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Old
11-25-2010, 07:34 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Firing a GM mid season accomplishes what exactly? His crappy ass team will still be on the ice anyways. Fire his ass in the offseason.



Muckler's been gone for how long now? The mess we are in now is all on Murray. He hired two horrible coaches, not Muckler. He set this franchise back by making a stupid meaningless push for the playoffs when were 10 points out that could have gotten us a Duchesne or even Tavares instead of Cowen, not Muckler. He traded away one of our best players (Heatley) for Michalek, not Muckler, etc.
No its not all murrays some of this blame does go on mucks has he left murray with a awful farm system etc.As a rule you don't feel the impact of a gm untill a couple years after the have left.Yes murray has made some mistakes but its not all his fault if he had a half decent farm system when he took over we would be in better shape.Don't forget heatley had very low value yes they could have kept him and tried to bring his value back up.

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11-25-2010, 07:40 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
No its not all murrays some of this blame does go on mucks has he left murray with a awful farm system etc.As a rule you don't feel the impact of a gm untill a couple years after the have left.Yes murray has made some mistakes but its not all his fault if he had a half decent farm system when he took over we would be in better shape.Don't forget heatley had very low value yes they could have kept him and tried to bring his value back up.
Explain to me how a better farm system makes Murray hire better coaches? How does a better farm system prevents a GM from making dumb decisions like sacrificing the long term betterment of the franchise by making a meaningless run for the playoffs?

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Old
11-25-2010, 07:42 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Broken Tier View Post
Defenders gonna defend.

Fire his ass already. Pitiful to see what he's done to our once proud franchise.
Haters gonna hate

Muckler destroyed any future this franchise had. The Murrays are rebuilding it.

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Old
11-25-2010, 07:47 AM
  #54
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Implebit ruinas, conquassabit capita in terra multorum

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Old
11-25-2010, 07:58 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Explain to me how a better farm system makes Murray hire better coaches? How does a better farm system prevents a GM from making dumb decisions like sacrificing the long term betterment of the franchise by making a meaningless run for the playoffs?
No i agree with the coaches murray really did not hurt the long term future of the team.

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Old
11-25-2010, 08:02 AM
  #56
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if only murray would coach this team....to me they respect and play a ton for him and he has a good system....i think the issue is clouston and not that hes a bad coach but hes a coach like hitchcock or andy murray and cant be on a team for a while cause it looses its message

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Old
11-25-2010, 08:05 AM
  #57
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If only Clouston sucked earlier, Laviolette would have not been a bad option.

I don't know what other options there are currently, but we already have a bad reputation with coaches.

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Old
11-25-2010, 08:12 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by pt_mck View Post
Yup pretty much this,

Yet another game where Clouston gets out-cooached he is just not maximizing the value of his players

The team is not perfect but they are pretty inconsistent and underachieving that's pith poor coaching.

Yes Murray picked the coach, big deal, coaches are hired to be fired
Are you kidding me?

You'd give Murray a 4th coach... how many coaches does he get? A new one every year... unbelievable.

There is no way he can justify another coach and keep his job. That makes me happy

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Old
11-25-2010, 08:23 AM
  #59
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There is a reason you don't see many GMs let go or stepping down in the middle of the season. It does little more than make bad situations even more chaotic.

If Melnyk does want to go in a new direction, Murray will most likely finish out the season, handle the next draft and then go quietly into the night or take on another role.

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Old
11-25-2010, 08:35 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by rodwan553 View Post
If only Clouston sucked earlier, Laviolette would have not been a bad option.

I don't know what other options there are currently, but we already have a bad reputation with coaches.
I was really, really wishing we got Laviolette in. That guy seems to be able to bring a team to greatness.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Explain to me how a better farm system makes Murray hire better coaches? How does a better farm system prevents a GM from making dumb decisions like sacrificing the long term betterment of the franchise by making a meaningless run for the playoffs?
While I tend to agree with you, I suspect that the push for the playoffs had a lot to do with Melnyk. That guy has drive and wants to ice the best team, and I would wager that Murray's balls were in a noose on that one. I still don't like his moves aside from his drafting. After firing a second coach, Murray should have went for a proven winner, none of this experiment stuff.
I think it's really hurt our team. I think a big shake up needs to happen in order to get these boys in gear. We've come to expect such great things from this team and mediocrity just wont fly. We're not the leafs after all

edit: I'm surprised Bryan didn't hire his brother (coach of the kings - hired in 08)


