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Which is more valuable to Poile? 4 first round picks or Shea Weber???

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Old
11-19-2010, 05:29 PM
  #51
glenngineer
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Dulz, first off, if you knew why we held on to Hamhuis, which was stated by Poile and Trotz, it was because they felt he gave us a better chance at winning in the playoffs. If we had advanced, they would've re-signed him with the money generated from the playoff series. We didn't so he was let go. We could've gotten value for him sure but would we have made the playoffs, debatable.

The comparison I was talking about with Suter and Weber to the Anaheim pair is look what's happened to the blue line in Anaheim in a matter of two years. Do we want the same thing to happen here, by giving up our first pair defensemen? Is that a smart move? How would Chicago look if they lost Keith and Seabrook? How would Detroit look if they lost Lidstrom and Rafalski? Any team that loses their top two defensemen are going to be hurting. That's they point I was making.

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11-19-2010, 09:32 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Dulz, first off, if you knew why we held on to Hamhuis, which was stated by Poile and Trotz, it was because they felt he gave us a better chance at winning in the playoffs. If we had advanced, they would've re-signed him with the money generated from the playoff series. We didn't so he was let go. We could've gotten value for him sure but would we have made the playoffs, debatable.

The comparison I was talking about with Suter and Weber to the Anaheim pair is look what's happened to the blue line in Anaheim in a matter of two years. Do we want the same thing to happen here, by giving up our first pair defensemen? Is that a smart move? How would Chicago look if they lost Keith and Seabrook? How would Detroit look if they lost Lidstrom and Rafalski? Any team that loses their top two defensemen are going to be hurting. That's they point I was making.
I don't see anyone suggesting that we should get rid of Suter and Weber. Two options being suggested 1) If Poile doesn't feel like he can sign Weber long term, it'd be in the best interest to trade him for a huge return. 2) Even if we can sign Weber & Suter to long-term big deals, is that where this team needs to invest it's limited budget?


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11-19-2010, 11:39 PM
  #53
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[QUOTE=dulzhok;29059572]I don't see anyone suggesting that we should get rid of Suter and Weber. Two options being suggested 1) If Poile doesn't feel like he can sign Weber long term, it'd be in the best interest to trade him for a huge return. 2) Even if we can sign Weber & Suter to long-term big deals, is that where this team needs to invest it's limited budget?[/QUOTE]


Exactly!!! That is what I am saying!

Weber is RFA status and is captain and is the franchise's face!

Suter will be a UFA and is not the face of the franchise!

It just makes so much sense to sign Weber long term and we will have to eventually let Suter go in a trade two years from now because with our self imposed cap, we simply would be retarded to have sooo much money tied up in two defenders!!

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11-20-2010, 12:19 AM
  #54
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[QUOTE=lightning_legwand;29062412]
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I don't see anyone suggesting that we should get rid of Suter and Weber. Two options being suggested 1) If Poile doesn't feel like he can sign Weber long term, it'd be in the best interest to trade him for a huge return. 2) Even if we can sign Weber & Suter to long-term big deals, is that where this team needs to invest it's limited budget?[/QUOTE]


Exactly!!! That is what I am saying!

Weber is RFA status and is captain and is the franchise's face!

Suter will be a UFA and is not the face of the franchise!

It just makes so much sense to sign Weber long term and we will have to eventually let Suter go in a trade two years from now because with our self imposed cap, we simply would be retarded to have sooo much money tied up in two defenders!!
Good point. Not sure how much it matters to you guys (and gals) that Weber is Canadian whereas Suter is American, but if that's not an issue, I'd feel more secure signing Weber long-term as he is RFA and better the bird in the hand than the bush. Once Weber's signed, I'd imagine it'd come with a NTC/NMC, and that'd mean that if the Preds can't afford both Suter and Weber, this all but means that Suter would become trade-bait.

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11-20-2010, 02:55 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by lightning_legwand View Post

Good point. Not sure how much it matters to you guys (and gals) that Weber is Canadian whereas Suter is American, but if that's not an issue, I'd feel more secure signing Weber long-term as he is RFA and better the bird in the hand than the bush. Once Weber's signed, I'd imagine it'd come with a NTC/NMC, and that'd mean that if the Preds can't afford both Suter and Weber, this all but means that Suter would become trade-bait.
Why can't we sign both. If your buying that we can't afford both then this franchise is not in the business of winning just in the business making the fans think they are. The budget needs to go up. Not like the Ranger budget. But if this team doesn't make the playoffs and we trade Weber or Suter you then you might as well trade both of them because we can't afford to keep up and just keep playing the next rookie to come along. Then see how many fans come through the turnstiles. This franchise won't sell out every game until they get a name player either through their system or through trade. Will that guarantee a winner more likely it won't. Weber and Suter are real good but there not a shutdown unit yet and they aren't enough to make unknown fan to notice. That's just the nature of defensive players.

