HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Sharks in on Marc-Andre Bergeron sweepstakes

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-26-2010, 02:58 PM
  #26
Led Zappa
Tomorrow Today!
 
Led Zappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Country: Scotland
Posts: 33,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
A PP-only specialist isn't a dman. The 6th dman normally gets 14-16min TOI even if he is a specialist. The rest of the dmen spread the minutes. A PP-only specialist will get 4min TOI as a dman max. That will add another 10min TOI to the other 5 dmen. Most teams that have a 6th dman getting under 10min TOI dress 7 dmen.

The hole in logic remains.
Did/do you have a problem when Demers played/plays as a forward?

I haven't seen enough of MAB to know whether he's worthy as a bottom 6 forward, but I don't see a big hole in this logic unless sucks as a forward and from his point totals when he's actually playing, it seems he couldn't be that bad. Unless he's getting like 80% of his points from the PP.

I am not advocating the move. Just trying to understand, because the logic does work unless he's a complete waist of space as a forward.

__________________

Youth Movement! Tally Ho...
Led Zappa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 02:59 PM
  #27
rangerssharks414
Registered User
 
rangerssharks414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 11,056
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Bergeron is not suited for what a normal bottom 6 role requires.
Very true. But if we want a puck moving defenseman, he's the best one available at this time. And he isn't going to be a defenseman when the Sharks are at even strength or on the penalty kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
A PP-only specialist isn't a dman. The 6th dman normally gets 14-16min TOI even if he is a specialist. The rest of the dmen spread the minutes. A PP-only specialist will get 4min TOI as a dman max. That will add another 10min TOI to the other 5 dmen. Most teams that have a 6th dman getting under 10min TOI dress 7 dmen.

The hole in logic remains.
But we would play him at forward still.

I mentioned potential lines in the 14th post.

Bergeron would play the point on the power play, but he's going to play forward during even strength. So technically, there will be 11 forwards, 6 defensemen and Bergeron, who would play forward on the 4th line.

rangerssharks414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 03:13 PM
  #28
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Did/do you have a problem when Demers played/plays as a forward?

I haven't seen enough of MAB to know whether he's worthy as a bottom 6 forward, but I don't see a big hole in this logic unless sucks as a forward and from his point totals when he's actually playing, it seems he couldn't be that bad. Unless he's getting like 80% of his points from the PP.

I am not advocating the move. Just trying to understand, because the logic does work unless he's a complete waist of space as a forward.
No problem with Demers as a forward.

Bergeron is a waste as a forward. He is getting the vast majority of his points on PP. See the further response to R414.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerssharks414 View Post
Very true. But if we want a puck moving defenseman, he's the best one available at this time. And he isn't going to be a defenseman when the Sharks are at even strength or on the penalty kill.

But we would play him at forward still.

I mentioned potential lines in the 14th post.

Bergeron would play the point on the power play, but he's going to play forward during even strength. So technically, there will be 11 forwards, 6 defensemen and Bergeron, who would play forward on the 4th line.
You are doing it by count rather than minute distribution. Your method effectively creates a 5 dman minute distribution. Most coaches won't do it. They dress 7 dmen in that situation. As a forward he is a waste of space. He doesn't bring those offensive skills to the forward slot. He is a PP trigger. He has a tremendous point shot, but that is the extent of his skill at the NHL level. The other problem with your opinion is that you are equating PP dman with a PMD. They are not always the same. PMD is passing. The defensive PP specialty is passing OR shooting OR both. Guys like Boucher, Phaneuf, Souray, Bergeron, etc. are triggers; they are not PMD (passing). A pass from Bergeron is just as likely to end up on an opposition stick as a teammate's.

Bergeron is certainly not the best available PMD at this time. Between Schaus and Braun they would get better puck movement.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 03:24 PM
  #29
Kitten Mittons
Registered User
 
Kitten Mittons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco
Country: Armenia
Posts: 47,596
vCash: 500
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I really hope it doesn't mean Demers injury is sinificant.

Kitten Mittons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 03:35 PM
  #30
SonomaShark
The sidebar is suck
 
SonomaShark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,135
vCash: 500
I'd rather see what Braun can bring before scrapping the bottom of the barrel with eastern conference rejects.

SonomaShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 03:36 PM
  #31
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,958
vCash: 500
say it with me

DW is getting desperate

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 04:07 PM
  #32
USF Shark
Zôion politikòn
 
USF Shark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DC Area
Country: United States
Posts: 20,587
vCash: 500
this has Ozo part 2 written all over it. It wouldn't end well.

