HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Any love for Holmgren now?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-16-2010, 12:31 PM
  #301
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Klotz, Garrett.
Nope, when the GM picks the son of the President of the corporation that owns the Flyers it is a sad day in Flyerland. It has been known to have a country club type relationship with its players and extended family, this is to the nth degree IMO.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:32 PM
  #302
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Seems that way from what I've been reading...
Read more.

The "Holmgren never gets any credit" mantra of apologists is a pure paper tiger argument. Everyone loves the Coburn move... I really liked the Pronger move, though I disliked the cost (which was in part because of the idiotic Lupul contract).

Quote:
Yeah the players could have developed on their own, but its far too speculative to really say that. Rick Nash has done a good job and it certainly isn't impossible for players to develop with no one around them, but be realistic. What would you do as a GM? Ok I have these young core guys with great potential, lets just save our money and hope they can produce and progress on our own. Or perhaps, Ok I have these young core guys with great potential, let's surround them with the best possible players we can. Choice is pretty obvious.
Yes, it is... and, as noted, I'm not in the habit of celebrating base level job performance.

Quote:
As to the first part I agree. Far too speculative. But he made certain moves, and those moves worked out. Don't say he had it easy because he didn't. He had to choose. He had to convince guys to come here. He had to pick between a number of players. It wasn't ok Briere wants to come here and he is the best center in the world and he will fit in this system. It was ok, we gotta offer the right money (which I admit is probably more than he is worth, but it got him here and the team is doing fine with his contract there), we gotta pick the right player, and we gotta hope he signs.
Again, he had THREE choices.

1) Drury, who isn't really a top line center.

2) Briere

3) Gomez

He picked Briere and threw a MASSIVE contract at him. It was pretty *ing easy. Rangers (inexplicably) picked Drury and Gomez, and threw even bigger contracts at them.

Signing free agents ain't that difficult... especially anyone in the know was aware that the Flyers had a lot of good young players on the team. Briere also signed after Timonen and Hartnell.

Quote:
Give me a break man. Fans pretty much get mad at every trade that is a 100% instant home run. This is of course operating under the assumption that every fan is smarter than the GM. Do you really think Homer was sitting alone in a room going ok, this guy isn't that good, but lets trade our first rounder for him anyway. Or do you think it was more the Flyers brass saying ok, we don't like this draft class this season, we need a young puck mover, Eminger is available, he's right handed, he has potential, and so forth, let's do it. You said it yourself he is a great talent evaluater. Could it be possible that he saw something in Eminger that he didn't see in the guys in the draft class? Now, I don't know exactly how it works, but I assume there were people on the staff agreeing with him and backing this decision and it wasn't just a quick lets get this guy who isn't that good call. It wasn't a great trade, but there have been far worse.
Dude... Eminger sucked. Everyone -- including Washington, where he had been a healthy scratch at times -- knew he sucked. He simply wasn't worth anything remotely close to a 1st rd pick.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=2412...topRelated_nhl

Quote:
Eminger has spent five season in the NHL, all with Washington, and has posted six goals and 37 assists in 212 games. He only appeared in 20 games last season and was a healthy scratch for many of the contests.
1st. Rd. Pick.

I mean, my God that is a train wreck into a children's hospital of a trade.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:32 PM
  #303
Flyskippy
Registered User
 
Flyskippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Audubon, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
add in shooters great work in hartford as well.
Pfft. Coaching is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Flyskippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:35 PM
  #304
Flyskippy
Registered User
 
Flyskippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Audubon, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yeah, the Clarke haters have big time holes in their argument... he certainly had his flaws, but he had consistent success in three different organizations with very different situations.

He built the setup in Minnesota that went on to win the Cup in Dallas.

He built an expansion franchise into a team that would eventually reach the Cup Finals (through us).

And he had incredibly consistent success here in Philly.

I also don't really prescribe to using the playoffs as a primary justification of a management group... there's just too much dumb luck and randomness that goes into advancing in the playoffs. You can literally make every right move and still get F'd come playoff time.
Do tell.


Flyskippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:36 PM
  #305
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
The one thing I can't rip about Holmgren is that he does care for this team ..maybe sometimes too hard and his fealty to players sometimes doesn't make for good business decisions. However, I still think he is pretty bad with the cap and for every good trade he makes he makes 2 boneheaded moves it seems. He also can't seem to think long term enough. He has kind of a one track mind and shows somewhat of a lack to think a few steps ahead. What saves him is that he always pulls out a get out of jail free card like with Leighton last year in the reg season, Leino in the playoffs and Bob this year. You can't knock him and his scouts for judging young talent that is for sure..
Also Homer being a recovering alcoholic he is big on giving guys second chances, sometimes to a fault.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:40 PM
  #306
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Nope, when the GM picks the son of the President of the corporation that owns the Flyers it is a sad day in Flyerland. It has been known to have a country club type relationship with its players and extended family, this is to the nth degree IMO.
6th round nepotism doesn't trump the single worst 3rd RD pick in the history of the sport. There were only 65 better draft eligible players in the entire world? Really?

Luuko was drafted 179th and was actually considered to be a legit late 6th or 7th RD pick anyway.

Klotz would have never been drafted.

Now, neither of them will ever amount to anything but the Klotz pick is absolutely inexcusable. It's at least possible to defend the Luukko pick.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:42 PM
  #307
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,369
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Read more.

The "Holmgren never gets any credit" mantra of apologists is a pure paper tiger argument. Everyone loves the Coburn move... I really liked the Pronger move, though I disliked the cost (which was in part because of the idiotic Lupul contract).
I'm not saying everyone hates every move he has ever done, just that when the topic of Homer comes up, it's always bashing and rarely praising. Hence, this topic was started.



Quote:
Yes, it is... and, as noted, I'm not in the habit of celebrating base level job performance.
It isn't base level job performance. You still have to pick and choose who is coming in to get the max out of your team. Anyone can close their eyes and pick players and hope for the best. Homer picked guys, and it works. That is really all you can hope for from a GM. Not sure really what you would have liked him to do.


Quote:
Again, he had THREE choices.

1) Drury, who isn't really a top line center.

2) Briere

3) Gomez

He picked Briere and threw a MASSIVE contract at him. It was pretty *ing easy. Rangers (inexplicably) picked Drury and Gomez, and threw even bigger contracts at them.

Signing free agents ain't that difficult... especially anyone in the know was aware that the Flyers had a lot of good young players on the team. Briere also signed after Timonen and Hartnell.
Those weren't his only three options. He could have made trades. he could have signed multiple lesser players. He could have signed multiple of those guys. He chose Briere, and yeah he threw money at him, but he was coming off a damn good season and the team needed something to spark it. If signing FAs isn't that difficult, then why do certain teams sign players that don't work out and have a hard time getting players to come there? You have to offer the right money, choose the right players, and have the right pieces on your team. Yeah, Homer had some young players and some money, but he still had to make the right moves, which he did. I guess if you want to say that any moron could have signed Briere and Timonen, you could make that argument, but the fact remains that other teams didn't sign them when they could have. So yeah I guess you are right. Signing free agents is easy and anyone could do it. That is why every GM only makes good signings. All the time.



Quote:
Dude... Eminger sucked. Everyone -- including Washington, where he had been a healthy scratch at times -- knew he sucked. He simply wasn't worth anything remotely close to a 1st rd pick.
Perhaps that's the case. To be honest with you, when the trade was made, I wasn't too stoked on it and didn't really know who Eminger was. But you gotta trust the GM because he is the GM and he has a lot of people working with him who know a lot about hockey. Just because I don't know how good a guy is or what his potential is, doesn't mean the GM doesn't. I know you probably watch and play a lot of hockey, but I would say 99% of the time I would trust an NHL GM over you, even if that GM has made mistakes in the past. I've said it wasn't a good trade. People make mistakes. All the time. But it wasn't some epic failure that everyone saw coming. It was a former first rounder who was a 25 y/o right handed puck moving defenseman with potential (which, from my accounts, doesn't come around too often) and a third round pick, for a first round pick. That doesn't really seem all that shocking to me. Had it panned out, everyone would be saying what a great move it was. But it didn't, so he is a fool.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:42 PM
  #308
jb**
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Planet Lovetron
Country: Italy
Posts: 8,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post
Pfft. Coaching is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
he was gm at 1 point as well i recall

jb** is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 12:59 PM
  #309
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not saying everyone hates every move he has ever done, just that when the topic of Homer comes up, it's always bashing and rarely praising. Hence, this topic was started.
You go into any thread analyzing a specific move and you'll see a variety of opinion.

