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What if East and West Germany were combined ?

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Old
11-15-2010, 03:36 PM
  #1
jeff m
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What if East and West Germany were combined ?

Anyone out there have any opinions on how well a unified Germany team would have done at the World Championships and the Olympics in the 1960's and 70's.

Seems like both squads always placed low in the A-pool or high in the B-pool.Could they have been more competetive if combined ?

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11-16-2010, 01:30 AM
  #2
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they still wouldn't have been any good.

what if they had a womens team that really looked like a guys team?

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11-16-2010, 03:29 AM
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I think they would have usually fought against Finland for the fourth-fifth place - and mostly losing it. This is not really a Czech and Slovakia kind of scenario we are talking about here. I do remember, though, that Finland played some really bad games against both of them; especially vs. West Germany and Erich "Iso-Eerikki" Kühnhackl.


Last edited by VMBM: 11-16-2010 at 06:25 AM.
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Old
11-16-2010, 07:48 AM
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jeff m
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VMBM thanks for the reply.

Wonder how Erich "Iso-Eerikki" Kühnhackl would have been as a player if his family had stayed in Czechoslovakia.

Timekeep I think all there woman who participated in sports in that time period probably had more testosterone than most of us guys.Probably would have sucked at hockey but could probably hold there own in bench clearing brawl.

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11-16-2010, 10:49 AM
  #5
VMBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff m View Post
VMBM thanks for the reply.

Wonder how Erich "Iso-Eerikki" Kühnhackl would have been as a player if his family had stayed in Czechoslovakia.
One of those big 'what ifs', isn't it? Of course, being far and away the best player on a weak-ish team like West Germany doesn't necessarily mean that he would have been a huge star on Czechoslovak ntl team, not to mention Team USSR.

Kühnhackl did win the scoring title at the 1978 WC, but then again, so did Holger Meitinger in 1981, with his teammate Ernst Höfner 2nd (boy, West Germany must have faced quite 'ideal' opponents then). Kühnhackl was a good, consistent scorer at the world championship level, but I don't really remember, nor have I studied it, how efficient he was against the Soviets, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, i.e. the 'good teams'. All I can remember is that he often gave us Finns hell.

BTW, at the 1983 WC, we lost to East Germany TWICE
Not that Finland had a great team (yet) then, but those were the games we SHOULD HAVE won easily...

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11-16-2010, 11:40 AM
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jeff m
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What if's can be fun to talk about.

I have always wondered and haven't been able to find out why Kühnhackl didn't play in the 80 Olympics.When you look at his league stats it doesn't look like he missed any games there.

VMBM by know means am I an expert on Finland Hockey but it seems like they used to put more effort into beating Sweden and then would lose to some average teams.

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11-16-2010, 03:48 PM
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WickedWrister
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Can't really contribute to the main topic but Eric Kuenhackl's son, Tomas was just drafted by the Penguins this year. Played in Germany up until his draft year and is currently playing for Windsor in the OHL. He's been absolutely on fire the past 15 games or so after a rough transition period.

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11-16-2010, 04:02 PM
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Vladsky
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IIRC, East German top hockey league numbered just two teams which played each other like 50 times for championship (just imagine what a hell of a PO series it was ).

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11-16-2010, 06:40 PM
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jeff m
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WickedWrister I didn't know that the Pens drafted him and I should have considering they are the team closest to where I live.

Vladsky I think they dropped down to 2 teams in the early 70's because of money issues.I have been trying to find player stats for years for East Germany.Dynamo Berlin has great stats but I can't find any for Weiswasser.

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11-16-2010, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladsky View Post
IIRC, East German top hockey league numbered just two teams which played each other like 50 times for championship (just imagine what a hell of a PO series it was ).
Hockey is always (as in: literally forever) cited as the prime example for the selectiveness-related efficiency of the sports subsidies in Eastern Germany: As a Socialist state, the GDR did not have very much money, but had the urgent desire to excel their Capitalist class enemies in sports. Therefore they paid heavily, where success was quite cheap to achieve (especially women's singular sports), whereas hocky, being a very expensive team sport, was virtually forgotten.

By the way, at least one of those two Eastern German teams made their way after reunification: Former Dynamo Berlin is called Eisbären Berlin now (owned by AEG) and regularly is one of the best German teams, having outclassed their now-defunct opponent in Western Berlin.

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Old
11-16-2010, 08:56 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WickedWrister View Post
Can't really contribute to the main topic but Eric Kuenhackl's son, Tomas was just drafted by the Penguins this year. Played in Germany up until his draft year and is currently playing for Windsor in the OHL. He's been absolutely on fire the past 15 games or so after a rough transition period.

The younger is 13-9-21 in 21 games and yes he had a slow start.

