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Gagne's Vision Problems

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Old
11-16-2010, 10:52 AM
  #26
Jester
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
yeah, i'm not convinced Homer or the other GMs knew he was going to hit the boards weird and be sidelined forever.
I think the decision to make a move with Gagne made a great deal of sense -- given that there was no chance you were going to re-sign him -- but the Walker return still irritates me, because the real value was getting money off the cap NEXT year, not adding to it.

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11-16-2010, 04:56 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think the decision to make a move with Gagne made a great deal of sense -- given that there was no chance you were going to re-sign him -- but the Walker return still irritates me, because the real value was getting money off the cap NEXT year, not adding to it.
That is the confusing part... I agree. Unless Homer has plans that include Walker replacing a higher capped player down the line, it just makes no sense whatsoever.

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11-16-2010, 05:16 PM
  #28
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That is the confusing part... I agree. Unless Homer has plans that include Walker replacing a higher capped player down the line, it just makes no sense whatsoever.
Well, I assume that we will lose two of our top 6 next year. O'Donnell to retirement, and one of Carle, Mez, and Coburn to trade. However, I also wanted them to work at developing Bartulis this year towards being a third pairing guy... but that's just me. D is also the one position where we have a few guys with legit potential on the Phantoms.

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11-16-2010, 05:40 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, I assume that we will lose two of our top 6 next year. O'Donnell to retirement, and one of Carle, Mez, and Coburn to trade. However, I also wanted them to work at developing Bartulis this year towards being a third pairing guy... but that's just me. D is also the one position where we have a few guys with legit potential on the Phantoms.
I was merely drawing at straws in trying to find rhyme or reason in the Walker deal... I agree that D is probably the deepest position in the System by far and with the logjam ahead of them, someone or someones will have to be moved if they are to be eased in over the next couple seasons.

That said, what other reason would Homer have to take on an extra (depth) D-man... especially one that eats well into the Cap savings that was obtained in moving Gagne? We know that Homer has strongly determined that depth at D is the way to the Cup -- along with being solid down the middle -- and Walker is more experienced and probably a better short-term choice for depth and insurance for injury or player collapse on the back-line... But what of the Phantoms talent?

Maybe he feels that THIS is THE season and this will be a force in it... and the Phantom D-men are the future and he plans on developing them in the A...while Walker patrols the Press Box and stays ready to save the day if needed.

Please don't take that as my disagreeing with you, because I do not... Take it merely as a rationalization of an otherwise befuddling move.

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11-16-2010, 06:06 PM
  #30
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The problem, though, is that they are basically Fing Bartulis. Dude needs to be playing games, it's tremendously unfair of them to put him in this spot at this stage in his career. He's played 3 games with us, and a handful on that loan.... just wrong.

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11-17-2010, 12:55 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The problem, though, is that they are basically Fing Bartulis. Dude needs to be playing games, it's tremendously unfair of them to put him in this spot at this stage in his career. He's played 3 games with us, and a handful on that loan.... just wrong.
I can't argue with that... In fact, IMO he would be better served logging minutes in the A. But if they waived him down and he made it through, I'd bet the farm that he would never be able to be recalled without being claimed at half the salary and Cap hit... screwing the Flyers Cap. Thus he would be buried in Adirondack... I can't see Homer again trying to sneak a D-man up after being burned prior.

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11-17-2010, 01:30 AM
  #32
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still rather have IR gagne than scratched walker

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11-17-2010, 01:55 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
still rather have IR gagne than scratched walker
... And even worse we have an IR Walker.

But to be honest Walker is a $1.7M Cap drain rather than Gagne's $5.25M one... On the other hand the three years of Walker equals $5.1M which is only $0.15M saved over the three years, But the $3,55M saved this year pays Zherdev and Leights exactly... So Gagne turned into three roster players. Gagne on IR would have meant Homer would have had to forgo gambling on Z ($2M) and possibly not afford Bob ($1.75M incl bonuses, IIRC) when Leights comes off LTIR.

The feel good keeping Gagne sadly would have hurt the Flyers... That said, I know exactly what you mean, and my heart totally agrees.

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11-17-2010, 10:26 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The problem, though, is that they are basically Fing Bartulis. Dude needs to be playing games, it's tremendously unfair of them to put him in this spot at this stage in his career. He's played 3 games with us, and a handful on that loan.... just wrong.
You wrote exactly what I have been thinking about Bartulis.

