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CIS Hockey: Official Hollywood Top 34: 2010-11

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Old
11-16-2010, 08:52 PM
  #26
puck passion
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Originally Posted by blackmarketmob View Post
Who are these supporters you are speaking of? I'm guessing not on this site? There are maybe a handful of OUA supporters on here, people like myself, nosl, Thook etc, but none of us are delusional enough to think that our best teams like McGill, Western, Lakehead don't receive enough support. In fact, I think our feelings are on the contrary. The CIS top ten is constantly littered with OUA teams, often as high as 2 or 3. I would be shocked if any of us actually felt that McGill is in the same realm as perennial contenders Alberta and UNB, never mind ahead of the V-Reds.


It seems NOSL, first, and NorthVan Man, secondly, were questioning Hollywood's Top 34 logic.

You can't disagree with Mr. Stauffer's history lesson regarding OUA teams at the University Cup national championships in recent years (and the OUA wasn't that good during the previous six years of which Stauffer spoke, save for UQTR and a very brief rise by Western) . . . . . . And, no, I can't see any Ontario/Quebec winning a national title in Fredericton over the next two years and Saskatoon in the following two years, not with likely stacked AUS and CW teams surely competing there.
So you could almost safely add another four-year drought for the OUA.

The OUA (Lakehead, etc.) had its chance in T-Bay and didn't get it done.

They'll likely have to wait until Nipissing plays host —— or Montreal or Trois-Rivieres or London or Ottawa or wherever —— to have their best shot at it.

In the meantime, the OUA probably won't get much respect, not unless there are big changes ahead.

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11-17-2010, 07:16 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Archie Jones View Post
SnipeShow91, without the flukey 2nd goal there would be no empty net goal.

A game between two of the top teams in the CIS deserves first class officiating. I honestly don't think either team got it on Saturday.

I never found Mr. Hulshof to be a very competent ref in the Q so I'm not surprised that his work leaves a lot to be desired for both teams at the AUS level. There were suspect calls both ways on Saturday night but they certainly seemed to favor SMU with two 2 man advantages, a mickey mouse hitting from behind call against Ben Wright and the untimely too many men call right after the same missed call against SMU.
Its tough to referee in this league. If you caught the STU game, it was missed calls on both ends, and wrong calls on the STU side.

and if the fluke goal dosent go in, does UNB win the game? Conway was playing great the whole game, its still 1-0. Goal still went in on a friendly bounce. Would it be a fluke if UNB scored the same kinda goal. A win is a win.

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Old
11-17-2010, 12:22 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by puck passion View Post
It seems NOSL, first, and NorthVan Man, secondly, were questioning Hollywood's Top 34 logic.

You can't disagree with Mr. Stauffer's history lesson regarding OUA teams at the University Cup national championships in recent years (and the OUA wasn't that good during the previous six years of which Stauffer spoke, save for UQTR and a very brief rise by Western) . . . . . . And, no, I can't see any Ontario/Quebec winning a national title in Fredericton over the next two years and Saskatoon in the following two years, not with likely stacked AUS and CW teams surely competing there.
So you could almost safely add another four-year drought for the OUA.

The OUA (Lakehead, etc.) had its chance in T-Bay and didn't get it done.

They'll likely have to wait until Nipissing plays host or Montreal or Trois-Rivieres or London or Ottawa or wherever to have their best shot at it.

In the meantime, the OUA probably won't get much respect, not unless there are big changes ahead.
I don't think the argument relates to whether an OUA team is going to win at nationals (because they won't), but more so of where they fit against the top secondary teams from other conferences. Over the past 2 years I think Hollywood has placed the top OUA teams fairly accurately, usually somewhere between 5-12.

Bob's "history lesson" to me shows that the CW has won 3 championships since 2004. The last time a team other than Alberta won was 1994 when Lethbridge won. Over the past few years what I have seen is that while the Canada West is certainly strong, the depth of the AUS is scary. Last year the AUS's clearly strongest regular season team was eliminated before nationals, and the AUS's 3rd place team in the regular season won nationals. The AUS "secondary favorites" seem to still be better than almost all the teams accross the rest of Canada.

