason and in the time he had with Malkin in the regular season, acted like he totally forgot that and now Bylsma, in my mind, is doing the right thing by scratching him instead of forcing him onto the fourth line, where he wouldn't be effective at all.
To me, the only reason he hasn't been waived is because of the cap .... Gradi makes more and would help more in the top six.
And who are these top six wingers just sitting out there that Shero can get? I would be against Satan, but it's not like there is this bushel of T6 guys just waiting for a job or something ....
Forget about who we can go after, because there's practically nobody. It's this prevailing sentiment that DB doesn't want skilled players - and to boot - doesn't know how to use them that makes me nutty. It's more piling on and loud noise for nothing.
You're already nutty if you don't think Bylsma overvalues unskilled grinders.
"Overvalue" assumes we have some semblance of top six skill on this team that is being cast aside because they don't remind Bylsma of himself. THAT is nutty.
Mike ****ing Comrie. That's who's being undervalued? A guy who didn't have a job until two weeks before camp (for a reason) is everyone's best argument. If that doesn't make my point, I don't know what does.
I think Comrie, and Tangradi in his time here, (plus some others... Poni for example) could have been used better, but of course I agree that the options for top 6 wingers have been far from ideal. I didn't mean to call you out personally. I just think that Bylsma has consistently shown a bias towards "grinders" (and also veterans) over "skill" players, even with the caveat that we haven't had many skilled wingers.
Well, Shero's giving DB plenty of marginal players to coach. I can't really get on DB for not wanting to play guys that don't care and don't win battles. At least you get an honest effort and some won battles from guys like Adams etc. Guys like Comrie don't win battles. Guys like that are also worthless if they're not scoring and he hasn't been scoring despite getting significant PP time etc. Can't blame DB for that.
Floaters just don't fit in with this team. The only thing that would probably work is to find a scoring winger that also wins a lot of battles in other areas and those aren't easy to find. A lot of the good teams have them, but we lack the cap space and probably the assets to get one of those guys.
I think Comrie, and Tangradi in his time here, (plus some others... Poni for example) could have been used better, but of course I agree that the options for top 6 wingers have been far from ideal. I didn't mean to call you out personally. I just think that Bylsma has consistently shown a bias towards "grinders" (and also veterans) over "skill" players, even with the caveat that we haven't had many skilled wingers.
The problem with fan evaluations here is, anyone who's not a grinder is automatically labeled a "skill" player, when they're anything but.
Sykora basically got put out to pasture by a Minnesota team that couldn't score goals
Poni has 4 points with L.A.
Satan's gone two seasons now without a contract come training camp.
Comrie: 'nuff said.
If Bobby Ryan, 2nd pick after Crosby can spend a couple of years in the minors honing his skill, Eric Tangradi can do the same. That kid showed nothing special during his brief time here, and isn't exactly tearing up the AHL - and his WBS coach chewed him out the other day for being lazy at practice.
If as a scorer - you're not scoring, you're useless when you offer nothing else. I'd have bias too.
I don't think having a "floater" winger would be all that terrible, if he was actually good enough at the rest of the game to make it worth it.
What I always revert back to is the days of Petr Sykora. Yes, he could score goals, but I got just as frustrated with him as frustrated as I get with Dupuis, just for different reasons. When Sykora wasn't scoring he was useless, and though Dupuis is a good all around player, the amount of chances he flubs are very high, which is also particularly hard to watch.
You aren't going to get the best of both worlds though, unless you want to pay for a Zach Parise, or someone of that stature, or you develop your own guy. That's just the world we live in.
I agree with most of that. I think Poni should have been used more on the power play. For Tangradi, I think he maybe could have been used in offensive situations a little more, but he did play his way out of here. I think they were both better options than the players that Bylsma chose to use instead.
What I always revert back to is the days of Petr Sykora. Yes, he could score goals, but I got just as frustrated with him as frustrated as I get with Dupuis, just for different reasons. When Sykora wasn't scoring he was useless, and though Dupuis is a good all around player, the amount of chances he flubs are very high, which is also particularly hard to watch.
You aren't going to get the best of both worlds though, unless you want to pay for a Zach Parise, or someone of that stature, or you develop your own guy. That's just the world we live in.
