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Old
11-25-2010, 12:21 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Team goes to the finals last year and the GM gets no credit. Must be dumb luck huh? Team is doing very well again this year again must be dumb luck. I call it like I see it. You are not going to change my mind. Homer is one of the better GM's in the league. Period.
Everyone thought we were thin on D and had no goaltending. All his moves were criticized. As I said back then time will tell. So far the moves look pretty dam good do they not? 1/2 empty vs half full Go Flyers
Devils (owned)

Boston (couldn't score)

Montreal (average height 5'2" and minus their best player)

...is dumb luck outside the control of Paul Holmgren.

Bobrovsky, who the GM did not expect to be on the big club, tearing it up to start the year... lucky result.

The moves that were specifically criticized:

1) The Leighton contract: still *ing stupid.

2) Jody Shelley's contract: still *ing stupid.

3) Matt Walker and his contract: remind me, how much has he contributed to this point?

4) The long-term ramifications of spending so much on D... you're focused on the short-term, so you, similar to Holmgren, don't care much about that.

5) The situation in goal for a cup contender... it's way too early to tell if Bobrovsky is going to have that in him.

I don't know, I think one of the "better GMs in the league" would have managed to get home ice out of this team at this point. Given that the 82 game schedule is a FAR better measure of the job a GM does than the dumb luck that is the playoffs (and, yes, the playoffs are all about dumb luck: who gets hot when; avoiding injuries; match ups; and plenty of other factors that GMs--and teams--have no control over).

But, the point remains, no one around here didn't expect this team to have a great deal of regular season success. We did last year, too.

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11-25-2010, 12:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Devils (owned) 1/2 empty

Boston (couldn't score)1/2 empty

Montreal (average height 5'2" and minus their best player) we had no players hurt

...is dumb luck outside the control of Paul Holmgren.

Bobrovsky, who the GM did not expect to be on the big club, tearing it up to start the year... lucky result.

The moves that were specifically criticized:

1) The Leighton contract: still *ing stupid. True

2) Jody Shelley's contract: still *ing stupid. True

3) Matt Walker and his contract: remind me, how much has he contributed to this point?
How is Gagne doing?
4) The long-term ramifications of spending so much on D... you're focused on the short-term, so you, similar to Holmgren, don't care much about that. Wrong

5) The situation in goal for a cup contender... it's way too early to tell if Bobrovsky is going to have that in him. True

I don't know, I think one of the "better GMs in the league" would have managed to get home ice out of this team at this point. Given that the 82 game schedule is a FAR better measure of the job a GM does than the dumb luck that is the playoffs (and, yes, the playoffs are all about dumb luck: who gets hot when; avoiding injuries; match ups; and plenty of other factors that GMs--and teams--have no control over).

But, the point remains, no one around here didn't expect this team to have a great deal of regular season success. We did last year, too.
Read Frank Seravalli's piece today, see item # 4

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11-25-2010, 12:34 PM
  #53
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I hate when you people assume us Holmgren critics have to eat crow because we are good. Did we ever say we weren't going to be good? Despite my complaining to my friends during the offseason, I always ended with "don't get me wrong, I think we've improved."

I've said it in every Homer thread I've been in:

The ends don't justify the means. Just because we are awesome, and we are, doesn't mean everything that led up to this is flawless.

It also isn't being a hater to think we are good, but we could be better, should a few things have happened differently/not happened at all.

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11-25-2010, 12:42 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Read Frank Seravalli's piece today, see item # 4
We are losing one of our D next year... no matter what. You realize that, right?

Sergei Bobrovsky played 35 games last year. Total. Right now he's on pace to play ~85 games if we're going to win the Cup.

This time of year in '05-'06, Clarke looked like a *ing genius for signing Hatcher and Rathje to those deals. How'd that work out?

Really need to slow down on the popsicle sucking around here... or at least be conscious of the fact that the Flyers have been one of the best teams in hockey over the last 30+ years and don't have a Cup to show for it.

And thanks for completely ignoring the fact that the centerpiece criticisms of Holmgren haven't changed and/or affected the team this year.

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11-25-2010, 12:54 PM
  #55
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I say enjoy this for as long as possible before the inevitable 2-month slump kicks in that happens to pretty much any team that's gone to the Finals over the past 15 years.

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11-25-2010, 01:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We are losing one of our D next year... no matter what. You realize that, right?

Sergei Bobrovsky played 35 games last year. Total. Right now he's on pace to play ~85 games if we're going to win the Cup.