Last edited by TheBandWagon: 11-25-2010 at 09:04 AM.
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Old
11-25-2010, 08:38 AM
  #61
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We are far more Sensible.
I see what you did there

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Old
11-25-2010, 08:44 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by backdoorpass View Post
if only murray would coach this team....to me they respect and play a ton for him and he has a good system....i think the issue is clouston and not that hes a bad coach but hes a coach like hitchcock or andy murray and cant be on a team for a while cause it looses its message
Murray is a control freak and that's why all the coaches he hired where inferior to him coaching wise. If he hired good coaches and this team made the second/third round of the playoffs each year he would not have had the draft picks he did to rebuild the farm system. Everybody wanted him to hire a good veteran coach and he hired Hartsburg and Clouston.

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Old
11-25-2010, 08:47 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Are you kidding me?

You'd give Murray a 4th coach... how many coaches does he get? A new one every year... unbelievable.

There is no way he can justify another coach and keep his job. That makes me happy
John Paddock simply took over a team that murray became GM of. It was a simple change that didn't shake up a good team that had just maed a run to the finals. I'm not completely sure it was only Murray's decision at time. Melnyk was obviously making some bold moves at the time, trying to build a team that could consistantly make a run at the cup, as opposed to Mucklers plan of selling the farm for one chance. So the move was made to axe Muckler and move Murray into that position, Paddock was the obvious choice to take over behind the bench.
As it turned out paddock didn't have a clue what he was doing and Murray stepped back behind the bench in an attempt to salvage a season.
Yes Hartsburg was murray's next choice as coach. So we have to label him with that one.
Clouston took over on an interm basis to finish out a season where we all new the playoffs were out of reach. Because of the job that clouston did at the end of that season, he earned the job going forward. If Clouston had of been replaced after the interm job, you guys would have went crazy on this site. Every single person believed that he was the man for the job after the way he coached the team down the stretch and brought a little respectability back to the team. Clouston wasn't necessarily hand picked by Murray, he took over a team and earned his role. I agree with the extension of a contract for Clouston. He did a great job last year, and i think most will agree that if not for some injuries, we certainly would have reached the 2nd round.
The team may be struggling now, maybe that has alot to do Clouston. The point is, Clouston wasn't the wrong hire. Not every coach survives 2-3 years. Clouston has done a good job so far. Maybe he can still turn this team around, but at the end of the day he was the right guy at the time. I really only pin Hartsburg on Murray. Paddock was part of Melnyks plan.

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:13 AM
  #64
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The heir appearant to Muckler was Chiarilli,when Muckler semed to want to stay on and when Melnyk signalled that he might be going in another direction, then he went to Boston.Murray seems to have impressed Melnyk eraly on and seems to have his ear now.

Boston seems to be doing ok.

Bringing in Paddock was not really an obvious move, usually the asst to head coach doesnt work.

There is an interesting article in the Globe regarding Ottawa's struggles,the GM but mostly the coach:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1812779/

They talk about streaky goal scorers and streaky goaltenders but never about streaky coaches.

And yet, as much as anything else that can be plucked from the thin air surrounding the Ottawa Senators these days, it may be as good an explanation as any.

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:18 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
The heir appearant to Muckler was Chiarilli [...]
Boston seems to be doing ok.
Seriously. When I see the return Chiarelli got for an unsigned, 'haven't really proven anything' player in Kessel, I wonder what he could have gotten for Heatley?

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:26 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Seriously. When I see the return Chiarelli got for an unsigned, 'haven't really proven anything' player in Kessel, I wonder what he could have gotten for Heatley?
Kessel didn't have a NTC. People seem to forget that little fact and Heatley was going to choose where he wanted to play.

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:29 AM
  #67
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If there was a way to keep Murray happy and move him to scouting, I think I might be inclined to look into this.

The reason for me personally, is there are some tough decisions to be made if this team continues to play like this.

The old guard like Mike Fisher and Chris Phillips will have to be looked at. Can we afford to keep these guys in the fold? If not, we might need a fresh perspective from a GM outside the organization who won't be tied down to sentimentality.

It sucks, but this team hasn't been able to score since the final year Heatley was here and it's getting really frustrating.

