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Old
11-23-2010, 03:07 PM
  #26
SLang
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First of all, after bad experiences with other mfr's the only TV I'll buy anymore is a Samsung. All of them have been perfect so far. I have a 1 year old 58" 6500 Series plasma in the family room, a 6 mo old 46" 7100 Series LED LCD in the bedroom and just got a 40" 540 Series LCD for the garage (I know, I know, but I spend a LOT of time out there on the cars!). The 40" LCD was on sale at Frys for $499.. and was a GREAT deal considering the picture quality.

So I have all three types, and ALL are great for hockey in HD. They make your eyes bleed for hockey in SD but that's becoming less and less of an issue.

The LED TV is pretty interesting for movie watching....it has an almost super-high quality video look to it....it's odd, but looks awesome!

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11-23-2010, 03:16 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
You think? It sounds like you are talking about MSRP prices right, not sales?

Where did you read this? LOL, nearly every electronics purpose I've ever made, regardless of how much research I do, I seem to see a price $500+ less than I paid a month or two later. Kind of the nature of the beast though. Prices never hold on electronics for more than a year.
http://www.latimes.com/sns-pfinance-...,2452710.story
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13300629
http://www.seacoastonline.com/articl...1-BIZ-11210319

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11-23-2010, 03:38 PM
  #28
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Thanks for the links. From reading those it looks like this week and next weeks prices are good. It doesn't say anything about the prices getting slashed again near xmas. It says 'holiday season', which in business terms, starts on friday. They say the average price for a 55" LED is ~$1800 and the one i want is on sale for $1599, so I think I'm good to go!

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11-23-2010, 04:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Thanks for the links. From reading those it looks like this week and next weeks prices are good. It doesn't say anything about the prices getting slashed again near xmas. It says 'holiday season', which in business terms, starts on friday. They say the average price for a 55" LED is ~$1800 and the one i want is on sale for $1599, so I think I'm good to go!
I'm just saying the prices will likely stay at about the same level for the rest of the year. I'm hoping they'll dip a bit more in the next few weeks since I'm also in the market. By the way, that TV was $1399 at fry's last month.


Last edited by santiclaws: 11-23-2010 at 04:08 PM.
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11-23-2010, 04:12 PM
  #30
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If you do take the plunge, use this site as a starting point to calibrate your television, most of the gimmicky selling points of tv's actually decrease the picture value. This site posts calibrations that professionals have made to the same model tv, I know the room lighting might not be the same but it helps!

http://www.tweaktv.com/tweak-my-tv/c...55c6500-4.html

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11-23-2010, 04:27 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by kingscup View Post
If you do take the plunge, use this site as a starting point to calibrate your television, most of the gimmicky selling points of tv's actually decrease the picture value. This site posts calibrations that professionals have made to the same model tv, I know the room lighting might not be the same but it helps!

http://www.tweaktv.com/tweak-my-tv/c...55c6500-4.html
Niiiiice.

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11-23-2010, 05:46 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sweatypickle View Post
monoprice.com! nothing else for cables of any sort...
Definitely. When I bought mine the guy at best buy tried to convince me I need 120hz "certified" hdmi cables to use my TV at $60 a pop. Got into quite an argument over the fact that there really is no such thing as non 120 hz cables and that any hdmi cable of the latest spec would work. Ironically, I hardly ever even use the 120 hz because I don't notice that much of a difference for sports and I don't like the way it makes movies look. It makes them look like you are watching a home video instead of a movie. It's like you are in the room with the actors but not in a good way. I got my HDMI cables on monoprice for like 2-5 bucks each and have been using them ever since. Make sure you purchase them first so you can come home and plug everything in right away.

I, as well, could never go back to SD. Occasionally I have to watch the 32" tube in my bedroom and it is torture to see what's going on. Hope that helps.