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11-17-2010, 03:29 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmarketmob View Post
Who are these supporters you are speaking of? I'm guessing not on this site? There are maybe a handful of OUA supporters on here, people like myself, nosl, Thook etc, but none of us are delusional enough to think that our best teams like McGill, Western, Lakehead don't receive enough support. In fact, I think our feelings are on the contrary. The CIS top ten is constantly littered with OUA teams, often as high as 2 or 3. I would be shocked if any of us actually felt that McGill is in the same realm as perennial contenders Alberta and UNB, never mind ahead of the V-Reds.
That's true. On this board the OUA supporters are generally realistic about where their teams stand on a national basis.

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11-17-2010, 03:41 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by blackmarketmob View Post
I don't think the argument relates to whether an OUA team is going to win at nationals (because they won't), but more so of where they fit against the top secondary teams from other conferences. Over the past 2 years I think Hollywood has placed the top OUA teams fairly accurately, usually somewhere between 5-12.

Bob's "history lesson" to me shows that the CW has won 3 championships since 2004. The last time a team other than Alberta won was 1994 when Lethbridge won. Over the past few years what I have seen is that while the Canada West is certainly strong, the depth of the AUS is scary. Last year the AUS's clearly strongest regular season team was eliminated before nationals, and the AUS's 3rd place team in the regular season won nationals. The AUS "secondary favorites" seem to still be better than almost all the teams accross the rest of Canada.
This is basically true, also.

The one edge that CW has over the AUS is that CW teams never seem to be really horrible. The last place team can usually do pretty well against other leagues. In fact, the 7th place team is usually fairly close to 4th place. I remember the year the Bisons finished last, they had wins over Alberta and Sask, both of whom were highly rated, and could easily have finished as high as 3rd.

In contrast, the AUS often has one or two teams that are way out of it. STU seems to be such a team this year. Dalhouise and Moncton have recently been doormats, also.

The other thing to consider is that Alberta has never stumbled. This has provided fewer chances for Sask, Manitoba, and Calgary to win like Acadia, St FX, and St. Mary's have. One reason for this is that the higher seeded team hosts the whole series in the CW, so upsets are rare. (The Bisons were upset by Regina 2 years ago and in turn upset Sask last year, in two rare examples.) In fact the year Regina beat Manitoba, they also won game 1 against Alberta. I am left to wonder what might have happened if they had game 2 on home ice.

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11-17-2010, 03:47 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by puck passion View Post
. . . . . . And, no, I can't see any Ontario/Quebec winning a national title in Fredericton over the next two years and Saskatoon in the following two years, not with likely stacked AUS and CW teams surely competing there.
So you could almost safely add another four-year drought for the OUA.

The OUA (Lakehead, etc.) had its chance in T-Bay and didn't get it done.

They'll likely have to wait until Nipissing plays host —— or Montreal or Trois-Rivieres or London or Ottawa or wherever —— to have their best shot at it.

In the meantime, the OUA probably won't get much respect, not unless there are big changes ahead.
I would be surprised, but not shocked, to see an OUA team win at nationals. They are always guaranteed 2 places. And we have seen teams go 1-1, get lucky with a tie-breaker, and there they are in a winner-take-all final. Remember SMU's melt-down against the Urban Cowboys?

BTW, I have been disappointed with Lakehead's play at nationals. A few years back I would have bet they'd have a national title, and several more wins, at nationals.

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Old
11-17-2010, 04:02 PM
  #32
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My earlier point was simply that it's tough to see a 17-0 team ranked as a "B" (even if they have been beating punching bags for the most part), especially when they have defeated the team immediately ahead of them in the rankings. I understand how Hollywood's rankings work (in principle) so I'm not debating that - just empathizing with McGill who would probably say "what more can we do?"

You get no disagreement from me about the relative strength of the OUA compared to Canada West and the AUS. There have been a couple of very good points about OUA teams that help to explain the discrepancy:

- The number of teams in close geographic proximity does spread the talent kind of thin (this happens in football too), but I think the exodus of good hockey players out of the province has as much or more of an impact. Many go to the NCAA. I haven't looked in a couple of years, but 3 or 4 years ago I took a look at the AUS rosters and was shocked by the number of players from Ontario on AUS teams - if I recall, Moncton and STU were the exceptions. Not sure if this is still the case

- There is no question in my mind that if you took the top few teams in the OUA and put them in either the AUS of Canada West they would (a) win less often, but (b) become better teams. The lack of strong competition during the regular season is a killer for the good teams and I absolutely agree that contributes to the poor showing at the Nationals year after year.