This time of year in '05-'06, Clarke looked like a *ing genius for signing Hatcher and Rathje to those deals. How'd that work out?

Really need to slow down on the popsicle sucking around here... or at least be conscious of the fact that the Flyers have been one of the best teams in hockey over the last 30+ years and don't have a Cup to show for it.

And thanks for completely ignoring the fact that the centerpiece criticisms of Holmgren haven't changed and/or affected the team this year.


So you have to resort to Popsicle sucking You crack me up. You can try to spew all the BS you want. Enjoy your half empty glass of cheer today. If you are going to suck on a Popsicle I suggest sugar free.
Happy Thanksgiving Go Flyers
PS the Flyers have most likely been the best team in the NHL since 1967 during the regular season as far as franchise winning percentages go and only have two cups to show for it.
Ed Snider wants to win and who can blame him. I have to spend time with family and friends now. Hope you can do the same. Happy Thanksgiving. Note: I suggest some cheese with your half glass of whine.

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11-25-2010, 01:04 PM
  #57
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Holmgren is like Tallon. Did a good job building, but cap management is so bad we'll end up losing key pieces

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11-25-2010, 01:04 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SeanVT395 View Post
I love how reactive Flyers fans are, as soon as we lose a couple games it'll go the opposite fast

Don't get me wrong i've been a fan for 10+ years now and I just try to stay realistic, this is definitely the best Flyers team since '04. I thought for sure we were going to the cup when Primeau tied game 6 that year....
Very true.


In actuality we are a 5 game losing streak away from being out of a playoff spot.

Don't get me wrong, I love this run we are on but we need to keep it in stride.


It is also worth noting the lack of key injuries this year.

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11-25-2010, 01:12 PM
  #59
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The Flyers got off to a fantastic start last year too and we needed a shootout win just to get into the playoffs. I am not saying that will happen again. Just saying. I love the way this team is playing right now. But IMO I just cant see this group keeping this scoring pace up. This team is on pace to score 300 goals. No way we keep that pace up, even that loaded Hawks team last year managed "just" 271. They will slow down the pace. Its just a matter of whether Bobrovsky, Boucher and Leighton can play well enough to win hockey games for us. The most telling thing will be when they go on that long road trip later next month. We have benefited from a favorable schedule with a majority of games at home. Might be better to re-evaluate things around the allstar break.


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11-25-2010, 01:17 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I hate when you people assume us Holmgren critics have to eat crow because we are good. Did we ever say we weren't going to be good? Despite my complaining to my friends during the offseason, I always ended with "don't get me wrong, I think we've improved."

I've said it in every Homer thread I've been in:

The ends don't justify the means. Just because we are awesome, and we are, doesn't mean everything that led up to this is flawless.

It also isn't being a hater to think we are good, but we could be better, should a few things have happened differently/not happened at all.
Word.


I know kids who grew up great in spite of horrible parenting. Homer is like the bad parent, and the Flyers are the kid.

The Randy Jones mess will never be forgotten and the Walker/Shelly offseason is one to forget. Just like the Metropolit/Vannenen off season preceeding it.

Having a little hot streak now is not an excuse for horrid moves like sending Umberger packing, hiring idiot stick, trading a first rounder for Emminger and all the other miriad of moves I've hated.

I admit the OKT for Leino deal impresses me big time but I feel that where he and his team need praise is in their scouting and drafting. Look at the key pieces of this team right now and see how many of them are either draft picks or undrafted fa signings. When is the last time this team bombed on a first round draft pick? It sure makes me wonder who we could have had instead of Emminger that's for sure.

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Old
11-25-2010, 01:29 PM
  #61
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You and me both.
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
I make an effort not to be too bi-polar. I've been the one sticking up for Homer most of the summer/season.
It's early in the season, all of the points I made in criticism of him over the Summer I still believe to be true.

But I will eat crow regarding whether or not Meszaros is a 4 million dollar defenseman, and whether or not Gagne had anything left in the tank. It isn't looking good on that front unfortunately.

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11-25-2010, 01:41 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
Word.


I know kids who grew up great in spite of horrible parenting. Homer is like the bad parent, and the Flyers are the kid.

The Randy Jones mess will never be forgotten and the Walker/Shelly offseason is one to forget. Just like the Metropolit/Vannenen off season preceeding it.

Having a little hot streak now is not an excuse for horrid moves like sending Umberger packing, hiring idiot stick, trading a first rounder for Emminger and all the other miriad of moves I've hated.