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:31 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Seriously. When I see the return Chiarelli got for an unsigned, 'haven't really proven anything' player in Kessel, I wonder what he could have gotten for Heatley?
Would Chiarelli have been able to take off the handcuffs that Heatley put on him? Heatley was also a 7 million dollar player not an unsigned RFA like Kessel.

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:42 AM
  #69
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I hate that BM gets a pass on the Heatley deal. Regardless of the NTC that Heatley had, BM held all the cards because quite frankly if there wasn't a deal that worked he should have forced Heatley to come to camp. He had the Olympics to hang over his head AND he had the fact that Heatley was going to have to come to camp and face his teammates, media and the fans day in and day out. If he truly wanted to leave he would have showed up, worked hard, and given Ottawa more options.

I had been a supporter of BMs for a while but the direction this team has taken under his leadership is frightening (it would be foolish to not at least acknowledge Muckler's moves as being a hinderance to BM). At the end of the day every one is accountable and BM is no different - the fact of the matter is as GM of this team his results are: 2 playoff appearances (with a record of 2-8), a missed playoff (including a terrible decision to go for it when it was evident to most that the playoffs were out of reach), and now the team sits in 9th place. He's hired 3 coaches and fired 2 of them.

His staff drafts well, that's great. That in itself is nowhere near enough to keep him on board in my opinion...in fact I'd table that a guy like Paul Fenton or Jim Nill would bring a strong staff with them (or even keep some of the scouting staff in place as is today).

My biggest fear is that if this team keeps sliding that he goes out and makes some moves that hurt the franchise over the long run all for the sake of a short term benefit to him (saving his job).

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out Murray!

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Old
11-25-2010, 09:46 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by JoeSakic View Post
I hate that BM gets a pass on the Heatley deal. Regardless of the NTC that Heatley had, BM held all the cards because quite frankly if there wasn't a deal that worked he should have forced Heatley to come to camp. He had the Olympics to hang over his head AND he had the fact that Heatley was going to have to come to camp and face his teammates, media and the fans day in and day out. If he truly wanted to leave he would have showed up, worked hard, and given Ottawa more options.

I had been a supporter of BMs for a while but the direction this team has taken under his leadership is frightening (it would be foolish to not at least acknowledge Muckler's moves as being a hinderance to BM). At the end of the day every one is accountable and BM is no different - the fact of the matter is as GM of this team his results are: 2 playoff appearances (with a record of 2-8), a missed playoff (including a terrible decision to go for it when it was evident to most that the playoffs were out of reach), and now the team sits in 9th place. He's hired 3 coaches and fired 2 of them.

His staff drafts well, that's great. That in itself is nowhere near enough to keep him on board in my opinion...in fact I'd table that a guy like Paul Fenton or Jim Nill would bring a strong staff with them (or even keep some of the scouting staff in place as is today).

My biggest fear is that if this team keeps sliding that he goes out and makes some moves that hurt the franchise over the long run all for the sake of a short term benefit to him (saving his job).

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out Murray!
Murray did not hold all the cards heatley did yes he should have said report to camp.

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Old
11-25-2010, 10:05 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Explain to me how a better farm system makes Murray hire better coaches? How does a better farm system prevents a GM from making dumb decisions like sacrificing the long term betterment of the franchise by making a meaningless run for the playoffs?
No run at the playoffs is meaningless, ever. Maybe you are taking a cup or tank outlook?

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Old
11-25-2010, 10:07 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Stylizer1 View Post
Murray is a control freak and that's why all the coaches he hired where inferior to him coaching wise. If he hired good coaches and this team made the second/third round of the playoffs each year he would not have had the draft picks he did to rebuild the farm system. Everybody wanted him to hire a good veteran coach and he hired Hartsburg and Clouston.
THIS team just isn't good enough to go deep in the playoffs, even if Scotty Bowman in his prime was the coach.

Fans can play the blame game all they want, but this team relies on Spezza, Alfie and now Kovalev to score, when they don't the Sens lose. The only way to fix this is through the expensive UFA process or getting talent through the draft.

People are dreaming if they think any GM can get Stamkos, Crosby, Staal, or any young offensive talented player through trade, those guys get tied up long term.

This team was torn apart by Muckler, trading Hossa, Havlat, and letting Chara walk. Add to that Muckler's drafting and trades, the results have now come home to roost.