Quote:
It isn't base level job performance. You still have to pick and choose who is coming in to get the max out of your team. Anyone can close their eyes and pick players and hope for the best. Homer picked guys, and it works. That is really all you can hope for from a GM. Not sure really what you would have liked him to do.
Ah, you can hope your GM minimizes mistakes.

Dale Tallon picked guys and it worked... and he was fired, with cause.

Quote:
Those weren't his only three options. He could have made trades. he could have signed multiple lesser players. He could have signed multiple of those guys. He chose Briere, and yeah he threw money at him, but he was coming off a damn good season and the team needed something to spark it. If signing FAs isn't that difficult, then why do certain teams sign players that don't work out and have a hard time getting players to come there? You have to offer the right money, choose the right players, and have the right pieces on your team. Yeah, Homer had some young players and some money, but he still had to make the right moves, which he did. I guess if you want to say that any moron could have signed Briere and Timonen, you could make that argument, but the fact remains that other teams didn't sign them when they could have. So yeah I guess you are right. Signing free agents is easy and anyone could do it. That is why every GM only makes good signings. All the time.
Ah, yeah, similar to no. 1 D, no. 1 C don't move around a ton in traded either. If he was getting one, it was through free agency, not a trade. Moreover, that team certainly was not in a position to deal young assets for a veteran top center.

Flyers could outspend pretty much everyone (but the Rangers) that offseason... and they did. Don't make it out like it's some immensely complicated thing that those guys wound up here. Don't make it out like the Flyers haven't had a great deal of success in signing who they target over the years independent of Holmgren. Clarke certainly didn't have any problems getting guys to come here.

Quote:
Perhaps that's the case. To be honest with you, when the trade was made, I wasn't too stoked on it and didn't really know who Eminger was. But you gotta trust the GM because he is the GM and he has a lot of people working with him who know a lot about hockey. Just because I don't know how good a guy is or what his potential is, doesn't mean the GM doesn't. I know you probably watch and play a lot of hockey, but I would say 99% of the time I would trust an NHL GM over you, even if that GM has made mistakes in the past. I've said it wasn't a good trade. People make mistakes. All the time. But it wasn't some epic failure that everyone saw coming. It was a former first rounder who was a 25 y/o right handed puck moving defenseman with potential (which, from my accounts, doesn't come around too often) and a third round pick, for a first round pick. That doesn't really seem all that shocking to me. Had it panned out, everyone would be saying what a great move it was. But it didn't, so he is a fool.
Eminger was awful. Late 1st rd picks don't have a ton of expected value, but the Caps were dead on the money as far as Eminger not being that good. Holmgren *ed up something fierce, and then proceeded to compound it because our D was just terrible going into that season... thus the Alberts acquisition and then the Carle trade.

We only have two 1st rd picks in the organization from the last 7 years (Giroux and JVR). So, not only did the Eminger trade turn out to be brutal, it was part of a trend of Holmgren being incredibly loose in dealing picks and prospects (Sbisa and Downie).

That was still when Holmgren was in the honey moon phase, and before those types of deals became a pattern, though. He was riding high off the acquisition of Coburn, and had yet to prove that the salary cap was an extremely difficult thing for him to manage.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 01:04 PM
  #310
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But it wasn't some epic failure that everyone saw coming.
Maybe you didn't see it coming, but the majority of this board wondered just what the **** Homer was thinking on that one.

