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The Kids are being developed the right way..

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Old
11-21-2010, 07:23 AM
  #1
msv957
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The Kids are being developed the right way..

You have to love the way the Rangers management and coaches have been developing the kids the past few years. It is being done the right way. There is no 18 year old kid fresh from the draft being thrown into the wolves to learn on their own. Even MDZ had at least (1) year of development before he was in the NHL. Once MDZ was in the NHL he had plenty of veteran leadership to rely on.

The kids when they are brought up have had some real good veteran leadership to learn from in the locker room how things are done in the NHL.. This team has had veterans such as Jagr, Shannahan, Drury, Gaborik, Nylander, Propsal and I am sure there are others I am not mentioning.

Dubinsky learned from Shanny and Jagr
Callahan the same
AA has learned from players like Gaborik, Prospal, Drury, Rozy and etc
Stepan same..

These young players were not thrown into the fire and not relied on to carry this franchise. I look at the Isles situation with Tavares, Bailey, Okposo and etc and it is a disaster.. LOL..... The weight of the world is on their shoulders and this disaster probably will ruin their development.

Way to go Slats and crew for doing a semi rebuild while staying competitive with some key veterans to show the kids how it is done in the NHL..

Gettng a top 5 pick probably means nothing if the top 5 pick is thrown into the fire with other kids and told to be the "man" right away... The only exeption maybe be Crosby or an Ovechkin like player.. However, Crosby did have Lemieux and Ovechkin started in the NHL at age 20 due to the lock out season.

I would rather have a player like Dubinsky/Stepan who are developed the right away surrounded by some solid key veteran NHL players where these kids are not relied on immediately. These kids confidence will then be able to soar in the NHL and not ruined.

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11-21-2010, 08:35 AM
  #2
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I beg to differ.

You say MDZ was given another year of development, but he went back to his junior team and never played in the AHL, which is an important step in the development of a young player that may not be ready for prime time....

See Derek Stepan, he comes in straight from college...

Much like Matt Gilroy, although alot older, straight from college...


While I agree that a few years ago we were taking our time and developing players right, unfortunately I think the organization realizes there is a shelf life on their franchise goalies and they are trying to get as many peices in place as fast as possible now.

I'm not saying that its a terrible thing, but anyone who watches MDZ, Gilroy and Stepan can probably admit they would benefit by some AHL time, if for no other reason to gain confidence and strength.

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11-21-2010, 09:03 AM
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In hindsight, I also would have preferred to see MDZ take a season in the A to learn, but his age and skill level is a problem in that sense, since he can't go into the A yet and is already too good for juniors.

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11-21-2010, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I beg to differ.

You say MDZ was given another year of development, but he went back to his junior team and never played in the AHL, which is an important step in the development of a young player that may not be ready for prime time....

See Derek Stepan, he comes in straight from college...

Much like Matt Gilroy, although alot older, straight from college...


While I agree that a few years ago we were taking our time and developing players right, unfortunately I think the organization realizes there is a shelf life on their franchise goalies and they are trying to get as many peices in place as fast as possible now.

I'm not saying that its a terrible thing, but anyone who watches MDZ, Gilroy and Stepan can probably admit they would benefit by some AHL time, if for no other reason to gain confidence and strength.
Every single guy you just mentioned played over their heads in training camp and earned their spot. I find it amazaing you point to Stepan yet the whole board knew he was ready to at least start the season up here same with Gilroy and MDZ last year. Now because they just happen to be playing bad it was always a bad decision? (Altho step has been great recently) Gilroy spent half the season in A as it is. Didn't do much. We didn't force MZA, Vtank, McD to stay up. We didn't force Sauer or Sangs up. We've got a prospect in kundratek who is being brought alone slowly and is reportedly playing like our best D-man in A. I'm not sure if you're ignoring the fact that the guys earned their spots or if you just forgot...

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11-21-2010, 11:06 AM
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Yay! It only took a decade to figure out what the rest of the league's competently run teams have known for years! Celebrate!