His first round draft record alone:
'03 Patrick Eaves - passed on Bergeron, Carle, Weber
'04 Andrej Meszaros - possibly his best pick, yet passed on Green
'05 Brian Lee - passed on Kopitar, Staal, Hanzal, Rask
'06 Nick Foligno - passed on Neuvirth, McGinn, Kulemin, Lucic

Is it any wonder this team has no outstanding youth to assist the core?? Fans laugh at Burke trading two firsts and a second for Kessel. Muckler basical gave three of four of the Sens away, yet somehow fail to see the impact on today's team.

While the fans may have missed Muckler's failings, Melnyk did not. So Muckler went, he hired Murray to rebuild the franchise, it appears he is doing just that based on the growth in the prospects pool.

The current group just isn't good enough, even taking into account injuries. Foligno and Winchester aren't developing, and offer little trade value. The only possibility of improving this group immediately, trade prospects for proven talent.

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Old
11-25-2010, 10:11 AM
  #73
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I don't really think Murray has done a horrible job. My biggest beefs with him are:

(a) He can't fix the goalie mess. Hopefully Lehner is the guy, but Leclaire and Elliott seem average and it shows a bit more now that our defense isn't so defense orientated.

(b) He's too reactionary. Last year our D struggled to provide offense, so he goes overboard and now we struggle in our own zone. Same thing happened when we supposedly lacked 'grit'. Now we lack skill because we're loaded with gritty 3rd & 4th liners.

I still think this team is okay though. We need the defense to play better, both defensively and offensively. That will be the key. We could also use an above average goaltender, but I don't think that'll happen.

I still say we need to give it more time. Let Kuba settle in, let Phillips and Gonchar mesh, let Karlsson remove his head from his ass. If our D improves, we're fine. If not, we're eff'd.

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Old
11-25-2010, 10:12 AM
  #74
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Alright so what are a GMs main responsibilities, and how has Murray been at these? (BTW 2-4 are all interrelated so don't get whiny if I reference the same thing a couple of times)

1) Hire coaches
He's been bad at this. I'm pretty sure he just hires them based on how good a scapegoat they'll make. I guess Clouston was alright for a while.
Grade: D-

2) Draft
A lot of people think he's been good at this, but he's had 4 drafts and 1 draftee is on the NHL roster. In fairness it's still early for a lot of these guys but for a team that's lacked depth, the fact that only 1 guy has managed to make the roster doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. He also does a poor job of acquiring picks and trades them away as if they are literally lottery tickets. Fewer picks = less good players drafted.
Grade: C (Karlsson bumps it up from a D)

3) Contracts
He overpays everyone (in years and/or dollars) and tacks NTC's on like it's nothing. He's negotiated maybe 2 contracts that haven't been an overpayment of some sort. And don't try to feed me some BS about how he has to overpay people to get them to sign here. If that's the case then he should be trading these guys away and putting more money into the farm system, because the money will be better spent there.
Grade: F

4) Trades
I guess that Meszaros trade ended up alright. All the other ones have been crap. I understand Heatley kind of screwed Murray over with that trade request but Murray set himself up for it by throwing a NMC on the contract and announcing to everyone that Heatley had requested a trade. He also should have grown a pair and told Heatley he wasn't going to get traded unless they ripped up the NMC. So he messed up in regards to the NMC twice.
Grade: D-

5) Player Relations
Awful. Embarrasses his players by criticizing them in the media, reveals private conversations with his players... Every time he trades a roster player he insists that the player requested a trade. So he's either lying about that, which makes him a jerk, or he's telling the truth, which means players don't like him, which makes him a jerk. He just seems like a self serving, untrustworthy guy who's really looking to cover his own ass instead of doing what's best for the team.
Grade: F-

Overall
F. Yeah it's not the average of all the grades but the team is mediocre and it doesn't like like it'll improve in the near future. They might stay in the 14-18th in the league range for a few more years before they become bottom feeders after Alfie gets too old to play and Fisher, Neil, Gonchar and Phillips (after his inevitable bad contract is signed) all pass their expiry dates (while still taking up like 40% of the cap of course).

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Old
11-25-2010, 10:13 AM
  #75
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I know this will probably not happen, but I say Euge lets BM retire or move upstairs, leaves Tim Murray in charge of the minors.

Then you find out whatever the Red Wings are paying JIM NILL and triple, quadruple it to bring him on board. He worked for the Sens way back in the past and maybe he's ready to come back and fix this mediocre team.

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