The move was so hideously and undeniably awful, that Homer in very short order turned around and "fixed" this problem by pissing away another asset (Downie) to swap Eminger for Matt Carle. Seriously, like right after we got Eminger. It was such a horrendous move that we didn't even wait to see if Steve would pan out, we just shipped him right back out the door.

Look, Homer has done some really good things, but when he does really, really stupid things, don't try and cover it up as "He's an NHL GM and they make mistakes and no one here saw that mistake coming". The majority of this board who pays any kind of close attention to this team knew immediately that it was a horrible move. It didn't take Homer long to ship out Eminger and prove the majority correct.

You want the people who bash Homer for bad moves to also praise him when things work out, and that's fine. I agree with that sentiment. But then don't sit here and try and defend his moronic moves when most knew they were clearly moronic moves when they were made.

Yea, we should all give Homer credit when he does good things, but we should also all be allowed to criticize his bad moves without people such as yourself making excuses for those bad moves. If you want everyone to be fair and equitable regarding Homer, then you yourself have to stop defending every move that gets criticized. Simple as that.

He's done some good things and he's done some bad things. He deserves praise and he deserves criticism. Fair is fair.

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 01:31 PM
  #311
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Maybe you didn't see it coming, but the majority of this board wondered just what the **** Homer was thinking on that one.

The move was so hideously and undeniably awful, that Homer in very short order turned around and "fixed" this problem by pissing away another asset (Downie) to swap Eminger for Matt Carle. Seriously, like right after we got Eminger. It was such a horrendous move that we didn't even wait to see if Steve would pan out, we just shipped him right back out the door.

Look, Homer has done some really good things, but when he does really, really stupid things, don't try and cover it up as "He's an NHL GM and they make mistakes and no one here saw that mistake coming". The majority of this board who pays any kind of close attention to this team knew immediately that it was a horrible move. It didn't take Homer long to ship out Eminger and prove the majority correct.

You want the people who bash Homer for bad moves to also praise him when things work out, and that's fine. I agree with that sentiment. But then don't sit here and try and defend his moronic moves when most knew they were clearly moronic moves when they were made.

Yea, we should all give Homer credit when he does good things, but we should also all be allowed to criticize his bad moves without people such as yourself making excuses for those bad moves. If you want everyone to be fair and equitable regarding Homer, then you yourself have to stop defending every move that gets criticized. Simple as that.

He's done some good things and he's done some bad things. He deserves praise and he deserves criticism. Fair is fair.
Just like:

- everyone (I use this loosely as there are always exceptions) knew the Jones contract was horrendous
- everyone knew Jones should have been waived earlier than he was
- everyone knew Jones shouldn't have been recalled
- everyone knew Shelley doesn't deserve 1.1 to play 4 minutes (when we aren't blowing someone out)
- everyone knew paying your 8th d-man 1.7 for the next three years is a bad idea

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 01:47 PM
  #312
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,369
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, yeah, similar to no. 1 D, no. 1 C don't move around a ton in traded either. If he was getting one, it was through free agency, not a trade. Moreover, that team certainly was not in a position to deal young assets for a veteran top center.

Flyers could outspend pretty much everyone (but the Rangers) that offseason... and they did. Don't make it out like it's some immensely complicated thing that those guys wound up here. Don't make it out like the Flyers haven't had a great deal of success in signing who they target over the years independent of Holmgren. Clarke certainly didn't have any problems getting guys to come here.
Is it that hard to give the guy some credit for good moves? The team was pretty much in disarray from the previous season and they needed to upgrade. They did. The team went to the conference finals. It's easy to say anyone could have done that, but I could say the same thing about any GM in the league in any situation. He made good moves. The team improved. End of story. He deserves credit for that regardless of how "easy" you think it was.



Quote:
Eminger was awful. Late 1st rd picks don't have a ton of expected value, but the Caps were dead on the money as far as Eminger not being that good. Holmgren *ed up something fierce, and then proceeded to compound it because our D was just terrible going into that season... thus the Alberts acquisition and then the Carle trade.