As for combing the East and West teams I think maybe they win a game or two that they didn't win but the affect of the combination of the two teams would have been very small.

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Old
11-17-2010, 02:55 PM
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...The $$$$ would go towards the dynamic East German Womens Olympic Teamno doubt

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11-17-2010, 03:02 PM
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Eisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladsky View Post
IIRC, East German top hockey league numbered just two teams which played each other like 50 times for championship (just imagine what a hell of a PO series it was ).
True rivalry!!!

I doubt that any of these East German players even would have made the admittedly not world class top two lines of the FRG.

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11-17-2010, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
I doubt that any of these East German players even would have made the admittedly not world class top two lines of the FRG.
Quite possible - if you draw an analogy with football (IIRC):

- After unification only two DDR teams made it to the Bundesliga (Rostock and Dresden), and did not stay in the top flight for too long anyway

- Similarly, only 2 or 3 DDR players made it on the unified Bundesmannschaft, with only Matthias Sammer emerging as a true star.

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Old
11-17-2010, 04:54 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladsky View Post
Quite possible - if you draw an analogy with football (IIRC):

- After unification only two DDR teams made it to the Bundesliga (Rostock and Dresden), and did not stay in the top flight for too long anyway

- Similarly, only 2 or 3 DDR players made it on the unified Bundesmannschaft, with only Matthias Sammer emerging as a true star.
ANd a great one he was. Too bad injuries caught up with him. One of my favourites.

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Old
11-18-2010, 05:04 AM
  #16
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When you have two not very great teams, I dont think, they would do better when combined. Maybe a little, but not mentionable.

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11-18-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladsky View Post
Quite possible - if you draw an analogy with football (IIRC):

- After unification only two DDR teams made it to the Bundesliga (Rostock and Dresden), and did not stay in the top flight for too long anyway

- Similarly, only 2 or 3 DDR players made it on the unified Bundesmannschaft, with only Matthias Sammer emerging as a true star.
The soccer comparison cannot be deemed as an analogy at all, for several reasons: Dresden and Rostock were not able to keep their star players, because Eastern Germany was and still is economically weaker than many regions in the West. Plus you forgot to mention Ballack, who was born and trained in Saxony.

Back in the 70ies and 80ies, there were stricter rules about having Non-German players on your team, which lead to the clubs having more German players (including all these Canadians, Czechs and Russians, who discovered their German roots when playing here). Thus Western Germany certainly lacked top-class players, but not the depth which players from Eastern Germany would have particularly provided.

Gruß,
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Old
11-18-2010, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I think they would have usually fought against Finland for the fourth-fifth place - and mostly losing it.
In the 60s they usually fought against Finland even not combined. Just looked up the results:
61: GDR 5. - FIN 7. - FRG 8.
63: FIN 5. - GDR 6. - FRG 7.
65: GDR 5. - FIN 7.
66: GDR 5. - FIN 7.
67: FIN 6. - GDR 7. - FRG 8.
68: FIN 5. - FRG 7. - GDR 8.
69: FIN 5. - GDR 7. - FRG 10.
70: FIN 4. - GDR 5. - FRG 8.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
I doubt that any of these East German players even would have made the admittedly not world class top two lines of the FRG.
I doubt that you are right with this statement. Before the decision in 1970 East Germany was better as you can see above and even after it they got some good results. In the European Cup Dynamo Berlin reached the Semifinal in 68 (DEG 2nd round), 69 (Füssen 2nd rd) and Weisswasser in 72 (Füssen 3rd rd) and 75 (BSC 3rd rd). 1977 Dynamo Berlin lost to Berliner SC but defeated Cologne in 1978. Then in 1984 Dynamo Berlin was at third place in Europe.

I´d say the East Germans were better than most think even with the two-team-league. Nobody wanted them to be at the WC Group A, in the 80s they were even told to lose to not move up to Group A again. I even heard of a player who had offers from the NHL but was not allowed, but can't remember who it was.

---

Would still have been 5th most of the times to answer the OPs question I'd assume.

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Old
11-18-2010, 12:58 PM
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East German hockey is difficult to judge after the 60s because in 1969 ice hockey was effectively cancelled by the state in favor of single-competitor sports with a higher investment-to-medals ratio. Intervention by Erich Mielke, head of the infamous Staatssicherheitdienst and a big fan of "his" sports teams (teams named "Dynamo" were all sponsored by the Stasi or the police), saved only two teams from the axe - Dynamo Berlin and Dynamo Weißwasser who then played each other in the world's smallest league from 1970 to 1990. All the other East German teams like Crimmitschau, Dresden or Erfurt were cut down to "hobby sports" status, their good players sent to Berlin or Weißwasser and their coaches moved to figure skating and speed skating. Those markets all had to rebuild almost from scratch after reunification. For instance, Crimmitschau had to play in the Bavarian league for two years (even winning their title in 1992) because there was no league infrastructure left in the East below the two Dynamos. Erfurt similarly started over in the neighbouring state of Hesse and Dresden didn't even get back to real pro hockey until the late 90s. In some ways those clubs are still catching up to the 20 years they were forced to miss.