USF Shark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 04:19 PM
  #33
parad0x
YOWZA!
 
parad0x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bay Area/ The OC
Posts: 1,040
vCash: 500
Pass. DW please pass.

parad0x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 04:20 PM
  #34
CupfortheSharks
Registered User
 
CupfortheSharks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
say it with me

DW is getting desperate
You're basing that on a rumor on the internet that probably isn't true.

CupfortheSharks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 04:34 PM
  #35
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerssharks414 View Post
Very true. But if we want a puck moving defenseman, he's the best one available at this time. And he isn't going to be a defenseman when the Sharks are at even strength or on the penalty kill.
No, he's not. Easy's right and I misspoke. MAB is not a puck-mover, he's a trigger-man. All he's good for is sitting at the point and cranking shots on net. He's a turnover machine and not conducive to getting the puck out of the defensive zone.

and even if he's not a defenceman at ES or on the PK, he's either not on the ice or he's a liability as a forward on a checking line. You're taking a lineup spot away from someone who can potentially play the PK or actually defend his position at ES.

__________________

"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent."
'14-15 Sharks CI Tracker: 12 GP, 4-6-2 (home-away-Nat'l/In-Region)
Sorry, I am not taking signature requests at this time.
The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 04:38 PM
  #36
rangerssharks414
Registered User
 
rangerssharks414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 11,056
vCash: 500
I meant offensive defenseman.

For everyone else's sake, I'll shut up now.

rangerssharks414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 04:49 PM
  #37
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
I dunno, our second unit could use a pointman, if he's really cheap he could be useful but he's definitely not the solution to our problems.

Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 05:11 PM
  #38
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
No, he's not. Easy's right and I misspoke. MAB is not a puck-mover, he's a trigger-man. All he's good for is sitting at the point and cranking shots on net. He's a turnover machine and not conducive to getting the puck out of the defensive zone.

and even if he's not a defenceman at ES or on the PK, he's either not on the ice or he's a liability as a forward on a checking line. You're taking a lineup spot away from someone who can potentially play the PK or actually defend his position at ES.
Sorry Nem,

The one other compliment I can give him is that he can skate and is fast. In that sense, his skills are deceptive because most with that skating ability are decent passers and are PMD.

What everyone should know is that Markov was down for the Habs and that they used an untested Subban on PP in the playoffs rather than passing on the spot to Bergeron. That is a huge statement in their choice. They were using others (eg Spacek, Hamrlik) as well as Subban ahead of Bergeron in the playoffs.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 05:28 PM
  #39
Artful_Dodger*
 
Artful_Dodger*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The CLT
Posts: 4,285
vCash: 500
Heard he could skate. NEXT.

Artful_Dodger* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 05:54 PM
  #40
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Sorry Nem,

The one other compliment I can give him is that he can skate and is fast. In that sense, his skills are deceptive because most with that skating ability are decent passers and are PMD.

What everyone should know is that Markov was down for the Habs and that they used an untested Subban on PP in the playoffs rather than passing on the spot to Bergeron. That is a huge statement in their choice. They were using others (eg Spacek, Hamrlik) as well as Subban ahead of Bergeron in the playoffs.
no need to apologize. My mistake earlier was my own and not related to anything you posted.

The Nemesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 06:35 PM
  #41
Got Mullet
Registered User
 
Got Mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lincoln, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Sorry Nem,

The one other compliment I can give him is that he can skate and is fast. In that sense, his skills are deceptive because most with that skating ability are decent passers and are PMD.

What everyone should know is that Markov was down for the Habs and that they used an untested Subban on PP in the playoffs rather than passing on the spot to Bergeron. That is a huge statement in their choice. They were using others (eg Spacek, Hamrlik) as well as Subban ahead of Bergeron in the playoffs.
Bergeron lead all Habs dmen in PP icetime in the PO's so I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion in your last paragraph.

You and count me in the "do not want" crowd though. What he brings offensively doesn't come close to making up for how bad he is in his own zone. Not even if he's playing a forward spot at even strength IMO.

Got Mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 06:40 PM
  #42
ChompChomp
SACK T-MAC
 
ChompChomp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dallas, TX (Ugh)
Country: United States
Posts: 8,954
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
By putting him in as a 12th forward and PP specialist you are creating a 5 man rotation by default. Unless you go 7 dmen and make Bergeron the 11th forward. You are not allowed to dress 7 dmen and 12 forwards; the limit is 18 skaters. Going 11/7 means no enforcer (Mayers or McLaren) in the lineup because they certainly aren't dropping Nichol. Besides all that, he wasn't a very effective scorer as a forward.
Huh? Look at Rangersharks's proposed lineup:

