HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Prospects you liked (and why) and who failed to make it.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-23-2010, 06:45 PM
  #126
Bill_Meltzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
The flyers have a high failure rate with drafted dman imo. Do you think the fault lied/lies in misidentifying the talent or more that they could not develop the players? I know it is a little of both but wanted your opinion. Seeing they never succeed anywhere else maybe it is more identifying the players.

Yes, it's a bit of both. If I had to say more one than the other, it was in picking defensemen who were drafted more because of their size than their skill.

I always thought Ray Giroux came along too soon for his own good. Smaller defensemen were not in demand anywhere in the league, especially not here in Philly. I thought Giroux played fairly well in his NHL stints and has been an excellent RSL/KHL defenseman for the last six seasons without ever getting a sniff at the NHL again. At 34 now, there's no NHL market for him anymore.


Last edited by Bill_Meltzer: 11-24-2010 at 07:50 AM.
Bill_Meltzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 06:46 PM
  #127
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,298
vCash: 165
Also dan mcgillis, he was a beast on the blueline for a few years, never really developed, what happened with him? he seemed to be on track to be an all-star, was it an injury? as i remember him knocking around with the devils after the lockout, but nothing since.

Appleyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 07:03 PM
  #128
CantSeeColors
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Country: Seychelles
Posts: 5,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Yeah, nasty injury, "underrated" nasty in that it's hard to understand unlike a blown knee or busted arm.
He essentially had his abs ripped apart, didn't he? Or am I thinking of someone else? Pitkanen maybe?

CantSeeColors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 07:48 PM
  #129
Bill_Meltzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
He essentially had his abs ripped apart, didn't he? Or am I thinking of someone else? Pitkanen maybe?
He had a "regular" sports hernia before the 1995-96 season, came back two weeks after surgery in order to be ready for opening night. Renberg played excellent hockey in October to early December but re-aggravated the injury in early Dec (and kept on playing). Finally, in January, the pain got to be too much.

He tried to rest for a few weeks, but that didn't help. So he played sporadically the rest of the season. In the playoffs, he was numbed in order to play, and actually did pretty well considering his condition.

After the season, it was learned that the abdominal muscle had torn clean off from the pubic bone. He never had quite the same explosive skating ability again.

The following season, it took Renberg half a season to get going again. But he still averaged over a point-per-game in the second half with 14 goals in the second half -- no small feat despite playing with the LOD because scoring was on the downswing league-wide and Terry Murray removed Renberg from the powerplay in December, so he only had one PPG the entire year).

Late in the season, he suffered a horrific facial injury when he got kicked in the face by Randy Cunneyworth's skate in the opening seconds of a game against Ottawa. Two days after getting 200-plus stitches in his face, he showed up in Voorhees wanting to at least skate with the rest of the club but Murray wisely said no.

In playoffs, Renberg played well against Pittsburgh and even better against Buffalo. But then he suffered bone spurs in his ankle and Murray moved him down in the lineup the rest of the playoffs, because it affected his skating (he had post-season surgery to clean out the problem and shave down the ankle bone -- he'd had a similar procedure on the other foot after his rookie year).

That summer he was traded to Tampa. In Tampa, he suffered a broken wrist and another groin injury his first year. Early his second year, he broke his thumb shortly prior to being traded back to the Flyers. With Philly, he suffered a separated shoulder in December and broken ribs two games before the start of the playoffs.

The following year, he had yet another abdominal/groin issue plus he was dealing with separation (and eventually divorce) from his wife before being traded to Phoenix.

Later in his career, Renberg nearly got his arm sliced off by the propeller of his boat while he was out fishing during the summer with his father near his hometown in Sweden. Luckily, all he suffered was a laceration on his shoulder. A year later, when he was playing for Toronto, he was hospitalized and nearly had to have a hand amputated because of an infection.

After returning to Sweden to finish his career, he had a variety of back problems that worsened.

That's why whenever Renberg gets dismissed as an underachiever or called the "third wheel on the LOD" (even though he was arguably a better player than LeClair in the first 1 1/2 seasons of the line's existence), I always point to the injury history. The guy had the worst luck with injuries of just about any player I've ever seen.

Renberg was a gamer to a fault. Part of what makes hockey such a tough business is that you need to play hard enough to put your body on the line and risk injuries. If you get injured, you can't play like it and the "code" says you can never cite it as an excuse even when the injury is clearly affecting your play.

Bill_Meltzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-23-2010, 07:50 PM
  #130
Bill_Meltzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Also dan mcgillis, he was a beast on the blueline for a few years, never really developed, what happened with him? he seemed to be on track to be an all-star, was it an injury? as i remember him knocking around with the devils after the lockout, but nothing since.
Big shot, excellent hitter. What did McGillis in was the greatly increased emphasis on skating and puck-movement after the lockout. It wasn't his game.

Bill_Meltzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 07:43 AM
  #131
jb**
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Planet Lovetron
Country: Italy
Posts: 8,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
Yes, it's a bit of both. If I had to say more one than the other, it was in picking defensemen who were drafted more because of their size than their skill.