We only have two 1st rd picks in the organization from the last 7 years (Giroux and JVR). So, not only did the Eminger trade turn out to be brutal, it was part of a trend of Holmgren being incredibly loose in dealing picks and prospects (Sbisa and Downie).

That was still when Holmgren was in the honey moon phase, and before those types of deals became a pattern, though. He was riding high off the acquisition of Coburn, and had yet to prove that the salary cap was an extremely difficult thing for him to manage.
I have always been of the opinion that trading draft picks is ok for the most part because especially in hockey, they simply aren't that valuable compared to NHL players. In theory, first round picks make your team what it is down the line and they are immensely valuable. But that is in theory. In theory, Communism works. In practice, not so much. Now, I am not saying draft picks are worthless, but I am saying that I would trade a late first round pick for a young guy with potential already playing in the league pretty much every time, depending on the situation, that year's draft class, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Maybe you didn't see it coming, but the majority of this board wondered just what the **** Homer was thinking on that one.

The move was so hideously and undeniably awful, that Homer in very short order turned around and "fixed" this problem by pissing away another asset (Downie) to swap Eminger for Matt Carle. Seriously, like right after we got Eminger. It was such a horrendous move that we didn't even wait to see if Steve would pan out, we just shipped him right back out the door.

Look, Homer has done some really good things, but when he does really, really stupid things, don't try and cover it up as "He's an NHL GM and they make mistakes and no one here saw that mistake coming". The majority of this board who pays any kind of close attention to this team knew immediately that it was a horrible move. It didn't take Homer long to ship out Eminger and prove the majority correct.

You want the people who bash Homer for bad moves to also praise him when things work out, and that's fine. I agree with that sentiment. But then don't sit here and try and defend his moronic moves when most knew they were clearly moronic moves when they were made.

Yea, we should all give Homer credit when he does good things, but we should also all be allowed to criticize his bad moves without people such as yourself making excuses for those bad moves. If you want everyone to be fair and equitable regarding Homer, then you yourself have to stop defending every move that gets criticized. Simple as that.

He's done some good things and he's done some bad things. He deserves praise and he deserves criticism. Fair is fair.
That's great that the majority of the board saw it coming. For the most part, fans seem to question almost every move (see people complaining about the Carter contract), that doesn't make them right. And that's fine even if they are right and the GM is wrong. The bottom line I am saying that in a situation where a move is made, you gotta trust the GM until it pans out. Maybe it doesn't work, ok. But the guy is an NHL GM with scouts and other hockey people around. He knows more than us no matter how much we think he doesn't.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 01:55 PM
  #313
Larry44
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,087
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Plus they got the third in that trade too (which apparently has no value when the Flyers receive it, but when they trade it they are stupid).

Larry44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 02:08 PM
  #314
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's great that the majority of the board saw it coming. For the most part, fans seem to question almost every move (see people complaining about the Carter contract), that doesn't make them right. And that's fine even if they are right and the GM is wrong. The bottom line I am saying that in a situation where a move is made, you gotta trust the GM until it pans out. Maybe it doesn't work, ok. But the guy is an NHL GM with scouts and other hockey people around. He knows more than us no matter how much we think he doesn't.
Well, there's a difference between "trusting the GM" and hoping things will work out, and "questioning the GM" when you have doubts about how things will work out.

I'm not advocating bashing Homer for no reason, and I do believe some on this board sell him short, as far as the good things he does, but as paying customers (fans), its not only our right to question the GM, its our responsibility. Afterall, we're really the ones paying for that product on the ice.

Getting upset when people question the intelligence of the moves Homer makes when he makes them, is the equivalent of saying we shouldn't question, say, the President of the United States because, well, he's the president. That's just plain silly. Its our obligation to question things, as fans of the Flyers (and paying customers).

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 02:11 PM
  #315
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You clap as if the value of that 3rd round pick makes up for pissing away a 1st round pick and Steve Downie for Matt Carle.

This is the type of asset management that some of us question, and for good reason, and yet some of you applaud it. Blows my mind.

