I meant what I meant. The players we have in the core and under long term and NTC contracts are at their peak and what you see is what you get. That might not be enough to win it all. We are still capable of winning, but the window is closing with this group when you compare this team to LA for instance.
Don't misunderstand the point. I am talking about skill sets and development. Can we win it all this year? Sure ... if we fix the obvious defensive weakness and the team re-discovers how to play with a purpose, we can win this year.
This team's inconsistency in playing a full hard 60 minutes has plagued them before, but for whatever reason and maybe it's Nabokov moving on, this year's team looks the most disjointed. It's not just a weaker defense that troubles me, it's the overall lack of intensity at times... look no further than last night late in the game against the Avs.
I meant what I meant. The players we have in the core and under long term and NTC contracts are at their peak and what you see is what you get. That might not be enough to win it all. We are still capable of winning, but the window is closing with this group when you compare this team to LA for instance.
Don't misunderstand the point. I am talking about skill sets and development. Can we win it all this year? Sure ... if we fix the obvious defensive weakness and the team re-discovers how to play with a purpose, we can win this year.
Look at history on core groups of forwards. The trend is towards younger offensive groups winning the cup. Off the top of my head, the last two older groups to win were Carolina and Detroit (on its cup before last). Average age over 30 is not a good sign for the top 3. Older dmen are definitely acceptable. The easy explanation is that speed is more a part of the game as played by top teams today.
Look at history on core groups of forwards. The trend is towards younger offensive groups winning the cup. Off the top of my head, the last two older groups to win were Carolina and Detroit (on its cup before last). Average age over 30 is not a good sign for the top 3. Older dmen are definitely acceptable. The easy explanation is that speed is more a part of the game as played by top teams today.
Thank you. All I said after last night's game was "speed kills."
I don't fault the Sharks so much for last night's loss. The Av's were significantly faster than us out there... it was only a matter of time. It's why they gave us such fits last year in the PO's.
It isn't this Shark's team fault for not being fast. It's management for not assembling a team that meets the overall criteria/requirements for what it takes to win in the NHL today.
I don't see this deal happening soon. I think DW will wait until the deadline and overpay for a rental he hopes he can re-sign. Where if the player re-signs, it's a good deal, if he doesn't Sharks got screwed [see:Campbell]
Something structured around Seto for Brent Burns would be amazing but I have a feeling the Sharks would have to add a considerable amount to that package, even beyond making the salaries work.
San Jose is limited to what they can acquire because of the cap. Beauchemin is as good as it could get for help on the D. Leaf fans have a penchant for exaggerating both the good and bad Beauchemin has not been bad at all. There's a reason why Beauchemin was part of the Canadian Olympic orientation camp and on Canada's WCT this past spring.
If San Jose is in win now mode and doesn't want to give up Clowe, Coulture or Pavleski they will be hard pressed to find a better option with experience and level of play that Beauchemin would provide for Seto.
If there is a better option out there all the power to make that happen I just don't see it under the cap restraints and an obvious of not touching the names above for a younger and or higher level player.
This trade makes sense for both teams if San Jose is committed to look short term for the better of the team because Beauchemin would help fill a big need a lot more on D than what Seto would provide playing on the 3rd line.
Then the key point here is that your expectations are unrealistically high. And anyone else's expectations who expect Seto to be a consistent and significant scoring threat.
He's 23, in his 3rd season, played a good chunk of last season injured or recovering from injury, and has obviously been working on other aspects of his game to be a more all-around player. Just as Patty struggled for years for any sort of consistency, and Clowe had his issues, as did JT, Seto will have his slumps and his down times. And even if he's not scoring right now, he is doing everything else a 3rd-liner is expected to do. And he's being paid like a 3rd-liner.
So adjust your expectations one an all. If his consistency improves, he'll be back to being a 2nd-liner. If it doesn't he'll get paid like a 3rd-liner again next year and he'll stay on the 3rd line until he develops more. Having Seto as a 3rd-liner is hardly a terrible proposition.
San Jose is limited to what they can acquire because of the cap. Beauchemin is as good as it could get for help on the D. Leaf fans have a penchant for exaggerating both the good and bad Beauchemin has not been bad at all. There's a reason why Beauchemin was part of the Canadian Olympic orientation camp and on Canada's WCT this past spring.
If San Jose is in win now mode and doesn't want to give up Clowe, Coulture or Pavleski they will be hard pressed to find a better option with experience and level of play that Beauchemin would provide for Seto.
If there is a better option out there all the power to make that happen I just don't see it under the cap restraints and an obvious of not touching the names above for a younger and or higher level player.