He'll be a King before long, I guess.

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11-17-2010, 10:48 AM
  #35
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I think Walker was looked at a tough guy d man that can sometimes play the PK. Kinda like a much worse version of OD. But come playoff time Walker would have gotten the nod over Bartulis if there is an injury. And its not like Walker cant be waived in the off season. Flyers have enough money to stick him in the minors for 2 years unless someone wants him.

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11-17-2010, 01:15 PM
  #36
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SWEET RELIEF

While heeding Dr.Kelly's advice of rest and relaxation by toiling many hours on the couch watching TV, Simon happened to catch a local news segment on Scott Greenberg MD of the Magaziner Center for Wellness in Cherry Hill, NJ. Greenberg was discussing his specialty: prolotherapy.

A few days later, after consulting with Flyers athletic trainer Jim McCrossin, Simon was in Dr.Greenberg's office.

What is prolotherapy?

"A series of pinpointed shots that help heal nerve damage, spark the bodies immune system, regenerate damaged tissue and strengthen the joints. With prolotherapy, you get pinpoint therapy to the area that is damaged. You don't just get a blanket treatment. It is like getting surgery without getting cut open," according to the New Jersey-based doctor.

Dr. Greenberg, one of the leading prolotherapy specialists in the country, treated Gagne once a week in April and May with a series of 30-50 shots per session targeted to the joints in the neck, head and upper back. The shots combine two anesthetics with an inflammatory agent.

Gagne credits the treatments with allowing him to progress from chronic headaches to feeling OK to being cleared to play in time for 2008 training camp.

"After the first treatment, I saw the result right away. I think prolotherapy was a large factor in me being able to come back this year," said Gagne.
lol 30 - 50 shots a session, of course its like having surgery without getting cut open..... your just stabbed with the scalpel 30 - 50 times.

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11-17-2010, 01:22 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
... And even worse we have an IR Walker.

But to be honest Walker is a $1.7M Cap drain rather than Gagne's $5.25M one... On the other hand the three years of Walker equals $5.1M which is only $0.15M saved over the three years, But the $3,55M saved this year pays Zherdev and Leights exactly... So Gagne turned into three roster players. Gagne on IR would have meant Homer would have had to forgo gambling on Z ($2M) and possibly not afford Bob ($1.75M incl bonuses, IIRC) when Leights comes off LTIR.

The feel good keeping Gagne sadly would have hurt the Flyers... That said, I know exactly what you mean, and my heart totally agrees.
The argument begins and ends with the phrase "expiring contract" and that's why that trade was so horrific.

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11-17-2010, 01:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The problem, though, is that they are basically Fing Bartulis. Dude needs to be playing games, it's tremendously unfair of them to put him in this spot at this stage in his career. He's played 3 games with us, and a handful on that loan.... just wrong.
The Flyers are making a real effort to win the Cup this year, so they can't have any conscience about Oskars' development.

Bartulis' development might suffer from not playing, but if anyone gets hurt, he'll be back in. I'm sure he'll get some games in at some point.

They need him for depth in the season and the playoffs.

Depending how it all works out, he'll be #6 next year or, if not, he can be moved if Gus or the other Phantoms have caught up to him.

Making $600K for practicing with a legit contender and watching great vets is not the worst way to spend a season.

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11-17-2010, 02:29 PM
  #39
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The Flyers are making a real effort to win the Cup this year, so they can't have any conscience about Oskars' development.

Bartulis' development might suffer from not playing, but if anyone gets hurt, he'll be back in. I'm sure he'll get some games in at some point.

They need him for depth in the season and the playoffs.

Depending how it all works out, he'll be #6 next year or, if not, he can be moved if Gus or the other Phantoms have caught up to him.

Making $600K for practicing with a legit contender and watching great vets is not the worst way to spend a season.
Ah, it's pretty terrible if you're a fringe NHL'er that needs to be in games in order to develop into a real NHL'er.

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11-17-2010, 03:14 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, it's pretty terrible if you're a fringe NHL'er that needs to be in games in order to develop into a real NHL'er.
While it wont happen odonnel should sit for a few games as I donít think his play lately has been that good. It is a good spot to rest him while getting bartulis playing time. Your never going to find out what you truly have by having bart on the bench. He probably is only a bottom pairing guy but you never know what can happen. When is walker expected to be back and resume activities? Before the end of the year? Also I dont think they have put walker or ian on the long term injured list have they?

