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One step close to a new arena in Quebec

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Old
11-18-2010, 11:02 AM
  #51
JETZZZ
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I dont mind if its publicly funded as long as the Nordiques plan on paying the money back in the long run. I mean, its not like an NHL team in Quebec City wont attract any fans or make money...

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11-18-2010, 11:23 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by kyne View Post
The Expos played out of Jarry Park when the Big O was built. The stadium was not built with a pro team in mind as would be the case for any new arena in Quebec City. It was part of the Olympic installations and, as such, was funded municipally, provincially and federally. If anything, RIO had to convince the Expos to play there since they were quite happy at Jarry Park.

Is Quebec City staging the Olympic Games in the near future? No.
An arena for pro hockey is more important than the Olympics to me. I would gladly pay more taxes to pay for an arena in Saskatoon than anything that has to do with the damn Olympics anywhere. Because you can use the arena for 50 years.

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11-18-2010, 11:27 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
First, I never said 21% was impressive. It's 2,3% a year and it's a fair growth considering it includes 2008 and 2009. I simply shows the city got richer. With inflation around 1%, the buying leverage of the population grew as well. It's a good indicator for the professionnal sport industry. Also, I never said the economy was booming. A boom would be the 90' in Calgary or the 80' in Japan. The situation is far from perfect and you are right saying we're short on work forces. But still, 5% unemployment rate still means that people living there are at work and get paid each week. Another good indicator for the profession sport industry.

Also if you want to compare Montreal vs Quebec city in economical terms, which by the way, as nothing to do with this argument since Montreal as nothing to do with the possibly or not of having a new arena and a hockey franchise in Quebec city, the GDP growth of Montreal since 2000 is 19,1%. Montréal population grew less than 10% since 2001. Quebec city grew about 7%. While it's less, it's still growing. I don't even know why we compare anyways; it really has nothing to do with anything about this topic.

Now, you're saying my argument is flawed. I consider my point a concept I feel we should respect more then an argument. But you can see it the way you want.

As for the multi functional complex concept, it is not a myth. It is based on facts. Winnipeg built his arena following the same concept and, though then don’t have a hockey team yet, they host an incredible number of concert and shows each year and the only reason is the Arena. I know a lot of people in the entertainment business in Québec city and they are all saying they lose many opportunities each year because nobody wants to perform in the old Colisé anymore. Again, not a myth

- hmm, I'm pretty sure inflation sits higher than 1%. It hovers more above 2% per year.

- I'm not comparing Mtl with Quebec. I'm saying the city is still bleeding people coupled with a shortage of workers, which is a huge factor on the low unemployment rate.

- your argument flawed because you factored in time to your equation. Tax revenues are spent periodically and relatively in proportion with where they come from. Basically, the tax generated by eastern canada a century ago was spent on eastern canada. Alberta has historically never depended on federal money and in that sense, has always lost more than it generated, regardless of its population size. Simply put, the taxes cumulated by Quebec a century ago do not sit in a magic tresor trunk in Ottawa.

- As for the multifonctionnal complex, I think it's been established that large venues prefer to have repeated dates in a very large city than travelling around. It makes sense economically for them. That might explain why Montreal is often skipped and Toronto is the only canadian date in a tour. The new complex might attract more venues, but to claim they would fill up the calendar...I have doubts. Can we get stats about Winnipeg success with their latest buiding?

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11-18-2010, 11:30 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by CarrePrisme View Post
The large majority of Quebec City's economy is already paid by taxpayers across the province of Quebec. Don't believe that myth that Quebec City has a growing private sector, as I explained at the end of this thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=797646&page=6

I think the fact that Quebec City's is already such a huge drain on tax payers money is what bothers people when they ask for an additional half a billion dollar for a brand new arena.
Yep, Quebec city is a government town, and government workers don't get fired (or even pay cuts!) even in bad recessions, unlike real workers. Let all the useless government workers with big fat paychecks to do useless work (OLF, Revenue Quebec duplicating the CRA, SAQ, etc.) who we already pay so much to for so little build their own arena in their own little pet city. Obviously they are doing quite well thanks to the taxpayers of Montreal and Alberta.

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11-18-2010, 11:49 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Yep, Quebec city is a government town, and government workers don't get fired (or even pay cuts!) even in bad recessions, unlike real workers. Let all the useless government workers with big fat paychecks to do useless work (OLF, Revenue Quebec duplicating the CRA, SAQ, etc.) who we already pay so much to for so little build their own arena in their own little pet city. Obviously they are doing quite well thanks to the taxpayers of Montreal and Alberta.
Is this Sarcasm ? I think you need to put at the end.

If not, then damn, I think you should get your facts straight. As I'm the first to ask for a reduction of the government spending, including the number of government imployees, Québec city's economy is not only based on government employees. The provincial government is the largest employer in the city, employing 27,900 people as of 2007 there is 800,000 living in the metropolitan region of Quebec city. Make that 60% of active population 480,000. That less the 6% of the total work force. What's your damn point ?