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11-20-2010, 06:50 AM
  #56
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Cigarran stated that we are keeping both Weber and Suter. This whole thread is pointless. Can we move on please?

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11-20-2010, 07:30 AM
  #57
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Our budget is fine. It's right at the midpoint of the allowed salary range. If we can't win with that than either it can't be done or Poile isn't as bright as we think. I think it can be done. Midpoint is an ok spending target. It's less than 20% off the cap for the bigger budget teams. I don't know what those Toronto tools were talking about when saying we needed to be 20 million below the cap to make money when we'll be 10 below the cap and making money with admittedly a small part of that from sharing.

I'm not sure if paying both Weber and Suter is the best way to win, but I do believe there's a very good chance we do it. As glenngineer points out Cigarran has said we will. Poile may decide differently of course. But we don't exactly have a bunch of high end forward talent on the way we'll need to pay.

The guy I'm worried about isn't Shea. If Shea walks for over 7 million then 4 high draft picks sounds great to me. Poile could really make hay with those picks especially with the stability of the current ownership allowing his plans to bear fruit. If no team is willing to pay that much compensation then he fits in our budget at 6.5 and up. 6.5 for Weber and Suter sounds better than 4.5 and 5 for Legwand and Erat....

I'm wondering how much we end up paying Goc, and O'Reilly. O'Reilly is restricted, but if we let him go we only get back a second round pick, most likely, which is poor compensation. Goc will be unrestricted, and after having had his two best years of his career will be in high demand as a 28 year old 2-way centerman. The bidding for Goc could be interesting. And we get nothing if someone overbids.


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11-20-2010, 08:41 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by OpenWheel View Post
I don't know what those Toronto tools were talking about when saying we needed to be 20 million below the cap to make money when we'll be 10 below the cap and making money with admittedly a small part of that from sharing.
Did they really say $20M?? when the cap floor is only $16M below the cap?


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11-20-2010, 09:37 AM
  #59
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When talking about why we couldn't afford Weber, they said something like we need to be 16 million below the cap to make money. 15 or 16. I don't remember the exact number but I think 16 was said. Then someone said "really 20 million". Last year if I recall we were about ten million below the cap and had an EBITDA of 3 million. I assume the higher number was some sort of reference to the millions from revenue sharing shouldn't count as "making money", but I thought you needed to spend to the midpoint to get sharing, so it didn't make sense.


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11-20-2010, 09:44 AM
  #60
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Why all the fear about Weber? Dumont is gone next year, and then bam, we suddenly have over 4 million to add on to Weber's already 3.5+ million dollar salary. This salary escalation has been planned for quite awhile now.

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11-20-2010, 09:49 AM
  #61
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Looking through the thread I don't see much fear about Weber. A few people I guess. But a couple are fans of other teams.

I'm thinking we have no need to pay him over the limit where compensation escalates to 4 first rounders though. Who's going to pay that much compensation along with the salary? And if they want to, I hope Shea enjoys his new team.

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11-20-2010, 09:58 AM
  #62
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Our budget is fine. It's right at the midpoint of the allowed salary range. If we can't win with that than either it can't be done or Poile isn't as bright as we think. I think it can be done. Midpoint is an ok spending target. It's less than 20% off the cap for the bigger budget teams. I don't know what those Toronto tools were talking about when saying we needed to be 20 million below the cap to make money when we'll be 10 below the cap and making money with admittedly a small part of that from sharing.
Hey there, again.

I was just perusing this thread hoping that maybe some other Preds fans would share their views about the questions I'd asked in a previous post when I read this comment regarding some 'Toronto tools'.

If you're referring to the 'analysts' from Sportsnet, those being Nick Kypreos and Bill Watters, it's best to take what they say with a grain of salt, and only in small doses. These two guys don't have much in the way of credibility. If you want to hear quality information out of anyone associated with any of the Toronto sports media outlets, the best hockey analyst is Bob McKenzie. He's the best one for league-wide information, while Darren Dreger is one of the best for Leafs-related information. Drager is a cousin of Leafs' Assistant GM Dave Nonis, which seems to give him an inside line to all things Leafs.

I hope this information proves helpful to all of you.

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11-20-2010, 10:01 AM
  #63
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Yeah, it was just those analysts you mentioned. I think it was them, between periods of the game. I don't label the rest of the Toronto hockey universe that way. Heh-heh. I don't even know those ones I called tools, just that they sounded that way when discussing Weber and our budget as they seemed to not know the numbers or the situation.