I admit the OKT for Leino deal impresses me big time but I feel that where he and his team need praise is in their scouting and drafting. Look at the key pieces of this team right now and see how many of them are either draft picks or undrafted fa signings. When is the last time this team bombed on a first round draft pick? It sure makes me wonder who we could have had instead of Emminger that's for sure.
I though Umberger move was fine. Got a mid first for him, and we couldnt really afford to keep him at the time.

Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo sucked, and only happened because he couldnt manage the LTIR with the cap.

Also trading a 2nd with Gauthier instead of leaving him in the AHL was stupid. Same with Jones rentry waiver fiasco

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Old
11-25-2010, 02:19 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
Word.

I know kids who grew up great in spite of horrible parenting. Homer is like the bad parent, and the Flyers are the kid.

The Randy Jones mess will never be forgotten and the Walker/Shelly offseason is one to forget. Just like the Metropolit/Vannenen off season preceeding it.

Having a little hot streak now is not an excuse for horrid moves like sending Umberger packing, hiring idiot stick, trading a first rounder for Emminger and all the other miriad of moves I've hated.

I admit the OKT for Leino deal impresses me big time but I feel that where he and his team need praise is in their scouting and drafting. Look at the key pieces of this team right now and see how many of them are either draft picks or undrafted fa signings. When is the last time this team bombed on a first round draft pick? It sure makes me wonder who we could have had instead of Emminger that's for sure.
For heaven's sake, exhale and let it go. Comparing Homer to a bad parent? . This is his team and if you love it, you have to give him the credit. He built it directly or oversaw the scouting/drafting before Clarke left. He made the deals, he signed the players. He did so on the advice of good people he hired to advise him. That's good management.

Is there anyone seriously grieving the loss of nobodies like Metropolit and Vaananen or the fact that, faced with the departures or injuries to almost all his D corp, he signed Jones for some continuity so as not to start the year with no returning D?

Eminger was a calculated risk, like Leino, Carle, Coburn and Meszaros, among others. Most of Homer's moves work out, so it's really not worth sweating the what ifs. If all the other GMs had his success rate, we wouldn't have such a good record now.

We're in first overall at the quarter pole - without our #1 goalie. We've got the best top 6 D in the league, three lines that score, a fourth we can put out against anyone, a goon with great dekes, lots of young talent in the pipeline ready to fill in now or later.

Poor Homer, with the crew of people that follows his team, he'll probably get assassinated at the Cup parade by a guy in a Tollefson shirt....

Be thankful, it's Thanksgiving after all.

Cheers!


Last edited by HoverCarle*: 11-25-2010 at 06:10 PM.
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Old
11-25-2010, 02:54 PM
  #64
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We shouldn't have even gotten past the second round last year and the Habs were like the best possible matchup for us in the third. Last year's playoffs were entirely about luck for us. We gained our best winger in Gagne and the Bruins lost their best forward in Krejci in the span of one game. If that doesn't happen then there's no doubt in my mind that we don't come back from 0-3.

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11-25-2010, 04:00 PM
  #65
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Maybe, but we're at 3.61 GPG right now, and that's like 296 goal pace... really hard to score 300 in the modern NHL.
I think it's 3.65 GPG (84/23), which leads to 299.4, and 2.43 GA (56/23), which leads to 199.6. I rounded both up. Of course, it's silly to think the team will continue to average 3.65 GPG throughout the season, or that the spread between GF and GA will be 100 (1.2 per game). But it's nice to dream.

Quote:
This team needs to avoid it's annual late winter swoon.
Naturally. For as long as I've been a fan, the Flyers have looked like the best team in the league from Halloween through December. Mediocre start in October, huge hot streak from like Game 10-30, then injuries and cold streaks and the long holiday road trip all hit, and they're 6th or 7th in the East, then they get hot again around the trade deadline. It's freaky how often it has happened.

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11-25-2010, 04:34 PM
  #66
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For heaven's sake, exhale and let it go. Comparing Homer to a bad parent? Pathetic really. Grow up. This is his team and if you love it, you have to give him the credit. He built it directly or oversaw the scouting/drafting before Clarke left. He made the deals, he signed the players. He did so on the advice of good people he hired to advise him. That's good management.

Is there anyone seriously grieving the loss of nobodies like Metropolit and Vaananen or the fact that, faced with the departures or injuries to almost all his D corp, he signed Jones for some continuity so as not to start the year with no returning D?