I always thought Ray Giroux came along too song for his own good. Smaller defensemen were not in demand anywhere in the league, especially not here in Philly. I thought Giroux played fairly well in his NHL stints and has been an excellent RSL/KHL defenseman for the last six seasons without ever getting a sniff at the NHL again. At 34 now, there's no NHL market for him anymore.
Like Mike Crowley(think that was his first name). A small guy who could skate and had offensive skills.

jb** is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 08:53 AM
  #132
CantSeeColors
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Country: Seychelles
Posts: 5,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
He had a "regular" sports hernia before the 1995-96 season, came back two weeks after surgery in order to be ready for opening night. Renberg played excellent hockey in October to early December but re-aggravated the injury in early Dec (and kept on playing). Finally, in January, the pain got to be too much.

He tried to rest for a few weeks, but that didn't help. So he played sporadically the rest of the season. In the playoffs, he was numbed in order to play, and actually did pretty well considering his condition.

After the season, it was learned that the abdominal muscle had torn clean off from the pubic bone. He never had quite the same explosive skating ability again.

The following season, it took Renberg half a season to get going again. But he still averaged over a point-per-game in the second half with 14 goals in the second half -- no small feat despite playing with the LOD because scoring was on the downswing league-wide and Terry Murray removed Renberg from the powerplay in December, so he only had one PPG the entire year).

Late in the season, he suffered a horrific facial injury when he got kicked in the face by Randy Cunneyworth's skate in the opening seconds of a game against Ottawa. Two days after getting 200-plus stitches in his face, he showed up in Voorhees wanting to at least skate with the rest of the club but Murray wisely said no.

In playoffs, Renberg played well against Pittsburgh and even better against Buffalo. But then he suffered bone spurs in his ankle and Murray moved him down in the lineup the rest of the playoffs, because it affected his skating (he had post-season surgery to clean out the problem and shave down the ankle bone -- he'd had a similar procedure on the other foot after his rookie year).

That summer he was traded to Tampa. In Tampa, he suffered a broken wrist and another groin injury his first year. Early his second year, he broke his thumb shortly prior to being traded back to the Flyers. With Philly, he suffered a separated shoulder in December and broken ribs two games before the start of the playoffs.

The following year, he had yet another abdominal/groin issue plus he was dealing with separation (and eventually divorce) from his wife before being traded to Phoenix.

Later in his career, Renberg nearly got his arm sliced off by the propeller of his boat while he was out fishing during the summer with his father near his hometown in Sweden. Luckily, all he suffered was a laceration on his shoulder. A year later, when he was playing for Toronto, he was hospitalized and nearly had to have a hand amputated because of an infection.

After returning to Sweden to finish his career, he had a variety of back problems that worsened.

That's why whenever Renberg gets dismissed as an underachiever or called the "third wheel on the LOD" (even though he was arguably a better player than LeClair in the first 1 1/2 seasons of the line's existence), I always point to the injury history. The guy had the worst luck with injuries of just about any player I've ever seen.

Renberg was a gamer to a fault. Part of what makes hockey such a tough business is that you need to play hard enough to put your body on the line and risk injuries. If you get injured, you can't play like it and the "code" says you can never cite it as an excuse even when the injury is clearly affecting your play.
Wow, I knew he had a track record of always dealing with injuries, but I didn't know it was that severe. I was only about 8 when he made his debut so I was really just getting into hockey and didn't know the ins and outs, but he's the one guy from my childhood who stands out as really being something special and making me wonder "what if?"

I distinctly remember being at a game - probably before the injury trouble - and my dad pointed him out to me to watch for a few shifts so I could learn that great hockey players bust their ***** for entire shifts, but keep their shifts short and get off the ice after 45 seconds max. I can't imagine too many other ten year olds were taking that skill away from watching the NHL.

CantSeeColors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 09:28 AM
  #133
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 11,379
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
Big shot, excellent hitter. What did McGillis in was the greatly increased emphasis on skating and puck-movement after the lockout. It wasn't his game.
That would annoy the hell out of me if I was a player during that time. Just imagine, you're recruited to a new job, you are really excelling and you have all the promise in the world of advancement, then all of the sudden your boss changes the format of your job to expose all of your weaknesses.

__________________
"Help was not promised, lovely girl. Only death."
JDinkalage Morgoone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 09:32 AM
  #134
agrudez*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,612
vCash: 500
That write-up on Renberg was fantastic, Bill.

I would love to see you expand on that into a full article one day, very interesting read. Thank you.

agrudez* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 09:44 AM
  #135
CharlieGirl
Registered User
 
CharlieGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
That write-up on Renberg was fantastic, Bill.

I would love to see you expand on that into a full article one day, very interesting read. Thank you.
Ditto.

I remember Renberg having horrible luck with injuries, but it really jumps out at you when you see them listed one after the other.