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11-20-2010, 10:57 AM
  #64
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Why all the fear about Weber? Dumont is gone next year, and then bam, we suddenly have over 4 million to add on to Weber's already 3.5+ million dollar salary. This salary escalation has been planned for quite awhile now.
Dumont has another year on his contract.

Sure, in 2 years Sullivan and Dumont are likely gone which will free up money to resign Suter/Weber (if they want to resign). But re-signing them only maintains the status quo. This team has yet to get out of the 46th percentile. We need money to improve this team up front, and defensemen beyond Weber/Stuer. I don't think the expiration of the Sullivan and Dumont contracts does anything to make us a better hockey team.

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11-20-2010, 11:23 AM
  #65
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Yeah, it was just those analysts you mentioned. I think it was them, between periods of the game. I don't label the rest of the Toronto hockey universe that way. Heh-heh. I don't even know those ones I called tools, just that they sounded that way when discussing Weber and our budget as they seemed to not know the numbers or the situation.
Well, in that case, no worries then. lol

Many members of Leaf Nation don't really like Kypreos and Watters. Some feel that Kypreos took a few too many shots to the head during his playing days, and it would seem that the majority just want Watters to retire, since he's viewed as nothing more than a senile old man who has pretty much lost touch with the hockey world.

So, it doesn't really surprise me that they're not viewed in a good light outside of the Toronto media crap-storm that Leaf fans like myself end up having to deal with on a regular basis.

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11-20-2010, 12:20 PM
  #66
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Dumont has another year on his contract.

Sure, in 2 years Sullivan and Dumont are likely gone which will free up money to resign Suter/Weber (if they want to resign). But re-signing them only maintains the status quo. This team has yet to get out of the 46th percentile. We need money to improve this team up front, and defensemen beyond Weber/Stuer. I don't think the expiration of the Sullivan and Dumont contracts does anything to make us a better hockey team.
I didn't say it makes us a better hockey team, it does allow Suter and Weber's salary to escalate appropriately.

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11-20-2010, 12:32 PM
  #67
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[QUOTE=roseyc;29064136]
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Why can't we sign both. If your buying that we can't afford both then this franchise is not in the business of winning just in the business making the fans think they are. The budget needs to go up. Not like the Ranger budget. But if this team doesn't make the playoffs and we trade Weber or Suter you then you might as well trade both of them because we can't afford to keep up and just keep playing the next rookie to come along. Then see how many fans come through the turnstiles. This franchise won't sell out every game until they get a name player either through their system or through trade. Will that guarantee a winner more likely it won't. Weber and Suter are real good but there not a shutdown unit yet and they aren't enough to make unknown fan to notice. That's just the nature of defensive players.
Oh I think you can, and Cigarran has stated he intends to. The question is two-fold, first, what if it doesn't make sense to? With the cap (both league and internal), every penny you spend in one area is a penny you don't spend elsewhere. Yes, Dumont and Sullivan are leaving, but Goc and O'Reilly will need raises in addition to Suter and Weber with Rinne coming down the road, and, I also feel that to be a contender, Nashville can't just give the Dumont and Sullivan cash to Suter and Weber and then bring in minimum-wagers to fill those forward slots.

With that in mind, if it makes sense to re-balance the team, with one, not two, #1 defensemen, and then a cheaper #2 to replace Suter/Weber, and more money going to the forwards, then which of Suter/Weber makes sense to sacrifice?

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11-20-2010, 03:07 PM
  #68
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[QUOTE=MarkMM;29067613]
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~snip~
With that in mind, if it makes sense to re-balance the team, with one, not two, #1 defensemen, and then a cheaper #2 to replace Suter/Weber, and more money going to the forwards, then which of Suter/Weber makes sense to sacrifice?
Assuming you're gonna' sacrifice one - and I'm not sure I'm in favor of that - you let Suter go, assuming you think any of the guys we have in the pipeline are potential first pair or #3 guys. We don't have another Weber-type coming, but we have a few guys who's game is more like Suter's. If you don't believe we have anyone better than a 2nd or 3rd pair, you let Weber go, cause while Suter doesn't bring Shea's edge or physicality, he brings a better all-around managing-the-team-on-the-ice game.

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11-20-2010, 04:13 PM
  #69
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I just don't think the team can afford to let go of either Weber or Suter for a few reasons.

1. We're not a better hockey team if either of them go unless we get something in a trade that either replaces one of them at a lesser cost but not talent wise or we get a true elite forward in return.

2. What does it say to the fan base that we draft, develop and then let go our home grown talent. At some point, the ownership is going to have to put their money where there mouth is and keep these great young talents.

3. If we're ever going to compete for a title, you need at least 2, if not 3 top defensemen to go far in the playoffs. Top talent defensemen are essential for deep playoff runs.