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Old
11-23-2010, 06:02 PM
  #33
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I got my Samsung Plasma at Best Buy last year on Black Friday. I just walked in at around 1pm and purchased it. I have the Series 5 and LOVE it. It's amazing for hockey in HD, but as someone mentioned, not so awesome for SD hockey. We had a projection HD Sony TV before this one, and the Samsung kicks its butt. I'd say the leap from the Sony to my Samsung was bigger than the jump from my tube tv to my Sony HD tv.

My only complaint for it is the sound. It's not amazing, but that can be fixed with surround sound. We bought it for about 40% off because we bought it on Black Friday.

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11-23-2010, 06:14 PM
  #34
TonySCV
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Plasmas are the way to go. Best picture period, particularly for sports.

I swear by Panasonic plasmas. That's what I recommend to everyone that asks.

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11-23-2010, 06:16 PM
  #35
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I buy just about all my electronics cables on ebay. HDMI cables are about $2 each shipped.

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11-23-2010, 06:27 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
Plasmas are the way to go. Best picture period, particularly for sports.

I swear by Panasonic plasmas. That's what I recommend to everyone that asks.
We have 6 nice Panasonic plasmas at work that have almost convinced me to go That route...

Can u elaborate o. Why u think the picture is better?

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11-24-2010, 02:05 AM
  #37
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Isn't the whole point of 120hz that they handle fast motion and blur better than 60hz? Or at least, what they are advertised to do, or so I thought

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11-24-2010, 04:00 AM
  #38
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120hz is fine. Actually, 60hz is fine, because that is what nearly all sports are broadcast in. The whole motion-blur thing because your refresh isn't fast enough is a marketing tool. Very few things are broadcast in 120hz.

The only real advantage to a 120hz TV is that it is smoother for non-digital movies. Film movies are shot at 24 frames per second, while video is shot at 30 frames per second. 60hz is fine for digital film because you simply put one digital film frame into two video frames. This doesn't work for film, however, because 24 does not go evenly into 60. The first film frame goes into two video frames, but the second film frame has to fit into 1.5 video frames, so you get what is called jutter, or lack of smoothness. This is called 3:2 pulldown.

A 120hz TV is smoother for film because 24 goes into 120 evenly. Therefore during conversion 1 film frame goes into 5 video frames and all is well. It's jutter free.

For sports, the difference between 60hz and 120hz isn't significant, especially since they are broadcast in 60hz. Will hockey look better on a 120hz TV? Probably so, but this is because the TV's are current and produce better images.

For movies though, even though the conversion is better they don't necessarily *look* better. A 120hz TV may not have judder, but in fast motion scenes the backgrounds can look entirely too clear, and you will sometimes see artifacts. That background blur looks natural to our eyes, and if it is too clear it looks odd and unnatural. This is the exact reason why panavision film still rules Hollywood. More movies are being shot on Red One digital film (like Avatar), but film still is more popular by far because of the look. I have a buddy that bought a LED with a high refresh rate and he loves the quality, but his only complaint is that "almost everything looks like a soap-opera". Film has a classic feel while video is really sharp looking.

Bottom line is the most important thing is preference, and the best advice is just to look at as many TV's as you can and pick one that looks natural and the best to you. Some people don't even notice the analog/digital film difference and some can't even see jutter. Don't get taken in by numbers or especially salesmen that are full of crap and want to sell you a $50 HDMI cable when a $10 one does the same exact job.

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11-24-2010, 11:49 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
120hz is fine. Actually, 60hz is fine, because that is what nearly all sports are broadcast in. The whole motion-blur thing because your refresh isn't fast enough is a marketing tool. Very few things are broadcast in 120hz.

The only real advantage to a 120hz TV is that it is smoother for non-digital movies. Film movies are shot at 24 frames per second, while video is shot at 30 frames per second. 60hz is fine for digital film because you simply put one digital film frame into two video frames. This doesn't work for film, however, because 24 does not go evenly into 60. The first film frame goes into two video frames, but the second film frame has to fit into 1.5 video frames, so you get what is called jutter, or lack of smoothness. This is called 3:2 pulldown.

A 120hz TV is smoother for film because 24 goes into 120 evenly. Therefore during conversion 1 film frame goes into 5 video frames and all is well. It's jutter free.