Dupuis is the perfect example of what's wrong with the supposed "skill" guys we pick up, and why guys like him SHOULD get priority of the Comries and Satans of the world.
Dupuis drives me nuts for the same reasons he drives the others crazy, but I think it gets lost on people how getting into position to take those passes and the opportunities he creates for himself are skills themselves.
He's fast, he's good along the boards, he's first on the puck and he works his ass off on every shift which puts him into favorable spots to score (even though he misses more than he should) Add to that what a pain in the ass he is on the backcheck and how good he is in the d-zone, he's 10 times the player Comrie is.
How are Comrie's opportunities going to come when A) He can't skate B) He can't retrieve C) He can't forecheck? People can't just throw out a vague term like "hands" and think that's the answer. Unless you're a pure SHOOTER like a Semin where you can afford to be a lazy floater and still score 40 goals a year, a Mike Comrie has no value on ANY roster, much less ours.
Dupuis is the perfect example of what's wrong with the supposed "skill" guys we pick up, and why guys like him SHOULD get priority of the Comries and Satans of the world.
Dupuis drives me nuts for the same reasons he drives the others crazy, but I think it gets lost on people how getting into position to take those passes and the opportunities he creates for himself are skills themselves.
He's fast, he's good along the boards, he's first on the puck and he works his ass off on every shift which puts him into favorable spots to score (even though he misses more than he should) Add to that what a pain in the ass he is on the backcheck and how good he is in the d-zone, he's 10 times the player Comrie is.
How are Comrie's opportunities going to come when A) He can't skate B) He can't retrieve C) He can't forecheck? People can't just throw out a vague term like "hands" and think that's the answer. Unless you're a pure SHOOTER like a Semin where you can afford to be a lazy floater and still score 40 goals a year, a Mike Comrie has no value on ANY roster, much less ours.
The problem with guys we are utilizing in the top 6 like Kunitz and Dupuis. Is they are both 3rd wheels. When they are used correctly they are most effective. And that is when they are not on the same line.
Now... Take it that Kunitz is a legit 3rd wheel in the top 6, and Dupuis is a fringe 2nd liner ideal 3rd liner, but this description still holds water with him when you take that into account when both describe Kunitz and Dupuis together.
Assume we had both Kunitz and Dupuis being their ideal role, that of the "3rd wheel", and we had people filling the role of goal scorer on their opposite wing. This would be a very dangerous top 6.
Kunitz - Crosby - Scorer
Scorer - Malkin - Dupuis
I know Dupuis and Malkin never seem to play well together, I am just using that roster placement as a rudimentary example. Even though I cringe at the thought of TK in the top 6, he could probably be counted into this "3rd wheel" mold if there was someone complimenting him on the opposite side.
Basically my point is I would be extremely happy this coming off season if we could grab up at least one 30+ goal scorer that does is CONSISTENTLY, not a reclamation project, or aging cup chaser. Get a guy for a few years that can and has put up that bench mark consistently. Because then with one of these 3rd wheel types I just described, regardless of what line (L1 or L2) that player was put on it would push everyone on the line into their ideal roles.
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Kunitz and Dupes would be best on different lines in an ideal situation, I agree based on their strengths. Funny that the past few games (and i may be crazy) it's almost as if there is some chemistry between them. I noticed them entering the zone with speed, getting low hard shots on net, and then having better chances to win battles down low and cycle. Kunitz has looked about as good as I can remember for the past few games as a scoring gritty player.
But this line (despite the Sid Geno situations) has been getting regular shifts.
All that to say, I don't think early in the year other lines got enough of an adjustment period to form chemistry and play to their strengths. Its so strange to me that we hardly ever just roll 1-2-3 / 1-2-3-4 / 1-2-3 these days. I think it's fair to say lack of chemistry and familiarity hurts all lines in hockey (which are best as cohesive units), but hurts "production" players more than grinders.
Perhaps this is the missing link. Bylsma having not had alot of regular or guaranteed ice time doesn't understand the benefit of line chemistry and shift regularity. Or (and rather), he understands the idea but just doesn't believe in or value it.
Tonight against the rangers we play a line of Anisimov, Dubi, and Callahan. This is a line thriving on chemistry (as admitted by the players) and hopefully it's something we come to know on the pens.