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11-17-2010, 07:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by northvanman View Post
My earlier point was simply that it's tough to see a 17-0 team ranked as a "B" (even if they have been beating punching bags for the most part), especially when they have defeated the team immediately ahead of them in the rankings. I understand how Hollywood's rankings work (in principle) so I'm not debating that - just empathizing with McGill who would probably say "what more can we do?"

You get no disagreement from me about the relative strength of the OUA compared to Canada West and the AUS. There have been a couple of very good points about OUA teams that help to explain the discrepancy:

- The number of teams in close geographic proximity does spread the talent kind of thin (this happens in football too), but I think the exodus of good hockey players out of the province has as much or more of an impact. Many go to the NCAA. I haven't looked in a couple of years, but 3 or 4 years ago I took a look at the AUS rosters and was shocked by the number of players from Ontario on AUS teams - if I recall, Moncton and STU were the exceptions. Not sure if this is still the case

- There is no question in my mind that if you took the top few teams in the OUA and put them in either the AUS of Canada West they would (a) win less often, but (b) become better teams. The lack of strong competition during the regular season is a killer for the good teams and I absolutely agree that contributes to the poor showing at the Nationals year after year.
The AUS teams also scooped a lot of guys from out west this year.

I agree that the leading programs from Ontario would get better with solid competition every week.

As for "what else could McGill do?", it is early. If Calgary had been in Asia on tour and just got back and was 2-0 against Regina, I would not have them ranked as an A level team, either.

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Old
11-17-2010, 08:53 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
I would be surprised, but not shocked, to see an OUA team win at nationals. They are always guaranteed 2 places. And we have seen teams go 1-1, get lucky with a tie-breaker, and there they are in a winner-take-all final. Remember SMU's melt-down against the Urban Cowboys?

BTW, I have been disappointed with Lakehead's play at nationals. A few years back I would have bet they'd have a national title, and several more wins, at nationals.
Yes, I do clearly remember SMU's meltdown a couple years back against the Western Ontario Mustangs. I also remember Lakehead taking a run at the 2006 Uni Cup, stunning Saskatchewan although totally out-played, and then nearly upsetting host Alberta. A large part of that was the play of their goalie at the time, Chris Whitley.

Yes, in the University Cup format, it is totally feasible and not shocking to see lesser teams steal games in one-off scenarios. However, it's pretty tough to pull off a three-game heist.

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11-17-2010, 09:12 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by puck passion View Post
Yes, I do clearly remember SMU's meltdown a couple years back against the Western Ontario Mustangs. I also remember Lakehead taking a run at the 2006 Uni Cup, stunning Saskatchewan although totally out-played, and then nearly upsetting host Alberta. A large part of that was the play of their goalie at the time, Chris Whitley.

Yes, in the University Cup format, it is totally feasible and not shocking to see lesser teams steal games in one-off scenarios. However, it's pretty tough to pull off a three-game heist.
yes lakehead did take a run in 2006 with whitley in net. That being said last years lakehead team was even better. Had whitley been around one more year lakehead would have had as good a chance as any team last season.

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Old
11-17-2010, 10:10 PM
  #36
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Saskatchewan

It will be interesting to see how the western Huskies match up against Alberta?
With thier very skilled and strong recruiting class of 2009-10, I expected them to push a Bear team that has gone through a lot of change during this off season.
I expect to see them at Nationals, but won't be shocked if they cannot gain the second CanadaWest birth.

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11-18-2010, 05:16 AM
  #37
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Although I believe UNB will lose its fair share of Hockey Games heading into the Second half of the season, due to the injuries of several key players, Daine Todd, Taylor Prosychen, and most importantly although we have Ben Wright Back in the Lineup, We Lost our leading Scoring Defenseman Luke Gallant, until atleast the Second half of the season, and perhaps the best overall defenseman in Ben Shutron for at least a good chunk of the year. I will be very anxious to see what the McGill vs UNB Matchup will be like over the Break, specialy if McGill comes in unbeating and ranked 2nd or maybe 1st by than, while UNB may have 2 to 4 loses by that time and be ranked as low as 5th

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Old
11-18-2010, 01:07 PM
  #38
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All that matters is who is carrying the cup around the ice at years-end!

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11-18-2010, 10:07 PM
  #39
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Is it 2 representatives from each conference this year?

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11-19-2010, 08:05 AM
  #40
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Is it 2 representatives from each conference this year?
The short answer is yes.