For sports, the difference between 60hz and 120hz isn't significant, especially since they are broadcast in 60hz. Will hockey look better on a 120hz TV? Probably so, but this is because the TV's are current and produce better images.

For movies though, even though the conversion is better they don't necessarily *look* better. A 120hz TV may not have judder, but in fast motion scenes the backgrounds can look entirely too clear, and you will sometimes see artifacts. That background blur looks natural to our eyes, and if it is too clear it looks odd and unnatural. This is the exact reason why panavision film still rules Hollywood. More movies are being shot on Red One digital film (like Avatar), but film still is more popular by far because of the look. I have a buddy that bought a LED with a high refresh rate and he loves the quality, but his only complaint is that "almost everything looks like a soap-opera". Film has a classic feel while video is really sharp looking.

Bottom line is the most important thing is preference, and the best advice is just to look at as many TV's as you can and pick one that looks natural and the best to you. Some people don't even notice the analog/digital film difference and some can't even see jutter. Don't get taken in by numbers or especially salesmen that are full of crap and want to sell you a $50 HDMI cable when a $10 one does the same exact job.
Now that's the kind of answer I was hoping for, from a fellow hockey fan and obvious post man.

Curious, are you an editor, a telecine tech or a DIT/Video Control guy?

I do slightly hesitate about LED over Plasma for the "soap opera" feel, which I definitely notice. It bothers me for some films/tv shows, but for other things, like hockey and nature shows, I absolutely love it. Its tough to decide... part of me wants to buy one of each...

It will be a sad day if filmstock is ever completely phased out... Having shot with it, I think the RED camera looks nice, especially with the right shutter adapters it strips away a lot of that 'digital' look, but I mostly hate working with the RED in post lol.

Film workflow is so simple and easy, tried and true. Having to learn new digital system workflows every year becomes tiresome.

Also, how dare you bring up 3:2 pulldown. I don't think about that unless I have to! I've had far too many headaches in life fixing pulldown in other peoples projects that weren't set up and captured properly

Thanks for the answer man. I figured the hz thing was a little bit of a misnomer, and only came here to ask based on other end user reviews I read about the difference in watching sports, but no one was hockey specific... plus I trust most of this board... on many boards, particularly tech boards you get a lot of biased answers, even if they are informative, because everyone has their preferences when it comes to gearheads.

I will have to check if the TV I want has the option of turning it from 60hz to 120hz and back. I know there are plenty of shows I will want to watch it 60hz, and other things in 120hz.

OK... now I'm off to check Plasma prices and see if I can afford one of those too...

Damn you all and thanks so much!

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Old
11-24-2010, 12:19 PM
  #40
santiclaws
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
120hz is fine. Actually, 60hz is fine, because that is what nearly all sports are broadcast in. The whole motion-blur thing because your refresh isn't fast enough is a marketing tool. Very few things are broadcast in 120hz.

The only real advantage to a 120hz TV is that it is smoother for non-digital movies. Film movies are shot at 24 frames per second, while video is shot at 30 frames per second. 60hz is fine for digital film because you simply put one digital film frame into two video frames. This doesn't work for film, however, because 24 does not go evenly into 60. The first film frame goes into two video frames, but the second film frame has to fit into 1.5 video frames, so you get what is called jutter, or lack of smoothness. This is called 3:2 pulldown.

A 120hz TV is smoother for film because 24 goes into 120 evenly. Therefore during conversion 1 film frame goes into 5 video frames and all is well. It's jutter free.

For sports, the difference between 60hz and 120hz isn't significant, especially since they are broadcast in 60hz. Will hockey look better on a 120hz TV? Probably so, but this is because the TV's are current and produce better images.