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11-18-2010, 12:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
Is this Sarcasm ? I think you need to put at the end.

If not, then damn, I think you should get your facts straight. As I'm the first to ask for a reduction of the government spending, including the number of government imployees, Québec city's economy is not only based on government employees. The provincial government is the largest employer in the city, employing 27,900 people as of 2007 there is 800,000 living in the metropolitan region of Quebec city. Make that 60% of active population 480,000. That less the 6% of the total work force. What's your damn point ?
You're deliberatly leaving out the thousands of DIRECT jobs related to the government jobs. I made that clear in the comment that I linked that a lot of government jobs have been replace by private firms but they remain on the govt payroll!!!

You're also forgetting that if you don't count the government jobs in one entity, the largest employer in the city is still the University of Laval and hospitals follow closely. Those are not accounted as civil servants job, but remain government jobs.

The large majority of the private sector is small businesses servicing all those government employees. Indirect jobs, basically.

There isn't that many large corporations in this city. A few insurance HQ's and a couple of biological businesses. Small branches of the video games industry and that's about it. Except for Desjardins in Levis, which is pretty big, Industrielle Alliance and maybe La Capitale, there aren't any other players.

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11-18-2010, 12:14 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by CarrePrisme View Post
You're deliberatly leaving out the thousands of DIRECT jobs related to the government jobs. I made that clear in the comment that I linked that a lot of government jobs have been replace by private firms but they remain on the govt payroll!!!

You're also forgetting that if you don't count the government jobs in one entity, the largest employer in the city is still the University of Laval and hospitals follow closely. Those are not accounted as civil servants job, but remain government jobs.

The large majority of the private sector is small businesses servicing all those government employees. Indirect jobs, basically.

There isn't that many large corporations in this city. A few insurance HQ's and a couple of biological businesses. Small branches of the video games industry and that's about it. Except for Desjardins in Levis, which is pretty big, Industrielle Alliance and maybe La Capitale, there aren't any other players.


You forget SSQ, Promutuel and and bunch of other big insurance players. There are 11 HQs total in the region. Anyways I'm going to stop arguing here. I lost interest when you said Laval and CHUL are the two tops employers. Should they feel guilty ? Do they not also pay for UQAM terrible management or the joke that is and will be the new CHUM? At least the CHUL is well managed and makes some top level research.

Anyways man, this city is ready for a modern hockey rink / multi functional complex. Believe it or not. they'll get private sector money in time.

It's a chance not too many people in QC city think the same as you right now because that city as an history of thinking small when there are no reason to. I'm happy they have big project like this and I'm confident they will find a way to get what they deserve,


Last edited by Markovskaya: 11-18-2010 at 12:20 PM.
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11-18-2010, 12:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
You forget SSQ, Promutuel and and cople other big insurance players. There are 11 HQs total in the region. Anyways I'm going to stop arguing here. I lost interest when you said Laval and CHUL are the tow tops employers. Should we feel guilty ? Do we not also pay for UQAM terrible management or the joke that is and will be the new CHUM? At least the CHUL is well managed and makes some top level research.

Anyways man, this city is ready for a modern hockey rink / multi functional complex. Believe it or not. We'll get privat sector money in time.

It's a chance not too many people in QC city think the same as you right now because that city as an history of thinking small when there are no reason to. I'm happy they have big project like this and I'm confident they will find a way to get what they deserve,
I purposedly forgot SSQ and Promotuel because they really aren't as big as you think. And 11 HQ is ridiculously small for the population. In comparison, Calgary has over 70.

You can lose interest as much as you want. This is factual and proves the city largely depends on tax payer's money. Once you admit that, you can realize why the rest of the province has little interest in paying for an arena.

It's not about thinking small, it's about knowing how to count. I could pretend I'm rich with someone else's credit card if I wanted to.

Btw, you say you don't want to compare with Mtl, but you keep bringing up projects in Mtl, completly ignoring that Mtl is one of the few regions in the province along with Gatineau that gets a lot less public investments for the tax revenue they generate. Not to mention they are under-represented demographically with the weight the electoral map is laid out.

Since I've been in this city I've seen a lot of misplaced pride based on myths purpoted by radio stations and a mayor who knows all too well who is dealing with.

People completly overlook facts, walking in step with they mayor, demand things, over and over.

"We want a train/tramway/arena/olympics/ferris wheel/etc..."

This is getting out of hand and it's obviously just a mayor playing the media. Anyone outside the city sees it. Just not you.

We still don't know what's your background btw.

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11-18-2010, 12:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
Is this Sarcasm ? I think you need to put at the end.