The rotating wild card goes to Canada West for 2011, so they will have two teams.

OUA as a double-conference gets their customary two spots.

Since UNB is host, there will be two AUS teams.

The rotating wildcard will go to an OUA team for the 2012 Nationals in Fredericton.

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11-19-2010, 09:29 AM
  #41
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The short answer is yes.

The rotating wild card goes to Canada West for 2011, so they will have two teams.

OUA as a double-conference gets their customary two spots.

Since UNB is host, there will be two AUS teams.

The rotating wildcard will go to an OUA team for the 2012 Nationals in Fredericton.
The long answer is that the CIS, nor most of us, can come up with a better way to give out the wildcard seat. Right now, giving the OUA three of the six places seems absurb because it is so weak; but how else could it be handled?

I will still go back to the sixth spot being voted by the coaches, I like the wildcard being truly in the hands of the other teams who can judge who belongs.

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11-19-2010, 09:47 AM
  #42
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The long answer is that the CIS, nor most of us, can come up with a better way to give out the wildcard seat. Right now, giving the OUA three of the six places seems absurb because it is so weak; but how else could it be handled?

I will still go back to the sixth spot being voted by the coaches, I like the wildcard being truly in the hands of the other teams who can judge who belongs.
Coaches?
Do you really think the coaches would vote for the team that truly belongs or, instead, maybe vote for ANY team OTHER than the one which that coach/team would least desire to play and therefore effectively vote for one of the top-ranked teams that they would simply be OK with playing?
It may be simpler just to go with the next top-ranked team in the CIS Top 10 not already going, no?? (If you want to trust the CIS Top 10 people and that's a whole other topic.) Of course, this would practically ensure UNB and Alberta an automatic berth to the University Cup and eliminate any true playoff upsets. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Are second chances in the true spirit of sport?
Another option would be to always have the 2-2-2 scenario with the host team being one of the two from its respective conference. Yet another would to go to a four-team Memorial Cup-style tournament with the AUS, CW and OUA East/West champions along with the host team.

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11-19-2010, 09:58 AM
  #43
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like I said, none of us have the solution no matter what format you use, with a single game as the final, anything can happen. Until they find a way to give the final two teams a series, anyone can win, and maybe that is a good thing???

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11-19-2010, 10:16 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by puck passion View Post
Coaches?
Do you really think the coaches would vote for the team that truly belongs or, instead, maybe vote for ANY team OTHER than the one which that coach/team would least desire to play and therefore effectively vote for one of the top-ranked teams that they would simply be OK with playing?
It may be simpler just to go with the next top-ranked team in the CIS Top 10 not already going, no?? (If you want to trust the CIS Top 10 people and that's a whole other topic.) Of course, this would practically ensure UNB and Alberta an automatic berth to the University Cup and eliminate any true playoff upsets. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Are second chances in the true spirit of sport?
Another option would be to always have the 2-2-2 scenario with the host team being one of the two from its respective conference. Yet another would to go to a four-team Memorial Cup-style tournament with the AUS, CW and OUA East/West champions along with the host team.
I think the 2-2-2 scenario makes the most sense if you are to stick with the current format. Having years where the AUS or the CW gets 1 berth makes no sense to me, and 2 teams, one from the OUA West and one from the OUA East is enough each year.

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11-19-2010, 10:18 AM
  #45
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Don't forget, the University Cup format is supposed to change after Fredericton hosts. They are going to add an extra day for true semi-finals.

There will still be six teams, divided in two pools of three teams. Each team plays two games. So far, the same as now.

Next, the top team in pool A will play the second team in pool B in one semi-final and the top team in pool B will play the second team in pool A in the other semi-final. That will take up the extra day. The two winners will then meet in the championship game.

They may still need a tie-break formula to sort out team 1 and team 2 in each pool.

If you look back to March, in Pool A Alberta finished first and Lakehead finished second while in Pool B SMU finished first and Mantioba finished second. So Alberta would have met Manitoba in one semi and SMU met Lakehead in the other. All things being equal, Alberta and SMU would probably still have advanced to the final. This scenario is only tidy because UQTR in Pool A and McGill in Pool B lost both their games, making it easy to sort out 1, 2, 3.

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11-19-2010, 11:38 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddtFoyle View Post
Don't forget, the University Cup format is supposed to change after Fredericton hosts. They are going to add an extra day for true semi-finals.