For movies though, even though the conversion is better they don't necessarily *look* better. A 120hz TV may not have judder, but in fast motion scenes the backgrounds can look entirely too clear, and you will sometimes see artifacts. That background blur looks natural to our eyes, and if it is too clear it looks odd and unnatural. This is the exact reason why panavision film still rules Hollywood. More movies are being shot on Red One digital film (like Avatar), but film still is more popular by far because of the look. I have a buddy that bought a LED with a high refresh rate and he loves the quality, but his only complaint is that "almost everything looks like a soap-opera". Film has a classic feel while video is really sharp looking.

Bottom line is the most important thing is preference, and the best advice is just to look at as many TV's as you can and pick one that looks natural and the best to you. Some people don't even notice the analog/digital film difference and some can't even see jutter. Don't get taken in by numbers or especially salesmen that are full of crap and want to sell you a $50 HDMI cable when a $10 one does the same exact job.
Thank you. That's a very good, easy-to-understand explanation.

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Old
11-24-2010, 01:13 PM
  #41
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I'm just a photographer and a technophile

Like most photographers, I'm very critical of my own work, so I always try to think what I could do better the next time. As I'm slowly moving into video, I use the same approach.

With the new D-SLR cameras being so adept at video, I've researched what makes video have a certain look vs. film. Until a few years ago, I didn't even think about what makes a soap opera look the way it does. So I started thinking "If I make a video for a client, how can I control the feel? And most importantly, what kind of TV will they likely view it on?" That led me to lots of TV fact-finding.

Good luck in your search, and if you go brick and mortar talk to a couple different salesmen and find a good one. A good tip-off is they will usually ask you what kind of programs you watch, and what kind of environment your room is (light, dark, etc). Don't forget that what looks best to you is the most important factor, after all you'll be looking at it for a long time. If a model with newer features looks best, go for it. Technology will catch up at some point. Remember, most people had 1080p TV's years before they were useful and true 1080p programming and blu-ray came out. Just keep in mind you don't 'need' a feature like 120hz or 240hz to watch sports. In fact (to throw a wrench in all of this), fast sports action or fast scenes are much more dependent on response time than they are refresh rate.

Response time is what you see monitors advertise in milliseconds, like this monitor has a 8ms response time. It's the time needed for a pixel to change from one color to another completely. Refresh is simply how fast a screen is updated. Most of the motion blur you see isn't because the screen can't keep up (most people cannot notice changes past 35 frames per second anyways), but because the pixels are still changing color. So when Brown is flying down the wing in an attempt to make falling down look as dramatic as possible, those pixels on his purple jersey aren't changing to the white of the ice fast enough and what you get is blur.

Unfortunately, most stores don't show really fast scenes so it's hard to compare TV's. I can tell you this though, Plasma has a much higher response time than LCD (its around 3ms). For this reason, I would echo Tony's advice that plasmas are the best picture for sports. This is the reason I still love my DLP - it's the fastest response time out there and I will not change to a LCD. I'm getting a bedroom TV, and that will certainly be a plasma.

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11-24-2010, 01:27 PM
  #42
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I will have to check if the TV I want has the option of turning it from 60hz to 120hz and back. I know there are plenty of shows I will want to watch it 60hz, and other things in 120hz.

OK... now I'm off to check Plasma prices and see if I can afford one of those too...

Damn you all and thanks so much!
I don't think you can change the 120hz to 60 hz and that should not matter. At 120 the screen just "paints" the same picture twice. You can turn off the "Auto Motion Plus" this is a feature that looks at the current frame and the next frame and "paints" a frame that is between the two. It reduces blur in sports, which is great in hockey for tracking the puck, but can make other images seem a little fake. I say try it both ways and see if you notice/can live with it either way.

Plasma are 600hz which means it "paints" the picture 10 times. Go to Costco or Best Buy or better yet Living Spaces (I am not saying buy form any of these places or not) and compare them side by side. I suggested living spaces because you can maybe get someone to put sports on the TVs or turn on/off the motion correction features. Look at the pictures and judge. Most TVs are pretty good and it comes down to personal taste. Do you like whiter whites or blacker blacks.