The way we juggle and use players now leads to "live and die" by the individual performance of Sid and Geno most nights. It's funny, I admit that is not the worst situation in the world but think we would be better off with more regular shifts. And if we do get a better "skilled" option, they need regular time for a few weeks. Not a few shifts after which they get demoted baring tally.
The problem with guys we are utilizing in the top 6 like Kunitz and Dupuis. Is they are both 3rd wheels. When they are used correctly they are most effective. And that is when they are not on the same line.
Now... Take it that Kunitz is a legit 3rd wheel in the top 6, and Dupuis is a fringe 2nd liner ideal 3rd liner, but this description still holds water with him when you take that into account when both describe Kunitz and Dupuis together.
Assume we had both Kunitz and Dupuis being their ideal role, that of the "3rd wheel", and we had people filling the role of goal scorer on their opposite wing. This would be a very dangerous top 6.
Kunitz - Crosby - Scorer
Scorer - Malkin - Dupuis
I know Dupuis and Malkin never seem to play well together, I am just using that roster placement as a rudimentary example. Even though I cringe at the thought of TK in the top 6, he could probably be counted into this "3rd wheel" mold if there was someone complimenting him on the opposite side.
Basically my point is I would be extremely happy this coming off season if we could grab up at least one 30+ goal scorer that does is CONSISTENTLY, not a reclamation project, or aging cup chaser. Get a guy for a few years that can and has put up that bench mark consistently. Because then with one of these 3rd wheel types I just described, regardless of what line (L1 or L2) that player was put on it would push everyone on the line into their ideal roles.
It was the same thing with Guerin in a way. You can have a Kunitz on a first line as long as Guerin isn't on the other side - and vice-versa. Same thing with Kunitz and Dupuis - two perfect third wheels on a first or second line as long as you have a legit scorer on the wing.
But this is what we have. This is all we have, but people keep blasting the coach as if we have a ton of options to throw out there in their place, which is also why I love when I hear we should "stop playing a grinding style!!!".
??????
Yup, let's have these knuckleheads trying 3 passes through the neutral zone and see how many go back the other way
Dupuis is the perfect example of what's wrong with the supposed "skill" guys we pick up, and why guys like him SHOULD get priority of the Comries and Satans of the world.
Dupuis drives me nuts for the same reasons he drives the others crazy, but I think it gets lost on people how getting into position to take those passes and the opportunities he creates for himself are skills themselves.
He's fast, he's good along the boards, he's first on the puck and he works his ass off on every shift which puts him into favorable spots to score (even though he misses more than he should) Add to that what a pain in the ass he is on the backcheck and how good he is in the d-zone, he's 10 times the player Comrie is.
How are Comrie's opportunities going to come when A) He can't skate B) He can't retrieve C) He can't forecheck? People can't just throw out a vague term like "hands" and think that's the answer. Unless you're a pure SHOOTER like a Semin where you can afford to be a lazy floater and still score 40 goals a year, a Mike Comrie has no value on ANY roster, much less ours.
Yeah, I mean, Dupuis has good hockey sense and he knows where to go. That's fantastic, but you win games on scoring goals, and the guy just doesn't have the natural ability to get it done at the level that you need your top 6'er to perform.
Though I think your assessment of Comrie is extreme, I agree with the feel of it. I have said before when comparing hockey players, I will take the better hockey player over the better scorer any day of the week. Hockey is played in every single zone and you want the guys out there who are most effective in all 3. That being said, I can see why someone would want Comrie over Dupuis in a top 6 role.
Comrie has been pretty useless, but if we were going to have to have either Comrie or Dupuis put into a position to be offensive, I'd pick Comrie every time. He just has something that Dupuis doesn't, and something that is sorely lacking. What we are doing to Dupuis right now is the equivalent of wringing out a wet dish rag. There is absolutely nothing else we can squeeze out of him. 20 goals is without question his max, IMO, where as Comrie has proven he can put up better numbers, albeit, not recently.
I know this post has a real contradictory vibe, but yeah...
Dupuis actually can score to some extent. He'll probably score 20 if he stays with Sid all year. The main thing that he can't do is dictate the play in any way, shape or form. He has no offensive consience with the puck on his stick. The only thing he can do effectively with the puck is skate as fast as he can with it and shoot it on net.