This trade makes sense for both teams if San Jose is committed to look short term for the better of the team because Beauchemin would help fill a big need a lot more on D than what Seto would provide playing on the 3rd line.
I'd rather see if we could get Gilbert out of Edmonton (as JPavs suggested in the trade board). His contract would be slightly harder to fit at $4 mil instead of Beauch's $3.8. But he's also a bit younger, can be more physical than Beauch, and signed longer-term. From the games I've seen him playing against the Sharks over the last couple of years I don't think he's as bad as he's playing right now. I like that he's got decent size and is a RH shot as well. He's not as good defensively as Beauchamin right now, but I think he brings more offensive upside.
What do SJEasy, Max, or any of the others who watch more Edmonton games than me think of him. Would he be a decent option?
I'd rather see if we could get Gilbert out of Edmonton (as JPavs suggested in the trade board). His contract would be slightly harder to fit at $4 mil instead of Beauch's $3.8. But he's also a bit younger, can be more physical than Beauch, and signed longer-term. From the games I've seen him playing against the Sharks over the last couple of years I don't think he's as bad as he's playing right now. I like that he's got decent size and is a RH shot as well. He's not as good defensively as Beauchamin right now, but I think he brings more offensive upside.
What do SJEasy, Max, or any of the others who watch more Edmonton games than me think of him. Would he be a decent option?
Before Edmonton went into a tailspin a couple of years ago his defense was decent. He probably needs a mentoring partner. He is a solid second unit PP guy. He does have a connection with the Sharks, Pavelski. They both were on the Wisconsin championship team (as were Skille, Burish, Drewiske, Brian Elliott and Robbie Earl.)
I'd rather see if we could get Gilbert out of Edmonton (as JPavs suggested in the trade board). His contract would be slightly harder to fit at $4 mil instead of Beauch's $3.8. But he's also a bit younger, can be more physical than Beauch, and signed longer-term. From the games I've seen him playing against the Sharks over the last couple of years I don't think he's as bad as he's playing right now. I like that he's got decent size and is a RH shot as well. He's not as good defensively as Beauchamin right now, but I think he brings more offensive upside.
What do SJEasy, Max, or any of the others who watch more Edmonton games than me think of him. Would he be a decent option?
My issue with Tom Gilbert is that he has no physical presence on the ice. You mentioned his size as a plus, and I would agree if he ever actually used it. Gilbert is an outstanding shot blocker and is not afraid of giving up his body in that regard, but he completely lacks a physical game. He is definitely better than the way he's playing, though, and maybe a change of scenery could help him regain the form he had in 2007-08 and 2008-09. Gilbert needs a veteran defense partner that can take the pressure off him. He was at his best in Edmonton when he played with Steve Staios, who took care of the physical stuff.
Doug Wilson wouldn't even consider considering dealing Setoguchi for Beauchemin. Yeah, you read that right. That rumor is just a bunch of BS that came around because two teams that are in dire need of something the other has. The only way Setoguchi is dealt is if an equally-regarded young defenseman comes back in return.
Last edited by Blades of Glory: 11-20-2010 at 06:53 AM.
My issue with Tom Gilbert is that he has no physical presence on the ice. You mentioned his size as a plus, and I would agree if he ever actually used it. Gilbert is an outstanding shot blocker and is not afraid of giving up his body in that regard, but he completely lacks a physical game. He is definitely better than the way he's playing, though, and maybe a change of scenery could help him regain the form he had in 2007-08 and 2008-09. Gilbert needs a veteran defense partner that can take the pressure off him. He was at his best in Edmonton when he played with Steve Staios, who took care of the physical stuff.
From the limited games I've seen, Gilbert reminded me of Rathje the way he used his size (just not as good). He doesn't hit much or play an edgier physical game (although I seem to remember him getting "chippy" a few times), but he does use his size to block out the opposition. As long as he's not going to get manhandled like Vlasic sometimes is by larger forwards, I'm fine with having a guy who is not that physical. We have Murray, Moore, Joslin, Petrecki, and at least a few more guys on the team or in the dev group who will play a physical game when necessary. We need a guy with decent mobility, who can handle the puck, who can pass, who can shoot, and who can maybe run the 2nd PP unit without being too much of a defensive liability. Those are things Gilbert can do.
Again, he's not the best option I would want, but he may be more available than some of the other options.
It would be sad to see Devin let go, a player doesn't score 30+ goals in the NHL by accident. Somehow he has this idea now that all he can do is just skate fast and hit. He needs a good coach to get him back on track.
This has been brought up around Pgh water coolers lately. Goligoski for Seto. They save the same cap hit and Gogo has a year left after this year. We need a good winger and you need a good off/defenseman. They are around the same age.. How interested would sharks fans be of this deal.