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 02:29 PM
  #316
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Just like:

- everyone (I use this loosely as there are always exceptions) knew the Jones contract was horrendous
- everyone knew Jones should have been waived earlier than he was
- everyone knew Jones shouldn't have been recalled
- everyone knew Shelley doesn't deserve 1.1 to play 4 minutes (when we aren't blowing someone out)
- everyone knew paying your 8th d-man 1.7 for the next three years is a bad idea
Yup. I think the majority of the folks on this board hated those moves at the time, and surely everyone can see why at this point.

What irritates me is that, when some of us criticize Homer, his supporters think we're just being a bunch of dicks and not giving him any credit. That's not the case with most of us. I think the majority of us will admit he's done a fair amount of good things as well, and the roster as a whole is very, very good. I give Homer credit for that because he deserves it. Winning is the bottomline.

But yea, this idea that as fans we shouldn't question our GM or call him out for bad moves is just backwards thinking. It's our responsibility to call out and question our GM (or leaders). I'm amazed at how many people don't get that.

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 02:49 PM
  #317
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Is it that hard to give the guy some credit for good moves? The team was pretty much in disarray from the previous season and they needed to upgrade. They did. The team went to the conference finals. It's easy to say anyone could have done that, but I could say the same thing about any GM in the league in any situation. He made good moves. The team improved. End of story. He deserves credit for that regardless of how "easy" you think it was.
He gets a lot of credit for the moves he made that spring. The moves that summer were bleeding obvious. He did make good moves... they were the obvious moves. Celebrating base level competence... great. Most GMs given the resources would have made that pitch. Isn't like Holmgren is the only guy that thought Timonen was a good player...

Quote:
I have always been of the opinion that trading draft picks is ok for the most part because especially in hockey, they simply aren't that valuable compared to NHL players. In theory, first round picks make your team what it is down the line and they are immensely valuable. But that is in theory. In theory, Communism works. In practice, not so much. Now, I am not saying draft picks are worthless, but I am saying that I would trade a late first round pick for a young guy with potential already playing in the league pretty much every time, depending on the situation, that year's draft class, etc.
Look at the really good teams in the NHL right... and try and tell me draft picks are worthless. Drafting your own talent and developing it is the name of the game under a salary cap.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 03:30 PM
  #318
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,369
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
You clap as if the value of that 3rd round pick makes up for pissing away a 1st round pick and Steve Downie for Matt Carle.

This is the type of asset management that some of us question, and for good reason, and yet some of you applaud it. Blows my mind.
I think he was clapping because of people's hypocrisy on here. The Flyers trade a draft pick, no matter what round, and people flip out saying how stupid they are. They get a draft pick, regardless of round, and no one bats an eye. I'm not saying a third rounder equals a first rounder, and I don't think this guy is either. It's just annoying when Homer trades a pick and everyone loses it. Then he gets one and everyone is like well yeah its ok whatever, but he still traded them away so he sucks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He gets a lot of credit for the moves he made that spring. The moves that summer were bleeding obvious. He did make good moves... they were the obvious moves. Celebrating base level competence... great. Most GMs given the resources would have made that pitch. Isn't like Holmgren is the only guy that thought Timonen was a good player...
Ok well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You call it base level performance, I call it turning a team around. I'm not changing your mind, and you're not changing mine. Since this isn't a factual determination, it is possible for reasonable minds to differ.

Quote:
Look at the really good teams in the NHL right... and try and tell me draft picks are worthless. Drafting your own talent and developing it is the name of the game under a salary cap.
I guess you didn't read the part of my post where I said that draft picks AREN'T worthless. What I said was NHL ready kids are more valuable than a draft pick. I will say that 9999999999 times in a row and it is very difficult to understand how you could refute that. Now, if you have like a top five pick or so, then I'd hold on to it. But if you have a late first round pick and you can get a kid in his low to mid 20s that is already playing in the NHL who still has potential (regardless of what you, as a fan, think) I'd take the kid with potential who is already in the NHL. There is absolutely no guarantee that any player, even a #1 pick will ever play in the NHL and certainly no guarantee that he will be of any importance.