There will still be six teams, divided in two pools of three teams. Each team plays two games. So far, the same as now.

Next, the top team in pool A will play the second team in pool B in one semi-final and the top team in pool B will play the second team in pool A in the other semi-final. That will take up the extra day. The two winners will then meet in the championship game.

They may still need a tie-break formula to sort out team 1 and team 2 in each pool.

If you look back to March, in Pool A Alberta finished first and Lakehead finished second while in Pool B SMU finished first and Mantioba finished second. So Alberta would have met Manitoba in one semi and SMU met Lakehead in the other. All things being equal, Alberta and SMU would probably still have advanced to the final. This scenario is only tidy because UQTR in Pool A and McGill in Pool B lost both their games, making it easy to sort out 1, 2, 3.
This is interesting...the first time I have heard of this actually...I never knew they were changing the format after next year. My only concern is that, if I am reading this correctly, if they add true semi-finals but only one extra day you could have a situation where one team would have to play 4 days in a row. Say the tourney runs Wed (a day earlier than now) - Sun...obviously one team from each pool will sit out Wednesday while the other two teams in their respective pools play. Then the teams that have Wednesday off will have to play their round robin games Thursday and Friday, play a potential semi final Saturday, and a potential final Sunday. That seems like a bit much to me.

I guess you can try to avoid this as often as possible by having the weakest teams from each pool start on Thursday figuring they will most likely lose both of their round robin games and eliminating them from the 'playoff' portion of the tourney.

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11-19-2010, 12:23 PM
  #47
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We are starting this early this year! Here are the official Hollywood thoughts:

- If they have 6 teams then it should be two per conference no matter who hosts.

- Six teams is too awkward. I would prefer 8 in a single knockout format.

- The added semi-finals would be nice, in a way. But they would (probably) have to change the schedule so that the winners on day one would come back to play again on day two. Otherwise on day three you could have four teams all at 1-0 playing exhibition games.

- If they did go to 8 teams, I would say the allocation should be 2 teams from each conference, plus the host, and the 8th team would come from a conference that is not hosting based on performance at the prior years' nationals. So this year it would be 3 AUS, 3 CW, and 2 OUA.

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11-19-2010, 12:46 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Squirrel Forever View Post
The long answer is that the CIS, nor most of us, can come up with a better way to give out the wildcard seat. Right now, giving the OUA three of the six places seems absurb because it is so weak; but how else could it be handled?

I will still go back to the sixth spot being voted by the coaches, I like the wildcard being truly in the hands of the other teams who can judge who belongs.
Sixth spot should go to conference that produced last year's champion. A reward for performance!!!

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11-19-2010, 09:05 PM
  #49
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U Cup format

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Originally Posted by blackmarketmob View Post
I think the 2-2-2 scenario makes the most sense if you are to stick with the current format. Having years where the AUS or the CW gets 1 berth makes no sense to me, and 2 teams, one from the OUA West and one from the OUA East is enough each year.
This is the best format (2,2,2), regardless of the OUA having the most teams!
A National Championship is a showcase of the CIS's best talent and I totally disagree with 3 births going to one conference, especially the OUA! "Bob Total Hockey" is dead on when you look at the results dating back to 2004. Even then, UNB outshot UQTR something like 50-20 and lost in the semi-final. That game was stolen by a goaltender that had an unbelievable game. UQTR was the most recent team to win at Nationals from that conference, but unlike some others on this site are led to believe, yes it can happen in a one game final and could happen this year?
An 8 team tournament is to much, that's what the league playoffs are for!

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11-19-2010, 10:19 PM
  #50
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This is interesting...the first time I have heard of this actually...I never knew they were changing the format after next year. My only concern is that, if I am reading this correctly, if they add true semi-finals but only one extra day you could have a situation where one team would have to play 4 days in a row. Say the tourney runs Wed (a day earlier than now) - Sun...obviously one team from each pool will sit out Wednesday while the other two teams in their respective pools play. Then the teams that have Wednesday off will have to play their round robin games Thursday and Friday, play a potential semi final Saturday, and a potential final Sunday. That seems like a bit much to me.
As I understand it, the coaches put forward the semi-final game and it was approved by the CIS. What wasn't worked out it how to manage the tourney schedule so that, as you mentioned, teams don't have to play 4 games in 4 days. Since UNB had been awarded the hosting before these tourney changes, those changes couldn't be imposed on UNB.

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