Eminger was a calculated risk, like Leino, Carle, Coburn and Meszaros, among others. Most of Homer's moves work out, so it's really not worth sweating the what ifs. If all the other GMs had his success rate, we wouldn't have such a good record now.

We're in first overall at the quarter pole - without our #1 goalie. We've got the best top 6 D in the league, three lines that score, a fourth we can put out against anyone, a goon with great dekes, lots of young talent in the pipeline ready to fill in now or later.

Poor Homer, with the crew of psychos that follows his team, he'll probably get assassinated at the Cup parade by a guy in a Tollefson shirt....

Be thankful, it's Thanksgiving after all.

Cheers!
You're misunderstanding. I'm unbelievably thankful for this team...and said so at dinner haha. We are very, very, very good.

There are plenty of moves that Homer made that I like, just as there are plenty that I can't stand.

“The first sign of corruption in a society that is still alive, is that the end justifies the means”

You're copping out by pointing at the product and saying "look how good we are". That isn't the tell all of whether or not someone is doing a great job.

Being critical is not a bad thing. If we aren't looking to constantly improve in professional sports, we will be surpassed before we know it.

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11-25-2010, 04:52 PM
  #67
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I too really like the look of this team at the moment, but dont think its as good as the 04 team, we had three absolutely incredible lines that could be mixed and matched and still produce. Recchi, Leclair, Handzus, Roenick, Amonte, Gags, Primeau, Kapanen, with williams/comrie/zhamnov (hated the trade for comrie in hindsight, remember first reading about it in face-off magazine and being excited as he was young and coming off a good season, but we effectively threw away a 1st rounder for... sean burke and radivojevic did it work out as?!). A defence that was solid with pitkanen, johnsson, desjardins, markov, ragnarson (shame about the injuries on d, i think we would have won without the upheaval due to them). And esche... well a team cant be perfect. However, the team at the moment is almost as good on offence, better on defence, = on goalies when all things considered, and has an average age of about ten years younger, the 2004 team only had gags, pitkanen, handzus, johnsson and markov who were under thirty (im guessing), so even though that team was maybe better for a single season, this one is better for the forseeable future, next 4-5 years i think we have a legitimate shot at the cup every time (if we can walk the cap tight-rope). The team has looked damn good since about a month into lavi's time here, and we play nicer hockey to watch than under stevens.

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11-25-2010, 06:01 PM
  #68
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I remember one complaint I had about that 04 team: too many has-been big names who couldnt contribute in the POs.

Prims, Recchi, Kaps, Zeus contributed well. JR? Somewhat. And let's face it, Kapanen and Handzus at the tie were good players but not real top star talent. Kinda like really good third liners.

But Leclair, Zamnov, Amonte and Comrie were ALL past their due date.. they did not contribute enough.

Compare that to this year's crop. Richards, Carter, Giruoux and Briere right at the top of their games. Compare that four-some against the top 4 forwards of 04. Other than Prims, can you really say any of the others back then.. really matched up to the guys on now?

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11-25-2010, 11:27 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
I admit the OKT for Leino deal impresses me big time but I feel that where he and his team need praise is in their scouting and drafting. Look at the key pieces of this team right now and see how many of them are either draft picks or undrafted fa signings. When is the last time this team bombed on a first round draft pick? It sure makes me wonder who we could have had instead of Emminger that's for sure.
John Carlson. He was selected with the pick we traded to the Caps for Eminger. I'm still livid about the move, especially because Carlson is the guy I wanted the Flyers to draft. Go ahead, ask FlyHigh about it (just messing with you, Fly... but not really, haha).


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11-25-2010, 11:33 PM
  #70
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So you have to resort to Popsicle sucking You crack me up. You can try to spew all the BS you want. Enjoy your half empty glass of cheer today. If you are going to suck on a Popsicle I suggest sugar free.
Happy Thanksgiving Go Flyers
PS the Flyers have most likely been the best team in the NHL since 1967 during the regular season as far as franchise winning percentages go and only have two cups to show for it.
Ed Snider wants to win and who can blame him. I have to spend time with family and friends now. Hope you can do the same. Happy Thanksgiving. Note: I suggest some cheese with your half glass of whine.
It's a reference to Pulp Fiction edited for the children... too bad it went over your head.

And what "BS" did I spew? Please show one aspect of what I said that wasn't factually based.

