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What is the knock against Gil Perreault?

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Old
11-21-2010, 03:29 PM
  #176
cupcrazyman
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if he had played his career for Montreal or in Toronto,we wouldn't be having this debate.

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11-21-2010, 04:09 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
if he had played his career for Montreal or in Toronto,we wouldn't be having this debate.
In Montreal, no, probably not. In Toronto, yeah, the team would have stunk with or without a Perreault and he probably would have had the reputation of a "good offensive player who couldn't lead his team anywhere" or a "bad team scorer".

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11-21-2010, 04:28 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yep, you got me. I don't think I even know what a hockey game is. It's one of those things with four wheels that you drive around on the streets, right?



Did you miss the part where I outlined a number of players who may not have contributed quite as much on the scoresheet as Perreault, but contributed a whole lot more in other areas? Kinda sounds like you agree with that, so what's the problem?

The whole basis for saying guys like Fedorov and Forsberg and Keon and Ullman and Gilmour were better, was the fact that they did a lot of things that didn't show up on the scoresheet. Please clarify exactly what you're arguing with here.



I have seen Perreault play, and I can see exactly why this is a four-page discussion. (yes, four pages, I see 50 posts per page)

Perreault's dazzling style of play causes him to be remembered more fondly by those who saw him throughout his career. His resume comes with a (comparitive) lack of results compared to some other less-dazzling players, as I've shown.

A key bodycheck, a pass tip, a shot block, those are things that you catch by watching games that won't show up on the scoresheet - the kind of things that can "break the tie" between two players with similar offensive results. A speedy rush up the ice or a fancy deke doesn't really impact the result of the game in any way if it doesn't create a goal. (a player who can do those things more often should give himself a better chance to create goals over the long run, naturally) But it will cause you to remember that player more and say "wow, he's talented" - when it's all said and done, it's their contribution to winning that matters.
This last part is the biggest problem in the history section IMO, teams wins Cups not players or even a group of players but whole teams, coaches ect.. guys like Perreault and Dionne get undervalued and guys like Lafluer and many 06 guys get over valued with their "contributions" to winning IMO.

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11-22-2010, 12:17 AM
  #179
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If it's worth anything, I always felt he brought "it" in international competition!

I mean, that goal he scored in game 4 @ Vancouver in '72, and he got a nice assist in game 5.

Then he had that big game against the Soviet Wings in 1976. Great '76 Canada Cup.

He was on fire in that '81 Canada Cup and then he gets hurt!


Last edited by Scott1980: 11-22-2010 at 12:18 AM. Reason: Capital missing
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11-22-2010, 10:32 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Scott1980 View Post
He was on fire in that '81 Canada Cup and then he gets hurt!
Agreed.

And an excavation from my personal memory. Challenge Cup 1979. Perrreault, located someplace at the top of Team USSR faceoff circle. He deftly dangles two or three opponents and moves in for a shot - just wi-i-i-de! Even announcer Nikolai Ozerov, a Cold War henchman had to cough up a word of praise, something unprecedented in the coverage of Russo-Canadian games. He said, "Какая техника!" (What a technician!), an unparalleled outburst of emotion when referring to a foreighn sporting achievement.


Last edited by Anderson9: 11-22-2010 at 10:58 AM.
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11-22-2010, 10:57 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Scott1980 View Post
He was on fire in that '81 Canada Cup and then he gets hurt!
Agreed.

And an excavation from my personal memory. Challenge Cup 1979. Perrreault, located someplace at the top of Team USSR faceoff circle. He deftly dangles two or three opponents and moves in for a shot - just wi-i-i-de! Even announcer Nikolai Ozerov, a Cold War henchman had to cough up a word of praise, something unprecedented in the coverage of Russo-Canadian games. He said, "Какая техника!" (What a technician!), an unparalleled outburst of emotion when referring to a foreighn sporting achievement..

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11-22-2010, 02:48 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This last part is the biggest problem in the history section IMO, teams wins Cups not players or even a group of players but whole teams, coaches ect.. guys like Perreault and Dionne get undervalued and guys like Lafluer and many 06 guys get over valued with their "contributions" to winning IMO.
I agree that Perreault can get lost in the shuffle. For example we are having a serious discussion on the other thread where some believe Modano was superior to him - which he was not if you value the eye test.

But the thing with him is that he was usually good in the playoffs. And he was amazing in the Canada Cups. Dionne wasn't very good with either. It's safe to say a player of his caliber should have carried his team further in the playoffs. Dionne is the only player in the HHOF to my knowledge who never won a 7 game playoff series (since it was implemented). That's not good and part of the blame has to go to Dionne. This is a guy who regularly hit 120-130 points and he struggled with 45 points in 49 playoff games.

Lafleur is a guy who had the opportunities yet rose to the challenge. He was the best player on a dynasty, he was the most important player. He was winning Cups while being the best in the world. You can't penalize him for that just because others didn't do it.

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Old
11-22-2010, 02:58 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I agree that Perreault can get lost in the shuffle. For example we are having a serious discussion on the other thread where some believe Modano was superior to him - which he was not if you value the eye test.

But the thing with him is that he was usually good in the playoffs. And he was amazing in the Canada Cups. Dionne wasn't very good with either. It's safe to say a player of his caliber should have carried his team further in the playoffs. Dionne is the only player in the HHOF to my knowledge who never won a 7 game playoff series (since it was implemented). That's not good and part of the blame has to go to Dionne. This is a guy who regularly hit 120-130 points and he struggled with 45 points in 49 playoff games.