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11-17-2010, 03:25 PM
  #41
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While it wont happen odonnel should sit for a few games as I donít think his play lately has been that good. It is a good spot to rest him while getting bartulis playing time. Your never going to find out what you truly have by having bart on the bench. He probably is only a bottom pairing guy but you never know what can happen. When is walker expected to be back and resume activities? Before the end of the year? Also I dont think they have put walker or ian on the long term injured list have they?
I haven't been paying attention... you only need a guy on LTIR if you're actually going to take advantage of it, as it doesn't actually impact your season's cap... it's also retroactive. So if they suddenly needed a body and that cap space (and he wasn't on LTIR) they could make that move and bring someone up. But you don't bank LTIR space (like you can real cap space) so it's moot if you don't need it.

Bartulis... I really wanted him to start the year as our 6th and see what happened. If he developed, then you were set. If he continued to struggle, then you look to make a move for the 2nd half of the season and the playoff run.

Pretty hard to develop your own D when you don't give 'em space to breathe.

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11-17-2010, 03:27 PM
  #42
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While it wont happen odonnel should sit for a few games as I donít think his play lately has been that good.
I don't think it is possible to say anything else than that OD's play has been exactly as advertised. He's actually had a pretty underrated career. He's also a +12 right now and considering he's not exactly an offensive dynamo, that's pretty impressive.

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11-17-2010, 03:31 PM
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I don't think it is possible to say anything else than that OD's play has been exactly as advertised. He's actually had a pretty underrated career. He's also a +12 right now and considering he's not exactly an offensive dynamo, that's pretty impressive.
He has played well overall. The last few games he hasnít looked that good imo. Give him a rest. Not going to hurt much sitting him and will keep him more fresh down the line.

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11-17-2010, 03:43 PM
  #44
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I have Lasik from "lasik md", and am a full supporter. I also had to have both surgeries, for the two eyes. PRK and Lasik.

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11-17-2010, 04:01 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, it's pretty terrible if you're a fringe NHL'er that needs to be in games in order to develop into a real NHL'er.
When a player's needs were addressed before the team's, this doesn't occur... When the CBA dictates that players have to be waived up and down once they reach a point, GMs have to decide whether to play a player, move a player, or carry a player as depth -- gone are the days when a GM like Clarke would move lesser used players to teams they can play on and where they want to play even if it bites them in the ass come the postseason (Weinrich/Bundy) -- Either they carry Bart in the press box or they chance losing him on waivers down... if he clears, he is buried as he would never clear recall waivers... Homer has built a rock solid six defensemen, and real decent depth; that is his plan for winning the Cup... As terrible as it it, it is the way it is. I feel for Bart, but I'd rather have him than not in this sport where one hit could change the complexion of a roster real fast.

Another option is to trade either Bart or top six D-man for picks or depth players and rely on a young Phantom defender who can move up and down in a pinch... And come the playoffs we have painfully learned that veteran D-men far outweigh young ones.

As player friendly as the Flyers are, I imagine this is a tough situation for them.

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11-17-2010, 04:07 PM
  #46
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Ah, there were always rules concerning waiving players up and down... specifically so older players could find a spot in the NHL rather than be buried in the AHL on a deep team.

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11-17-2010, 04:17 PM
  #47
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Ah, there were always rules concerning waiving players up and down... specifically so older players could find a spot in the NHL rather than be buried in the AHL on a deep team.
There always were, but the window has become increasing shorter over the years. Years back young players such as Bart could gain more experience in the minors and be used when needed... rather than rot in the Press Box. I understand the reasoning for the waivers, I'm just pointing out how it ties GM's hands.

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11-17-2010, 04:27 PM
  #48
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There always were, but the window has become increasing shorter over the years. Years back young players such as Bart could gain more experience in the minors and be used when needed... rather than rot in the Press Box. I understand the reasoning for the waivers, I'm just pointing out how it ties GM's hands.
Doesn't tie GMs hands. Most GMs aren't spending $4M on a third pairing D...

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11-17-2010, 04:36 PM
  #49
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As much as I dont want to say this...

A 4th round pick right about now is more valuable than a 5 million dollar player with post-concussion issues.

Dammit I hate myself.

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11-17-2010, 04:55 PM
  #50
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Saying that doesn't degrade Gagne's memory. We made a good deal to move him on and he gets to spend a year in the sun earning $5m.

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