This has been brought up around Pgh water coolers lately. Goligoski for Seto. They save the same cap hit and Gogo has a year left after this year. We need a good winger and you need a good off/defenseman. They are around the same age.. How interested would sharks fans be of this deal.
Personally, not at all. I like Gogo, but I think the Sharks need Seto more than they need an offensive d-man. The only thing I consider moving Seto for is a very high caliber top-pairing 2-way d-man. Gogo is good, but he's not that. I'm probably in the minority though.
Personally, not at all. I like Gogo, but I think the Sharks need Seto more than they need an offensive d-man. The only thing I consider moving Seto for is a very high caliber top-pairing 2-way d-man. Gogo is good, but he's not that. I'm probably in the minority though.
I think the trade is fair, and I think this season is kind of lost already anyway. I might make the trade as a setup for next season though. Point is, Gogo isn't going to make this team a cup contender, so I'd pretty much 'meh' about it.
Doug Wilson wouldn't even consider considering dealing Setoguchi for Beauchemin. Yeah, you read that right. That rumor is just a bunch of BS that came around because two teams that are in dire need of something the other has. The only way Setoguchi is dealt is if an equally-regarded young defenseman comes back in return.
Totally agree here. If we are to work a deal with the Leafs for Seto, only two should even be considered from the D; Schenn or Gunnarsson. Both solid young d men which would be a really good return for the likes of Seto., at this time that is. But, with the current form of Seto, either of these two might not be readily available if the deal is around Seto alone.
Unfortunately, as time goes on, and the days of 30+ goals alongside big Joe continues to become farther into the past, we are all witnessing the huge drop in value of Seto. D.W. will have to move soon or at this pace, his value may hit the level of Brett Lebda. (only being a little sarcastic here to the very low level of play of Seto for the past while but, you never know. Could be spot on for real).
Last edited by 19sharks19: 11-21-2010 at 02:35 PM.
Totally agree here. If we are to work a deal with the Leafs for Seto, only two should even be considered from the D; Schenn or Gunnarsson. Both solid young d men which would be a really good return for the likes of Seto., at this time that is. But, with the current form of Seto, either of these two might not be readily available if the deal is around Seto alone.
Unfortunately, as time goes on, and the days of 30+ goals alongside big Joe continues to become farther into the past, we are all witnessing the huge drop in value of Seto. D.W. will have to move soon or at this pace, his value may hit the level of Brett Lebda. (only being a little sarcastic here to the very low level of play of Seto for the past while but, you never know. Could be spot on for real).
lol, Schenn is untouchable, you would need to give Marleau for that
We have soooo many defencemen. I wouldn't mind trading Gunnarson or Beauchemin for Setoguchi or Clowe or Pavelski. There might be other prospects involved but right now we have too many defencemen and need offence. I think the Sharks have the opposite problem.
lol, Schenn is untouchable, you would need to give Marleau for that
We have soooo many defencemen. I wouldn't mind trading Gunnarson or Beauchemin for Setoguchi or Clowe or Pavelski. There might be other prospects involved but right now we have too many defencemen and need offence. I think the Sharks have the opposite problem.
lol Pavelski is untouchable. i doubt clowe is traded as well... MAYBE seto
Most likely picks/prospects
lol, Schenn is untouchable, you would need to give Marleau for that
We have soooo many defencemen. I wouldn't mind trading Gunnarson or Beauchemin for Setoguchi or Clowe or Pavelski. There might be other prospects involved but right now we have too many defencemen and need offence. I think the Sharks have the opposite problem.
In what alternate reality do you live in that makes you believe Luke Schenn is worth Patrick Marleau? And what exactly has Schenn done that supposedly gives him more trade value than Setoguchi? He may be having a better season than Setoguchi so far, but no one judges a player based on a 19 game season. They are pretty even in terms of trade value, even if they would never be traded for each other.
In what alternate reality do you live in that makes you believe Luke Schenn is worth Patrick Marleau? And what exactly has Schenn done that supposedly gives him more trade value than Setoguchi? He may be having a better season than Setoguchi so far, but no one judges a player based on a 19 game season. They are pretty even in terms of trade value, even if they would never be traded for each other.
I agree that Schenn is not quite worth Marleau. My only disagreement would be
Schenn's value to Tor>>> Seto's Value to us
I agree that Schenn is not quite worth Marleau. My only disagreement would be
Schenn's value to Tor>>> Seto's Value to us
Schenn isn't even close to Marleau value wise. He's not even very good right now. You are comparing a 40+ goal scoring two-way forward in his prime with a young struggling one-way defensemen.
Doug Wilson would be shot in the street if he did that.