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Old
11-24-2010, 04:47 PM
  #43
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The 600hz "refresh rate" on a plasma isn't really the same as 120hz on an LCD. When using the full 120hz capacity on an LCD, you get the "soap opera" effect which freaks a lot of people out, like it's "too real" or something. Many don't like this so be sure to get a 120hz that has dejuddering settings instead of only having the option to turn 120hz on or off.

The 600hz rate is just a marketing ploy for plasma tv's since everyone got caught up in 120hz. The real advantage for plasma over LCD is the inkier blacks and the faster response time of 3ms. The unwashed masses look at a tv in the showroom and pretty much choose the one that has the brightest picture which is a big reason LCD destroys plasmas in sales. Look at a Panasonic plasma, a great tv by the way, compared to an LCD at Best Buy and it's much, much darker.

I had a Mitsubishi DLP since early-2005 and finally upgraded this past spring. I will say that if you have the space, you can snag a 65-72 inch Mitsu DLP, 120hz and 3-D ready for at or under $1,000 probably. They have great black levels and are excellent for watching sports as well.

I picked the carcass that was Ken Crane's about 2 weeks before they announced they were closing shop. Picked up a 52-inch, 120hz Mitsubishi LCD with integrated 16-speaker sound system and a great Velodyne sub woofer for 1700-something after tax. Got the tv for $1499 but I wanted to see if Paul's would match and they almost laughed me off the phone stating that $1499 is what they sell the 46-inch floor model for. Mitsubishi uses Samsung LCD panels in its LCDs which is comforting since Samsung is sort of considered the top LCD-maker in the market.

Back to the point though, I have the 120hz cranked up full blast at all times since you don't buy a Ferrari to drive 55 mph. Hockey looks effing fantastic and is a huge step up from watching in HD on my 2004 DLP model so I'm sure you will flip moving from CRT to a 2010 HD model.

I would seriously look at the Panasonic plasma though. I was going to get that until I found this deal on the Mitsubishi too good to pass up. They can be had at a great price along with being 3-D ready...probably get some glasses thrown in as well. They probably have internet connectivity as well with widgets built in. I know most videophiles prefer plasma but maybe that is changing. Videophiles love the black levels to be as black as possible.

Also, this site is great for any and all research on this subject: http://avsforum.com

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11-24-2010, 04:57 PM
  #44
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Awesome info BigKing.

I think I'm leaning towards getting the 55" LED Samsung and nabbing a 46" Panasonic Plasma to save for a month as a christmas present to the girlfriend... which is really just for the other bedroom... and to put her mind at ease that if we were to ever break up she won't be TV-less, lol.

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11-25-2010, 01:25 AM
  #45
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The unwashed masses look at a tv in the showroom and pretty much choose the one that has the brightest picture which is a big reason LCD destroys plasmas in sales. Look at a Panasonic plasma, a great tv by the way, compared to an LCD at Best Buy and it's much, much darker.[/URL]
This is yet another beef I have with showrooms. The signal they send to these TV's is far from optimal, and they do absolutely no tweaking of settings to make the images comparable. I saw a plasma with washed out blacks next to an LED-LCD, which had nice, inky blacks. I checked the menu and the contrast was way down, while the LED was cranked.

When I check out TV's I have the salesman hook up a blu-ray and let me mess with the settings. You wont be able to calibrate properly, but you can set the brightness/contrast until the whites don't get any whiter and the blacks don't get any blacker. Most places are willing to let you do this if you are down to a couple models. It's not perfect, but you will be able to judge which TV looks better to you. The blu-ray will give you identical signals of the same quality, leaving the TV itself as the only difference.

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11-25-2010, 02:02 AM
  #46
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I took the plunge today.

Bought a 54" Panasonic Plasma VT25... I saw a demo of hockey in 3D and decided I had to be prepared for when they start to broadcast it.

Haven't hooked it up yet. I have a nice 2 months to try it out to decide if I want to return it. Also the Guy gave me the black Friday deal. Definitely more money than I planned on spending but I got a 3D blueray player and two pairs of glasses with it for less than the normal price of the TV.

I still may decide to return it for the 2D model but I'm excited to try it out! Glad I didn't get it earlier and waste the maiden viewing on That abortion of a game today.