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11-21-2010, 01:05 PM
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I think Gilroy is starting to turn it around. His offense is starting to catch up with his defense. He's been rather solid in his own zone, aside from 1 or 2 miscues from being played out of position. He's got 3 points in last 5 games, and seems to be a little more comfortable rushing the puck up ice.

Mike Sauer, on the other hand has been quite the revelation for me. After last years training camp, I didn't think he'd ever crack the roster in a Ranger uniform. I'm quite impressed, and he's looked like a veteran at times. He's leading the team with a plus 7.

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11-21-2010, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Blazephr View Post
I think Gilroy is starting to turn it around. His offense is starting to catch up with his defense. He's been rather solid in his own zone, aside from 1 or 2 miscues from being played out of position. He's got 3 points in last 5 games, and seems to be a little more comfortable rushing the puck up ice.

Mike Sauer, on the other hand has been quite the revelation for me. After last years training camp, I didn't think he'd ever crack the roster in a Ranger uniform. I'm quite impressed, and he's looked like a veteran at times. He's leading the team with a plus 7.
I've been quite surprised with Gilroy's performance the past few games.

That said, he looks more like a winger than a d-man

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11-21-2010, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
Every single guy you just mentioned played over their heads in training camp and earned their spot. I find it amazaing you point to Stepan yet the whole board knew he was ready to at least start the season up here same with Gilroy and MDZ last year. Now because they just happen to be playing bad it was always a bad decision? (Altho step has been great recently) Gilroy spent half the season in A as it is. Didn't do much. We didn't force MZA, Vtank, McD to stay up. We didn't force Sauer or Sangs up. We've got a prospect in kundratek who is being brought alone slowly and is reportedly playing like our best D-man in A. I'm not sure if you're ignoring the fact that the guys earned their spots or if you just forgot...
You misunderstand what I'm saying. I don't think it was a bad decision to play them, and I understand that its so much easier to say with hindsight. I DO NOT think any mistake was made with these guys, I just think that if the organization was in no rush to be competitive, some time in Hartford would benefit ANY prospect. The weakness of our roster allowed these guys to earn spots out of camp. Stepan and Del Zotto are two of my favorite Rangers, I think they have performed admirably for their age. My love for them will not make me blind to the fact that they could both use improvement that would probably be easier learned at the A level.

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Old
11-21-2010, 05:03 PM
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Wrong thread sorry folks

I guess to add to the topic...

It's nice looking at the roster and seeing a big handful of the guys on the team that came through our system (10 if I counted correctly)

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11-21-2010, 05:47 PM
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IMO you got to live with some of the mistakes that a player like MDZ makes. Hands down he's our best offensive defenseman. His instincts/creativity are superior to any of the other d-men currently in the organization. Though it might not seem like it he's better positionally and defensively this year than last year. There's just more on his plate--more time on ice--more penalty killing. Even with all that he's a long way from his peak years. One can say he might have been better if he'd gone to Hartford--for a year, or two, or three. Then again--maybe not. It didn't seem to help Sanguinetti a hell of a lot. Like with Dubinsky and Callahan it may be a few years before he really shows his stuff. In the meantime he's good enough. He needs to grow still...but patience.

All in all this has been a good year for the guys we've been developing particularly Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, Girardi and Staal. Adding Prust helps as well. The Rangers are younger and better than last year. The younger guys above are beginning to take over the leadership of the team. It's a really good sign for the next few years.

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11-21-2010, 07:05 PM
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Learning while winning, is a lot better then learning while losing...think about the islanders they're learning a loser mentality while guys on the Rangers learn a winners mentality. This is something that Messier talked about when he was on the Rangers, learning while learning to win.....it's important....and having fun....hard to have fun when you're losing.

I don't know why some keep talking about trading prospects and picks for rentals...do they not understand how we got here?

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11-21-2010, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Learning while winning, is a lot better then learning while losing...think about the islanders they're learning a loser mentality while guys on the Rangers learn a winners mentality. This is something that Messier talked about when he was on the Rangers, learning while learning to win.....it's important....and having fun....hard to have fun when you're losing.
Really, Really good point.. learning while winning has to be a whole lot easier and better for the kids than learning while losing..