CharlieGirl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 09:46 AM
  #136
MiamiScreamingEagles
Global Moderator
A Fistful of Dollars
 
MiamiScreamingEagles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 39,335
vCash: 1476
Quote:
The guy had the worst luck with injuries of just about any player I've ever seen.
Bill: Would you put him ahead of Tim Kerr?

MiamiScreamingEagles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 11:08 AM
  #137
Bill_Meltzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Bill: Would you put him ahead of Tim Kerr?
In terms of sheer variety of injuries, yes. But Kerr had chronic shoulder and knee issues that ended his career prematurely.

Bill_Meltzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 11:59 AM
  #138
kicksave27
Registered User
 
kicksave27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,246
vCash: 500
Kerr also lost his wife during childberth. That's about the worst thing that could happen to anyone

kicksave27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 12:02 PM
  #139
CantSeeColors
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Country: Seychelles
Posts: 5,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer View Post
In terms of sheer variety of injuries, yes. But Kerr had chronic shoulder and knee issues that ended his career prematurely.
That's really mind-boggling when you think about it. Chronic injuries are things I think we're all used to seeing, but the list you posted for Renberg is just amazing. I can't think of anyone who comes close to having that many distinct injuries.

CantSeeColors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 12:22 PM
  #140
Flyskippy
Registered User
 
Flyskippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Audubon, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
That would annoy the hell out of me if I was a player during that time. Just imagine, you're recruited to a new job, you are really excelling and you have all the promise in the world of advancement, then all of the sudden your boss changes the format of your job to expose all of your weaknesses.
"Tell me about it."


Flyskippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 12:24 PM
  #141
Flyskippy
Registered User
 
Flyskippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Audubon, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Bill, just wanted to add another comment of praise for that post above. It's a good read and a bad one at the same time. Well done, but a hard topic to swallow because there was so much promise there. I figured after Renberg's rookie season it was a good idea to get his jersey. I have his Swedish (blue) one, too. Still a good idea, just sad how his luck went.

Flyskippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 12:34 PM
  #142
jb**
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Planet Lovetron
Country: Italy
Posts: 8,556
vCash: 500
Renberg was so hard to take off the puck. Loved the way he played, especially when he went wide and drove to the net. along the boards he was tough as well.

jb** is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 12:38 PM
  #143
Bill_Meltzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
Kerr also lost his wife during childberth. That's about the worst thing that could happen to anyone
Absolutely. What an awful situation that was. Kerr went from the happiest time of his life to the lowest just like that -- he also had step-children from his wife's first marriage and had to figure out how to balance his career with caring for a newborn and raising the other kids.

Bill_Meltzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 01:34 PM
  #144
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Renberg was so hard to take off the puck. Loved the way he played, especially when he went wide and drove to the net. along the boards he was tough as well.
To this day, Mikael Renberg is one of my favorite players of all time. He was so entertaining to watch before all of the injuries and for my money was better than LeClair when healthy.

I can see it perfectly in my mind, Renberg scoops up the puck in the neutral zone, skates up the wing controlling the puck with one hand on his stick with speed, corrals the puck and goes wide on the defenseman, and drives straight to the net. He did that so many times.

My all time favorite Flyers haven't changed since the late 90's:

1) Hextall
2) Renberg
3) Howe

The closest I can come to a clear-cut 4th is Giroux.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-24-2010, 01:51 PM
  #145
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
That's really mind-boggling when you think about it. Chronic injuries are things I think we're all used to seeing, but the list you posted for Renberg is just amazing. I can't think of anyone who comes close to having that many distinct injuries.
I think you mean "mind-bottling" instead. You know when things are so crazy, you get your thoughts trapped, like in a bottle.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2010, 07:43 AM
  #146
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
I thought that Potulny, Ruzicka and Picard would all become NHL regulars at one point. Picard is apparently playing pretty good for Montreal so far though, so maybe he can last a few more seasons.

Other than that, I really hoped that David Nyström would make it. Mostly because I've played against him and it would be cool to have done that against a Flyer.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2010, 01:25 PM
  #147
whatthef
Failure is an Option
 
whatthef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Upper Darby
Country: United States
Posts: 4,612
vCash: 1000
The first one that comes to mind for me is Stefan Ruzicka. I had him pegged as a second line winger who could score 25-30 goals. I was impressed with his coming over to North America and played in the OHL to develop even prior to the draft. He was from the amazing 2003 draft, had very good numbers in the OHL, and even pretty good numbers with the Phantoms. But obviously it just never translated. Big disappointment there.

I disappointment with what happened with Pitakanen. I don't know if failed to make it is the right way to put it though. He hasn't been the elite defenseman we expect other than his second season here. I'm still kind of pissed about that trade that shipped him out of here. It was pretty awful.

whatthef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-11-2010, 02:29 PM
  #148
lancer247
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Renberg was so hard to take off the puck. Loved the way he played, especially when he went wide and drove to the net. along the boards he was tough as well.
i would love to see Carter add that to his game.

lancer247 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.