YOU made comments about people criticizing the GM, and when I showed how none of those critiques have really been proven wrong to this point, you completely ignored 'em. Fact of the matter is that you're the one spewing BS, and rather than engage with the rebuttals to what you're saying, you link to a beat writer praising Holmgren and come back with an emoticon strewn piece of nothingness that is this post.

It's ever comical when folks accuse one of "BS" as they provide ZERO substantive statements.

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11-25-2010, 11:40 PM
  #71
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John Carlson. He was selected with the pick we traded to the Caps for Eminger. I'm still livid about the move, especially because Carlson is the guy I wanted the Flyers to draft. Go ahead, ask FlyHigh about it (just messing with you, Fly... but not really, haha).

The Eminger trade is just unbelievably painful in retrospect. Given that it ultimately cost us Downie as well.

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11-25-2010, 11:58 PM
  #72
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The Eminger trade is just unbelievably painful in retrospect. Given that it ultimately cost us Downie as well.
Wow, the leap of logic there is staggering. Downie was an attitude problem who needed getting rid of (I'm glad he's finally growing up a bit) and they threw Eminger in the package for Matt Carle - who is proving to be an excellent defenseman whether he's paired with Pronger, Coburn or whomever.

I'd do that trade again in a heartbeat any day of the week.

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11-26-2010, 01:24 AM
  #73
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Wow, the leap of logic there is staggering. Downie was an attitude problem who needed getting rid of (I'm glad he's finally growing up a bit) and they threw Eminger in the package for Matt Carle - who is proving to be an excellent defenseman whether he's paired with Pronger, Coburn or whomever.

I'd do that trade again in a heartbeat any day of the week.
It's really not a leap of logic. The moves were successive and one reactive to the other. Downie's problem wasn't attitude, it was John Stevens. In particular, it was how stupid John Stevens was, and how his dog house seemed to be a permanent destination once players apparently worked themselves into it. And Matt Carle is far from "excellent," which is especially true when away from Pronger.

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11-26-2010, 03:04 AM
  #74
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It's a reference to Pulp Fiction edited for the children... too bad it went over your head.

And what "BS" did I spew? Please show one aspect of what I said that wasn't factually based.

YOU made comments about people criticizing the GM, and when I showed how none of those critiques have really been proven wrong to this point, you completely ignored 'em. Fact of the matter is that you're the one spewing BS, and rather than engage with the rebuttals to what you're saying, you link to a beat writer praising Holmgren and come back with an emoticon strewn piece of nothingness that is this post.

It's ever comical when folks accuse one of "BS" as they provide ZERO substantive statements.
Poor court, nothing better to doYou just cannot stand it when someone does not agree with you If it is nothingness then why rebuttal? Like I said before we agree to disagree. Thats all, nothing more.Remember SUGAR FREE

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11-26-2010, 04:41 AM
  #75
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I really do not get Jester. His biggest complaint is that the team hasn't won a Cup in recent years and that this is the fault of management, and then he goes and argues that performance in the playoffs, and thus a Cup win, is entirely dependent on luck.

What. The. ****?!


Yes, Holmgren has done some dumb **** but he has also done a very good job making this team successful and competitive. Unfortunately all I ever see from the eternal pessimists in this forum is the entirely idiotic argument that when Holmgren does good, he's only lucky, and when Holmgren does bad, it's purely because of of Holmgren's ineptitude. It's an argument a la having your cake and eating it too.

The truth is that luck goes both ways, as do deliberate moves. There are examples of moves by Holmgren that have gone in either direction and can be chalked up to each of these factors in various degrees.

However, Holmgren has in fact done a great job.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
You're copping out by pointing at the product and saying "look how good we are". That isn't the tell all of whether or not someone is doing a great job.
This statement does make absolutely no sense. Please tell me a metric to judge the quality of the moves by a hockey GM, other than the performance of his team after the moves were completed.



The following comment is however not directed at you, DUHockey9, but at people like Kaktus, Jester and NWO:

I really do not get it anymore. When the Offseason happened, everybody was running around like chickens without heads, *****ing and moaning how bad the moves are and how we are going to suck and have all kinds of problems next season. A quarter of the season is over, we are the best team in the league and people still ***** and moan. I'm starting to think that you guys are never going to be happy and I'm growing suspicious that some of you'd rather have the return of a season from hell just so you'd have your ego vindicated.

**** Pessimism. That is all.


Last edited by chaosof99*: 11-26-2010 at 04:52 AM.
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