Thanks for all your help everyone!

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11-25-2010, 11:57 AM
  #47
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I took the plunge today.

Bought a 54" Panasonic Plasma VT25... I saw a demo of hockey in 3D and decided I had to be prepared for when they start to broadcast it.

Haven't hooked it up yet. I have a nice 2 months to try it out to decide if I want to return it. Also the Guy gave me the black Friday deal. Definitely more money than I planned on spending but I got a 3D blueray player and two pairs of glasses with it for less than the normal price of the TV.

I still may decide to return it for the 2D model but I'm excited to try it out! Glad I didn't get it earlier and waste the maiden viewing on That abortion of a game today.

Thanks for all your help everyone!
I just looked through the ads today and wow...there are some sweet deals.

http://www.paulstv.com/LCD-Televisio...hi-LT55154.asp

Fry's has this year's Mitsubishi Unisen 55" LED for $997. That is a crazy price. Granted, it's the lower end model in the series but I think that is mainly due to only having 12 integrated speakers as opposed to 16. Either way, that tv retails usually over $2,000.

Paul's ad talks about saving up to $799 on Mitsubishi Diamond Series DLP's while also throwing in a free PS3 system; however, the tv shown next to this offer is the Unisen LCD of 2009 which I have so that's confusing. If they are throwing up to $800 off on the Unisen LCD while tossing in a PS3, I'd be going to Paul's if I were you JDM just to see what's up. I know you bought a good tv but if you don't have a PS3 or Blu-ray player, then this is a sweet deal as it's a gorgeous television.

I don't know your living situation but the Unisen has an integrated, 5.1 "surround sound" speaker system in the television. You get a powered subwoofer and you have a decent sound system for a small area as you don't have 5 or 7 speakers all over your room.

If anyone is looking for a big tv and doesn't care about putting it up on the wall, Fry's has a 60" Mitsubishi DLP for $597. That is a lot of tv for $600, espaecially for one that is 3-D ready. Panasonic plasmas are really priced to move at all retailers as well since the public has sort of shunned them for LCD and LED. For example, Paul's is selling a 50" Samsung plasma for $1399 while throwing in 2 pairs of 3-D glasses and a free Fuji 3-D digital camera which is valued at $599. Damn I love Paul's.

And Fishhead, I agree with you about showrooms. I always do research on the internet first before going out there so I know what to look for. When I go to Best Buy, I know more about the tv I'm looking at then the salesman does which is good for when they try to sell you a $60 HDMI cable. I totally went gung-ho on my first big screen purchase and bought Monster, THX-certified COMPONENT CABLES for my 2004 DLP. $100 cable! Why!?!? Not saying the quality of cable can't make a difference but with HDMI, as long as you aren't using a really long cable, it's really negligible.

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11-25-2010, 06:16 PM
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TonySCV
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Best buy has 42" panasonic plasmas on sale for $499 and 50" for $599. Available online. Crazy good deal.

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11-26-2010, 02:54 PM
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Hooked up my TV last night. Haven't gone through calibration yet, but holy ****ing hell is it incredible!

I think 54" might be a tad too large for my room... lol... or not... my bedroom is now basically a movie theater! Once I get a surround sound system I may never leave the house.

Tested out some NHL on the Fly... Montreal's broadcast was noticeably better than the rest, but then again there wasn't much going on last night. Also watched bits of Avatar and some other stuff in HD... holy crap.

Tried out the 3D with Ice Age: Dawn of Dinosaurs, which came with the TV... so torn... the glasses are annoying as hell, but it was such an interesting and cool experience to watch it that way in my room.

Now I'm off to go grab a bunch of cheap blu-rays this weekend!

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11-26-2010, 04:02 PM
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Which cables from monoprice.com do you guys suggest? I don't need anything longer than 6-10ft tops.

I was about to grab these from newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882816045

Nippon Labs cables, 7 bucks each. Seems good. Can anyone give me a reason to buy a cable other than these?

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