Will John Carlson turn out to be better than Eminger? Probably. Is it a guarantee? Absolutely not. And if we are going to compare the two (which is what I assume we are essentially doing here because that is who the Caps took and likely who the Flyers would have taken) we have to compare them as what they were at the time. Not what they are now. Two years ago, Eminger was still a 24 or 25 year old kid with promise. He was a right handed puck moving defenseman. These are all very valuable assets. Who was John Carlson? A border line first round pick. He has turned out to be a good pick thus far for Washington, but at the time he was a solid defenseman playing in the USHL, not exactly the strongest hotbed of talent in the world. Not knocking Carlson or the USHL, just saying that wasn't like this kid was dominating somewhere in the CHL or playing against men in Europe like some players. He was just another kid with potential. Probably higher potential than Eminger, but Eminger was already in the NHL. This is where the hindsight argument comes into play. If the Flyers had the #1 pick and Carlson was this absolute home run stud defenseman, then ok yeah they made the wrong call. But the Flyers didn't see anything they wanted at the end of the first round, so they traded the pick for a guy that they thought had the potential to fill a need they couldn't through the draft. Didn't work out too well. But it wasn't some outrageous deal. And they got the third in return as well, which I know I don't value that much but everyone on here loves draft picks so much, yet it doesn't matter that they got on here.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 03:32 PM
  #319
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Yup. I think the majority of the folks on this board hated those moves at the time, and surely everyone can see why at this point.

What irritates me is that, when some of us criticize Homer, his supporters think we're just being a bunch of dicks and not giving him any credit. That's not the case with most of us. I think the majority of us will admit he's done a fair amount of good things as well, and the roster as a whole is very, very good. I give Homer credit for that because he deserves it. Winning is the bottomline.

But yea, this idea that as fans we shouldn't question our GM or call him out for bad moves is just backwards thinking. It's our responsibility to call out and question our GM (or leaders). I'm amazed at how many people don't get that.
Well said.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 03:37 PM
  #320
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
So, DrinkFightFlyers, I assume you think Brian Burke made the right call trading for Kessel?

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 03:40 PM
  #321
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think he was clapping because of people's hypocrisy on here. The Flyers trade a draft pick, no matter what round, and people flip out saying how stupid they are. They get a draft pick, regardless of round, and no one bats an eye. I'm not saying a third rounder equals a first rounder, and I don't think this guy is either. It's just annoying when Homer trades a pick and everyone loses it. Then he gets one and everyone is like well yeah its ok whatever, but he still traded them away so he sucks!
Yea, I understand where you're coming from here. I think sometimes some of us (including myself) are a bit too harsh on Homer.

I think sometimes it appears he's gettin' more criticism than praise because, simply put, it's his job to make good moves, and it's expected that he does his job. We shouldn't have to sit around holding hands and spitting out praise because our GM does his job, it should be an expectation.

When I was young (a long time ago), I'd get a gold star for gettin' an 'A' on a test. But yea, I caught alot more **** for gettin' an 'F', because I was expected to do well. It's just the way the world works.

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 03:53 PM
  #322
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,369
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, DrinkFightFlyers, I assume you think Brian Burke made the right call trading for Kessel?
I don't think it was the best trade in the world, for one thing because at least last year it was very likely that the Leafs would get a top two pick and there were two "home run" type prospects (and like I said in my other post(s), trading away top pick isn't a great idea). But I don't think it was some atrocious move that has ruined the Leafs forever, or even the foreseeable future. Phill Kessel is what 23 years old (younger when they made the trade), and he already scored 30 goals in the NHL. Not sure how you look at it, but I think a 30 goal scorer who is 23 (21 at the time of the trade I think), is more valuable then the potential of two 18 year olds who never played in the NHL. Again, obviously, Kessel may not pan out to be great and Seguin and whomever the B's get next year might be Hall of Famers. But the Leafs know what they have in Kessel. He is 23 and already has two 30 goals seasons and is well on his way to another one this year. The real problem with this deal, like I said, is that the Leafs pretty much knew they had a top pick and there were some serious prospects they could pick. That is a far cry from trading the 28th pick for a young kid and a third round pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Yea, I understand where you're coming from here. I think sometimes some of us (including myself) are a bit too harsh on Homer.