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11-22-2010, 12:40 AM
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donpaulo
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I am not sure I agree with this sentiment exactly

but when making executive decisions you make the call and hope to be right more than wrong

As far as "developing" kids I would have preferred to see Sanguinetti get the slot given to MDZ last year. Hindsight being 20-20 and NYR missing the playoffs I think del Zotto could have used a season in the AHL. But thats life and as I just said, the pres makes the call we get to question them after the decision is made. MDZ looked absolutely HORRIBLE against the avalanche. -4 in one period. Is that a rangers record ? Yes he rebounded against the Wild, but consistency is the game right ? Lets ask the extremely talented Christensen about consistency...

I think NY still has a lot to learn about "development" and should seriously consider copying the Red Wings current system or hiring someone away who can implement it. Whatever Detroit is doing they are doing the right way. NY could stand to improve more in that area.

I still feel that Stepan was mishandled until he got the chance to play with Gaborik over the last few games. DS needs to get quality ice time in the NHL or the AHL. Not bench time, but thats from another thread.

Sauer has been a pleasant surprise and I think Gilroy (not developed by NY) have improved their play mostly because Rozi is out. Lets see what happens when he comes back and it becomes a numbers game again.

as far as winning/losing goes I think the best way to look at the two would be to compare Edmonton and say Colorado or Philly or Detroit. The Oil has fallen on hard times went full bore youth and there really hasn't been any development of those kids. Sam Gagner, Cogliano, Pouliot have all seemed to stagnate.

Detroits picks take years to make the team. You have to go back to 2006 just to find one guy who is on the current team.

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11-22-2010, 04:40 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donpaulo View Post
I am not sure I agree with this sentiment exactly

but when making executive decisions you make the call and hope to be right more than wrong

As far as "developing" kids I would have preferred to see Sanguinetti get the slot given to MDZ last year. Hindsight being 20-20 and NYR missing the playoffs I think del Zotto could have used a season in the AHL. But thats life and as I just said, the pres makes the call we get to question them after the decision is made. MDZ looked absolutely HORRIBLE against the avalanche. -4 in one period. Is that a rangers record ? Yes he rebounded against the Wild, but consistency is the game right ? Lets ask the extremely talented Christensen about consistency...

I think NY still has a lot to learn about "development" and should seriously consider copying the Red Wings current system or hiring someone away who can implement it. Whatever Detroit is doing they are doing the right way. NY could stand to improve more in that area.

I still feel that Stepan was mishandled until he got the chance to play with Gaborik over the last few games. DS needs to get quality ice time in the NHL or the AHL. Not bench time, but thats from another thread.

Sauer has been a pleasant surprise and I think Gilroy (not developed by NY) have improved their play mostly because Rozi is out. Lets see what happens when he comes back and it becomes a numbers game again.

as far as winning/losing goes I think the best way to look at the two would be to compare Edmonton and say Colorado or Philly or Detroit. The Oil has fallen on hard times went full bore youth and there really hasn't been any development of those kids. Sam Gagner, Cogliano, Pouliot have all seemed to stagnate.

Detroits picks take years to make the team. You have to go back to 2006 just to find one guy who is on the current team.
Sanguinetti got outplayed by a wide margin by MDZ in the 2009 training camp. So you'd have given the job to him over MDZ? The Rangers needed a pwp qb--something that Rozsival has never really been able to handle. Jagr and Nylander were more the guys making plays after the lockout. Sanguinetti even in Carolina still hasn't made it to the NHL and his apprenticeship in the AHL may have made him a much more cautious offensive minded D. The Rangers AHL team reflects the mindset of Gernander who was always a defensive minded forward. Even when they were a good AHL team the games tended to be low scoring. I think this has hurt more creative players like Sanguinetti. A cautious approach isn't always the best. Sometimes you have to throw them in the deep end. In any case there are other young d-men around the league Del Zotto's age who have had to struggle in their own end as well. I've seen Myers on two occasions this year unpressured tripping over his own feet both times leading to goals for the other team. **** happens when they're that young--got to live with it.

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11-22-2010, 04:54 AM
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Wait, people are complaining about Sanguinetti not making it? Still?