Lafleur is a guy who had the opportunities yet rose to the challenge. He was the best player on a dynasty, he was the most important player. He was winning Cups while being the best in the world. You can't penalize him for that just because others didn't do it.
Not true I value the eye test and I think Modano was better. I don't magically go blind once the puck is off Modano's stick though. He could do some crazy things with it on his stick as well. Modano's the perfect case of a player who sacrificed offense for defense, and his team was probably better for it.

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11-22-2010, 04:08 PM
  #184
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After Lafleur, probably the 2nd most naturally talented player I saw in the 70's, but for whatever reason, didn't have too many 'seasons for the ages' like some of his contemporaries enjoyed. IMO, based on his skill, there really is no reason he shouldn't have been as good or better than Dionne, but Dionne got much better results on a season to season basis, and did have 'seasons for the ages'.

As an aside, the Gretzky/Lafleur/Perreault line in the 1981 CC was the highlight of the tournament for me. What incredible chemistry they developed so damn quickly.

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11-22-2010, 06:03 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Lafleur is a guy who had the opportunities yet rose to the challenge. He was the best player on a dynasty, he was the most important player. He was winning Cups while being the best in the world. You can't penalize him for that just because others didn't do it.
Which put the thought into my head, if Lafleur played the 1970s in Buffalo, and Perreault was with the Canadiens.... does Montreal still win 4 Cups and Buffalo remain dry?

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11-22-2010, 06:14 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by mobilus View Post
Which put the thought into my head, if Lafleur played the 1970s in Buffalo, and Perreault was with the Canadiens.... does Montreal still win 4 Cups and Buffalo remain dry?
If I were betting I would bet yes.

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Old
11-22-2010, 06:32 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
If I saw them play than that is what I base my rankings on. you can throw out all the statistics you want but there is no way in hell that Hawerchuk & Sittler were as skilled as Perrault. I saw them play & Perrault was significantly better.
I saw all of them play as well, and I have to agree that Perreault was demonstrably better than Hawerchuk, Sittler, (and the earlier mentioned), Ratelle.

I actually do have Gilbert in my top 100, he came in at number 82 on my original list, (Hawerchuk is at 113).
I'd probably have him a little bit lower if I did my list again, but I'm confident he would still appear somewhere in the mid to high 90's.

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11-22-2010, 06:50 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by lextune View Post
I saw all of them play as well, and I have to agree that Perreault was demonstrably better than Hawerchuk, Sittler, (and the earlier mentioned), Ratelle.

I actually do have Gilbert in my top 100, he came in at number 82 on my original list, (Hawerchuk is at 113).
I'd probably have him a little bit lower if I did my list again, but I'm confident he would still appear somewhere in the mid to high 90's.
I have to agree as well. Perreault was a magician.

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11-22-2010, 08:23 PM
  #189
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It would only be acceptable if he gets ranked around 80th or lower. Ranking him 50-65th would suggest he's as good as boucher, bathgate and dionne. Those 3 blow him out of the water.

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11-23-2010, 07:14 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
Not true I value the eye test and I think Modano was better. I don't magically go blind once the puck is off Modano's stick though. He could do some crazy things with it on his stick as well. Modano's the perfect case of a player who sacrificed offense for defense, and his team was probably better for it.
He did sacrifice offense for better defense. It helped him win a Cup although who knows if he still could have had he been stringing together 100 point seasons. I do give Modano that credit, but was Steve Yzerman a better player in 1989 or 1997? I know my answer and while I credit a player who adjusted their game you also can't underrate the impact an explosive offensive player has while on the ice. I will agree Modano was great away from the puck, but I'll also say Perreault's numbers still don't reflect how much havoc he wrecked on the ice when he HAD the puck. Some players have that luxury, Perreault had it

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilus View Post
Which put the thought into my head, if Lafleur played the 1970s in Buffalo, and Perreault was with the Canadiens.... does Montreal still win 4 Cups and Buffalo remain dry?
No, they don't win 4 in a row. For one reason, Lafleur was a better player than Perreault. Nothing against Perreault, but they might win 3, not 4. Lafleur's display in Game 7 of 1979 is something I don't think very many players could have done. Not to mention while he only won the Smythe once, there are three straight years where no one would bat an eyelash had he won them all. And even in 1976 he was the highest scoring Hab. Lafleur was a game breaker like very few in NHL history. Perreault was good in the playoffs, but not a "legendary" game breaker

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11-24-2010, 07:38 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by mobilus View Post
Which put the thought into my head, if Lafleur played the 1970s in Buffalo, and Perreault was with the Canadiens.... does Montreal still win 4 Cups and Buffalo remain dry?
Lafleur was obviously on a better team, but even being on the better team, during the 4 year run, he was winning his team scoring championships by a greater margin than Perreault was on Buffalo. Essentially, Lafleur was more important to the better team's offense than Perreault to Buffalo's offense.

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11-24-2010, 07:59 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
After Lafleur, probably the 2nd most naturally talented player I saw in the 70's, but for whatever reason, didn't have too many 'seasons for the ages' like some of his contemporaries enjoyed. .
I actually think Perreault was more naturally skilled than Lafleur; better skater, stickhandler and dangler in my opinion. Perreault also reached his prime way sooner than Lafleur and aged a little better; he was also the superior international performer. Of course, what Lafleur achieved during his 5-6 prime years far surpasses everything that Perreault did, no argument there.

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