I think sometimes it appears he's gettin' more criticism than praise because, simply put, it's his job to make good moves, and it's expected that he does his job. We shouldn't have to sit around holding hands and spitting out praise because our GM does his job, it should be an expectation.

When I was young (a long time ago), I'd get a gold star for gettin' an 'A' on a test. But yea, I caught alot more **** for gettin' an 'F', because I was expected to do well. It's just the way the world works.
Yeah, I hear ya on that one. But I can't stand fans calling out coaches and GMs for everything "bad" that happens and giving them little to no credit when things go right (see John Stevens threads from last season).

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 04:03 PM
  #323
Shadow Flyer
Why So Serious?
 
Shadow Flyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Country: United States
Posts: 3,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah, I hear ya on that one. But I can't stand fans calling out coaches and GMs for everything "bad" that happens and giving them little to no credit when things go right (see John Stevens threads from last season).
That's fair. As I said, I've probably been too harsh on Homer at times while not acknowledging some of the better things he's done. I'm happy with the roster as a whole, even if I haven't always agreed with how he's put together that roster.

Either way, it sure is fun watching this team play right now. They're just dismantling the opposition at this time.

Shadow Flyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 04:10 PM
  #324
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,075
vCash: 500
In favour of Holmgren, one (of many) interesting point made in this thread was his use of the first received in the Forsberg deal to give right back in return for the rights to Timonen and Hartnell. I don't remember this being done with such regularity as before Holmgren did this. If Holmgren did indeed start this trend, then I him for it.

That whole Forsberg deal, to me, was one of Holmgren's better moments: he maximized the deadline-deal return for Forsberg, who was set to become a UFA. Then he used the 1st to land Timonen and Hartnell. Upshall and Parent, at that moment, had great upside, and the Flyers also received a 3rd round pick. The fact that Parent has all but fizzled under his potential shouldn't take away from his value as part of that deal.

The Brière deal is also noteworthy because, by all accounts, the Canadiens had an offer sheet with more dollars per year, but a shorter length. In other words, Holmgren was bidding against someone other than himself on Brière's services. Of the 3 biggest (figuratively speaking) centre FAs at the time, Brière was definitely the most coveted, and landing him was first and foremost an exclamation point that the Flyers would not remain at the bottom of the league. If this sounds like a backhanded compliment to Holmgren, I think he handled the negotiations with Brière well in attracting him to the team that finished dead last the previous season.

There, that wasn't so bad saying something nice about Paul Holmgren.

BernieParent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-16-2010, 04:13 PM
  #325
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
In favour of Holmgren, one (of many) interesting point made in this thread was his use of the first received in the Forsberg deal to give right back in return for the rights to Timonen and Hartnell. I don't remember this being done with such regularity as before Holmgren did this. If Holmgren did indeed start this trend, then I him for it.

That whole Forsberg deal, to me, was one of Holmgren's better moments: he maximized the deadline-deal return for Forsberg, who was set to become a UFA. Then he used the 1st to land Timonen and Hartnell. Upshall and Parent, at that moment, had great upside, and the Flyers also received a 3rd round pick. The fact that Parent has all but fizzled under his potential shouldn't take away from his value as part of that deal.

The Brière deal is also noteworthy because, by all accounts, the Canadiens had an offer sheet with more dollars per year, but a shorter length. In other words, Holmgren was bidding against someone other than himself on Brière's services. Of the 3 biggest (figuratively speaking) centre FAs at the time, Brière was definitely the most coveted, and landing him was first and foremost an exclamation point that the Flyers would not remain at the bottom of the league. If this sounds like a backhanded compliment to Holmgren, I think he handled the negotiations with Brière well in attracting him to the team that finished dead last the previous season.

There, that wasn't so bad saying something nice about Paul Holmgren.
Taxes are a LOT higher in Montreal. The value of that contract is higher here in Philly than the one Montreal offered.

LA was the other team that made a serious bid, as I recall.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:24 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.