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11-22-2010, 01:04 PM
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Wait, people are complaining about Sanguinetti not making it? Still?
Yep.

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11-22-2010, 01:58 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donpaulo View Post
I am not sure I agree with this sentiment exactly

but when making executive decisions you make the call and hope to be right more than wrong

As far as "developing" kids I would have preferred to see Sanguinetti get the slot given to MDZ last year. Hindsight being 20-20 and NYR missing the playoffs I think del Zotto could have used a season in the AHL. But thats life and as I just said, the pres makes the call we get to question them after the decision is made. MDZ looked absolutely HORRIBLE against the avalanche. -4 in one period. Is that a rangers record ? Yes he rebounded against the Wild, but consistency is the game right ? Lets ask the extremely talented Christensen about consistency...

I think NY still has a lot to learn about "development" and should seriously consider copying the Red Wings current system or hiring someone away who can implement it. Whatever Detroit is doing they are doing the right way. NY could stand to improve more in that area.

I still feel that Stepan was mishandled until he got the chance to play with Gaborik over the last few games. DS needs to get quality ice time in the NHL or the AHL. Not bench time, but thats from another thread.

Sauer has been a pleasant surprise and I think Gilroy (not developed by NY) have improved their play mostly because Rozi is out. Lets see what happens when he comes back and it becomes a numbers game again.

as far as winning/losing goes I think the best way to look at the two would be to compare Edmonton and say Colorado or Philly or Detroit. The Oil has fallen on hard times went full bore youth and there really hasn't been any development of those kids. Sam Gagner, Cogliano, Pouliot have all seemed to stagnate.

Detroits picks take years to make the team. You have to go back to 2006 just to find one guy who is on the current team.


But you're conveniently leaving out the fact that Sangs was outplayed by MDZ and MDZ had a monster first month. He beat out competition not just for a spot but vets for playing time as a result of the fact he was ready at that time. He has regressed since. He could maybe benefit from some A time.

Sometimes the best move is to give a prospect a taste if they show they can handle it but sometimes it has to be spoon fed which we aren't doing with MDZ. If you think that's the error in development I wouldn't argue with you but to indicate he should have been sent to the A and Sangs deserved that spot is wrong.

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Old
11-22-2010, 02:01 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
You misunderstand what I'm saying. I don't think it was a bad decision to play them, and I understand that its so much easier to say with hindsight. I DO NOT think any mistake was made with these guys, I just think that if the organization was in no rush to be competitive, some time in Hartford would benefit ANY prospect. The weakness of our roster allowed these guys to earn spots out of camp. Stepan and Del Zotto are two of my favorite Rangers, I think they have performed admirably for their age. My love for them will not make me blind to the fact that they could both use improvement that would probably be easier learned at the A level.


You included Gilroy in with MDZ and Step as guys who never played in A which made it hard for me to decipher what you meant. If Step or MDZ need some A time I wouldn't argue with that.

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11-22-2010, 05:36 PM
  #19
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Some credit has to go to Renney and Torts.

Renney had Dubinksy centering a top line during the playoffs.

Renney had Callahan playing with Shanahan and Avery, which was our best line late in 2007

Torts let Anisimov play some time with Gaborik last season. He basically handed the power play to Del Zotto.


All these examples are reasons why you must give your young guys a chance in a big spot -- even if its for just a shift -- just so they can have something to either build towards or use as motivation.


I'm not saying it always works. The players sometimes just arent good enough. But you can't say anything but good things about how Sather, Clark and the staff have cultivated the farm system to produce the best young players the organization has seen since the late 1980s.

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Old
11-22-2010, 05:42 PM
  #20
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Yay! It only took a decade to figure out what the rest of the league's competently run teams have known for years! Celebrate!
yeah we should be pissed right? ...wait what? My generic HF-snark-detector is off, sorry.

Let's enjoy that we finally got it right to some extent no?

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Old
11-22-2010, 05:49 PM
  #21
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Wait, people are complaining about Sanguinetti not making it? Still?
why did gilroy need to be signed? cause he was a new yorker i mean, gilroy is making $2,100,000


Sang was alot cheaper and younger and more time to improve.

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