This concentration of talent helped those two clubs and kept the national team quite competitive despite enormous interference by the state who didn't want their other sports overshadowed. East Germany was qualified for the Olympics in 1972, 1976, 1980 and 1984 but wasn't allowed to go by their own country every time. And in 1985 they were forced to lose all WHC games so they would be relegated to the B pool once and for all. There were still some players like Ziesche, Bielke or Nickel who could have helped West Germany. One of the best German players of all time, defenseman Udo Kießling, was born in Crimmitschau but his family fled to the West when he was a baby. Who knows what could have been.

Dynamo Berlin is now "Eisbären Berlin", owned by Anschutz Entertainment Group and one of the big dogs in German hockey. Weißwasser (a town of 20,000 in the far corner of Saxony) was also a founding member of the DEL but could not compete financially and is now playing in the 2nd tier league as "Lausitzer Füchse".


Last edited by Burgs: 11-18-2010 at 01:03 PM.
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Old
11-18-2010, 01:12 PM
  #20
jeff m
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Thanks for the wonderful information on East German Hockey.

Does anyone know of any books or yearbooks that provide player stats for East or West Germany pre 1990.I do have EISHOCKEY GUIDE 1996/97 that provides many players career stats but I would like to see individual seasons.

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11-18-2010, 01:40 PM
  #21
VMBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauro View Post
In the 60s they usually fought against Finland even not combined. Just looked up the results:
61: GDR 5. - FIN 7. - FRG 8.
63: FIN 5. - GDR 6. - FRG 7.
65: GDR 5. - FIN 7.
66: GDR 5. - FIN 7.
67: FIN 6. - GDR 7. - FRG 8.
68: FIN 5. - FRG 7. - GDR 8.
69: FIN 5. - GDR 7. - FRG 10.
70: FIN 4. - GDR 5. - FRG 8.
Especially in the Seventies, though, Finland clearly had the upper hand:

71: FIN 4. - FRG 5. - GDR 9
72: FIN 4. - FRG 5. - GDR 9
73: FIN 4. - FRG 6. - GDR 7
74: FIN 4. - GDR 6. - FRG 9
75: FIN 4. - GDR 6. - FRG 7
etc. etc.

Maybe I said it a bit unclearly, but I agree with the majority; it wouldn't have had a big effect - but maybe enough that they would have usually beaten Poland, USA and the sort.

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Old
11-18-2010, 03:30 PM
  #22
Eisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauro View Post
In the 60s they usually fought against Finland even not combined. Just looked up the results:
61: GDR 5. - FIN 7. - FRG 8.
63: FIN 5. - GDR 6. - FRG 7.
65: GDR 5. - FIN 7.
66: GDR 5. - FIN 7.
67: FIN 6. - GDR 7. - FRG 8.
68: FIN 5. - FRG 7. - GDR 8.
69: FIN 5. - GDR 7. - FRG 10.
70: FIN 4. - GDR 5. - FRG 8.




I doubt that you are right with this statement. Before the decision in 1970 East Germany was better as you can see above and even after it they got some good results. In the European Cup Dynamo Berlin reached the Semifinal in 68 (DEG 2nd round), 69 (Füssen 2nd rd) and Weisswasser in 72 (Füssen 3rd rd) and 75 (BSC 3rd rd). 1977 Dynamo Berlin lost to Berliner SC but defeated Cologne in 1978. Then in 1984 Dynamo Berlin was at third place in Europe.

I´d say the East Germans were better than most think even with the two-team-league. Nobody wanted them to be at the WC Group A, in the 80s they were even told to lose to not move up to Group A again. I even heard of a player who had offers from the NHL but was not allowed, but can't remember who it was.

---

Would still have been 5th most of the times to answer the OPs question I'd assume.
Didn't look as far back as the 60. But in the 70s and especially the 80s there was not a lot left of GDR hockey.

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Old
11-19-2010, 03:46 PM
  #23
jeff m
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Found some league leaders for East Berlin 1968/69 season In Finland Yearbook.

Hartmut Nickel 23+18=41
Joachim Ziesche 25+14-39
Helmut Novy 22+13=35
Peter Prusa 22+11=33
? Domke 18+8=26
Erhard Braun 18+6=24
Wilfried Rohrbach 15+9=24
Bernd Hiller 16+6=22
Wolfgang Mucha 16+6=22
Dietmar Peters 15+7=22

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