4. Last but not least, how do you pick between a Weber and a Suter if you have to pick one to keep? If you trade Weber at this deadline, there is still no guarantee Suter re-signs. Then you lose the possibility of losing both. If you choose Weber, Suter may want the same type of money and maybe the owners/Poile decide to say no to that.

While it's the name on the front of the jersey that's important to fans, it's also the names on the back that put fans in the stands. Weber is now the face of the franchise. We give him the captaincy only to trade or lose him within a year? That's not sending a good message.

If we trade one or both, we better get elite players in return. How often does that happen when you trade elite players? Very rarely. We might get good players in return but will be get game breakers back and if we do, they're going to require big salaries as well.

I think we see how valuable both are to the success of this team on and off the ice. Losing either or both could have dire consequences. See what happened with Suter out recently and Weber having to play with Bouillon? Not sure that's what we want long term. Even if Blum and Josi pan out, will they reach Suter level? I think you keep both, draft well and replace the second and third pairing guys and hope they keep panning out.

I will say this. if Josi and Blum pan out to be anything that we think they will, we will have a top 4 to be rivaled for years to come. If we lose Weber and/or Suter, we better hope that Josi and Blum can handle being our top pair. Scary to think about that proposition to be quite honest.

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11-20-2010, 09:16 PM
  #70
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I just don't think the team can afford to let go of either Weber or Suter for a few reasons.

1. We're not a better hockey team if either of them go unless we get something in a trade that either replaces one of them at a lesser cost but not talent wise or we get a true elite forward in return.

2. What does it say to the fan base that we draft, develop and then let go our home grown talent. At some point, the ownership is going to have to put their money where there mouth is and keep these great young talents.

3. If we're ever going to compete for a title, you need at least 2, if not 3 top defensemen to go far in the playoffs. Top talent defensemen are essential for deep playoff runs.

4. Last but not least, how do you pick between a Weber and a Suter if you have to pick one to keep? If you trade Weber at this deadline, there is still no guarantee Suter re-signs. Then you lose the possibility of losing both. If you choose Weber, Suter may want the same type of money and maybe the owners/Poile decide to say no to that.

While it's the name on the front of the jersey that's important to fans, it's also the names on the back that put fans in the stands. Weber is now the face of the franchise. We give him the captaincy only to trade or lose him within a year? That's not sending a good message.
If we trade one or both, we better get elite players in return. How often does that happen when you trade elite players? Very rarely. We might get good players in return but will be get game breakers back and if we do, they're going to require big salaries as well.

I think we see how valuable both are to the success of this team on and off the ice. Losing either or both could have dire consequences. See what happened with Suter out recently and Weber having to play with Bouillon? Not sure that's what we want long term. Even if Blum and Josi pan out, will they reach Suter level? I think you keep both, draft well and replace the second and third pairing guys and hope they keep panning out.

I will say this. if Josi and Blum pan out to be anything that we think they will, we will have a top 4 to be rivaled for years to come. If we lose Weber and/or Suter, we better hope that Josi and Blum can handle being our top pair. Scary to think about that proposition to be quite honest.

Not only do we have Blum and Josi with HUGE potential, but we also have Ryan Ellis! I think he is going to be something very special once he gets in the NHL. I think if we have to let go of Suter (because Weber is the face of the franchise), and we can get an elite game breaking forward, that would be great!! We have soo much talent coming up for defense.

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11-20-2010, 09:44 PM
  #71
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I don't know what "face of the franchise" means exactly, but decisions should only be made in regards to having a team that can win the playoffs.

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11-20-2010, 09:50 PM
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Not only do we have Blum and Josi with HUGE potential, but we also have Ryan Ellis! We have soo much talent coming up for defense.
Time will tell. The same was also said when we had Franson, Klein, Parent, and Sulzer waiting in the wings.

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11-20-2010, 10:20 PM
  #73
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I just don't see any smart GM throwing down 8+Mil of cap space a year plus 4 1st round pick for Shea. In the end I think we'll resign him (even if we match an offersheet).

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11-20-2010, 11:44 PM
  #74
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If it came down between Suter or Weber and we could only sign one I'd go Suter.


Yes I went there.
totally agree

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11-21-2010, 07:53 AM
  #75
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We don't know for sure what our payroll will be like two years from now. While I wouldn't be surprised to see things cool off a bit, you'd have to think that revenues are improving, and ownership has pledged to invest every dime back into the team. I think the new front office guys "get it," and I expect to see continued improvement in attendance. We keep talking about small sample size, but we've already almost equalled our sellout total for all of last season...through seven games. I expect the next two to be pretty well attended as well(16K+ for the Blues on Thanksgiving-Eve, sellout for Saturday vs NYR)

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