If not, then damn, I think you should get your facts straight. As I'm the first to ask for a reduction of the government spending, including the number of government imployees, Québec city's economy is not only based on government employees. The provincial government is the largest employer in the city, employing 27,900 people as of 2007 there is 800,000 living in the metropolitan region of Quebec city. Make that 60% of active population 480,000. That less the 6% of the total work force. What's your damn point ?
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/govt58a-eng.htm

According to this, Qcity has 15,301 FEDERAL jobs. I can't find good stats for the rest, but add in direct provincial civil service jobs, crown corporation jobs, public transit jobs, and far more than 6% of the workforce is employed by the provincial and federal taxpayer.

Like the Carreprisme says, all this government employment are very high paying jobs and a huge boon to all kinds of other industries as well (service, construction, manufacturing, etc.), where these government paycheques are being spent.

Anyways like you say if Qcity is so rich, they can build their arena with private or at most municipal money like every other city in north america does. Karl Pelideau/Quebecor is a 10 billion $ a year operation that wants to own the team and create content for their media empire, it can afford it. So can all the rich workers of low unemployment Qcity who want to buy 200$ tickets to see a NHL team.

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11-18-2010, 01:11 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Anyways like you say if Qcity is so rich, they can build their arena with private or at most municipal money like every other city in north america does. .
That's a simple but pretty straightforward argument.

I always get trapped into explaining these people that Quebec city really isn't as big as they like to think when all I could say is "well then, get yourself your own damn arena"

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11-18-2010, 01:15 PM
  #61
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THe ticket prices will be according to the offer and demand. It certainly wont be as expensive as Montreal.

Btw I don't have time right now but it would be very interesting to see what part played the government in the building of all 6 canadian NHL arenas in the country. I know that the Molson got a big loan for the construction of the Molson (Bell) Center.

Paying lots of taxes and government interventions are parts of the Canadian model. I don't like it one bit but when you sign a contract you're have to respect it.

And I don't think people from QC city likes to think they are bigger then they really are. They know they are not Montreal, Toronto Calgary or Vancouver. They only believe that, considering the importance of the city, they deserve more then the 1949' colisé Pepsi. And I agree with them.


Last edited by Markovskaya: 11-18-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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11-18-2010, 01:29 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
THe ticket prices will be according to the offer and demand. It certainly wont be as expensive as Montreal.

Btw I don't have time right now but it would be very interesting to see what part played the government in the building of all 6 canadian NHL arenas in the country. I know that the Molson got a big loan for the construction of the Molson (Bell) Center.

There

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11-18-2010, 01:35 PM
  #63
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Yeah I know, a loan. I repeat that I don't want to see the government finance 100% of the cost. They can give a big loan with low interest to Quebecor and it would be best.

But let's remember where this argument started. You were basicly saying that Quebec is not big enough, not rich enough to get a new rink and a NHL franchise. And I strongly disagree.


Last edited by Markovskaya: 11-18-2010 at 01:41 PM.
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11-19-2010, 02:43 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Drive425 View Post

Has gov't money been used to build any other NHL hockey rink in Canada?

I believe the only ones that didnt get some sort of gvt funding are the arenas in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. The big ones.

Owners in Edmonton presently actively discuss with the province of Alberta to build a new arena.

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Originally Posted by CarrePrisme View Post
Alberta has historically never depended on federal money and in that sense, has always lost more than it generated, regardless of its population size.
"History" usually takes a little more into account than the last 30 years.

It is thanks to heavy federal subsidies mostly coming from the east of the country that Alberta lifted up from a literally have-nothing-but-wheat province to a massive oil producer.


Last edited by Vineon: 11-19-2010 at 02:58 AM.
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11-19-2010, 01:14 PM
  #65
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I believe the only ones that didnt get some sort of gvt funding are the arenas in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. The big ones.

Owners in Edmonton presently actively discuss with the province of Alberta to build a new arena.



"History" usually takes a little more into account than the last 30 years.

It is thanks to heavy federal subsidies mostly coming from the east of the country that Alberta lifted up from a literally have-nothing-but-wheat province to a massive oil producer.
And if you go back before that, federal funds mostly coming from the east of the built roads and railways, making it possible for people to actually settle there, lifting that province from inaccessible to accessible Nah seriously back then it was mostly private companies exploiting Ontario and Quebec's workforce that paid for that

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11-19-2010, 01:28 PM
  #66
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Now you guys are getting silly. Are you seriously trying to imply that the settlement and development of provinces west of Ontario has been a net drain on the nation of Canada?

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11-19-2010, 01:32 PM
  #67
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Now you guys are getting silly. Are you seriously trying to imply that the settlement and development of provinces west of Ontario has been a net drain on the nation of Canada?
This entired thing is way off topic but for the fun I'll answer that I don't know, and it would be interesting to look into it !

Don't forget the constant value of $. Building up those railways, roads and infrastructures was a lot of money and in 2010 $ it would certainly be a couple of hundred billion dollars

Seriously tho, I don't think it would be more then the total of incomes that will be generated with crude and sand oil from Alberta. Good investment indeed !

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