Quote:
F1: Marleau-Thornton-Heatley
F2: Clowe-Couture-Pavelski
F3: McGinn-Mitchell-Setoguchi
F4: Bergeron-Nichol-Mayers

D1: Murray-Boyle
D2: Vlasic-Wallin
D3: Huskins-Demers

PP1: Marleau-Thornton-Heatley-Bergeron-Boyle
PP2: Clowe-Couture-Setoguchi-Pavelski-Demers
That's 12 forwards and 6 dmen. It's just that on the PP, one unit would use Bergeron on the point, the other would use Pavelski. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

Now if you disagree that Bergeron would be effective as a forward that's one thing, but it seems like there is a disconnect here. Several times several of us have suggested playing Bergeron as a forward and only using him on the point for the power play, like how Pavelski assumes that role on the PP now but otherwise plays forward only.

Feel free to disagree with that all you want, but I never suggested 7 dmen AND 12 forwards. I suggested 12 forwards, one of whom would be Bergeron.

Is that such a difficult concept to grasp????

P.S. If it makes it clearer (not sure how I can be more clear than I've already been several times now), I'm suggesting bringing in Bergeron as a winger only. Someone to play 3rd/4th line minutes even strength as a left winger. When the Sharks are on the PP, he would join the PP #1 Unit opposite Boyle on the point. Again disagree with that all you want, but please don't put words in my mouth such as saying that I am advocating for an 11/7 split with Nichol/Mayers/McLaren getting benched. With MY proposal (can't speak for others) McCarthy would go to Worcester to make room in the top 12 forwards for Bergeron.

Like I said before top 12 forwards:
Marleau, Thornton, Heatley, Couture, Clowe, Pavelski, Bergeron, Mitchell, Seto, McGinn, Nichol, Mayers

6 dmen:
Boyle, Murray, Vlasic, Wallin, Huskins, Demers/Braun/Joslin


Last edited by ChompChomp: 11-26-2010 at 06:51 PM.
ChompChomp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 07:32 PM
  #43
Rickety Cricket
Registered User
 
Rickety Cricket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Not Kent Huskins
Country: United States
Posts: 28,469
vCash: 500
I would like to cite my post from a thread about Bergeron being close to signing:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=28958511&postcount=7

Rickety Cricket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 07:33 PM
  #44
rangerssharks414
Registered User
 
rangerssharks414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 11,056
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Huh? Look at Rangersharks's proposed lineup:

That's 12 forwards and 6 dmen. It's just that on the PP, one unit would use Bergeron on the point, the other would use Pavelski. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

Now if you disagree that Bergeron would be effective as a forward that's one thing, but it seems like there is a disconnect here. Several times several of us have suggested playing Bergeron as a forward and only using him on the point for the power play, like how Pavelski assumes that role on the PP now but otherwise plays forward only.
Exactly what I meant. At least someone understands what I was trying to say, haha.

rangerssharks414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 11:46 PM
  #45
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Huh? Look at Rangersharks's proposed lineup:



That's 12 forwards and 6 dmen. It's just that on the PP, one unit would use Bergeron on the point, the other would use Pavelski. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

Now if you disagree that Bergeron would be effective as a forward that's one thing, but it seems like there is a disconnect here. Several times several of us have suggested playing Bergeron as a forward and only using him on the point for the power play, like how Pavelski assumes that role on the PP now but otherwise plays forward only.

Feel free to disagree with that all you want, but I never suggested 7 dmen AND 12 forwards. I suggested 12 forwards, one of whom would be Bergeron.

Is that such a difficult concept to grasp????

P.S. If it makes it clearer (not sure how I can be more clear than I've already been several times now), I'm suggesting bringing in Bergeron as a winger only. Someone to play 3rd/4th line minutes even strength as a left winger. When the Sharks are on the PP, he would join the PP #1 Unit opposite Boyle on the point. Again disagree with that all you want, but please don't put words in my mouth such as saying that I am advocating for an 11/7 split with Nichol/Mayers/McLaren getting benched. With MY proposal (can't speak for others) McCarthy would go to Worcester to make room in the top 12 forwards for Bergeron.

Like I said before top 12 forwards:
Marleau, Thornton, Heatley, Couture, Clowe, Pavelski, Bergeron, Mitchell, Seto, McGinn, Nichol, Mayers

6 dmen:
Boyle, Murray, Vlasic, Wallin, Huskins, Demers/Braun/Joslin
I'd like to post one response here to this. This is basically having Bergeron be like Shelley. His role is one thing. Shooting pucks from the point on the power play. He offers nothing as a forward. He offers nothing in any other situation as a defenseman. That's like bringing Shelley in with the sole purpose of fighting. It is a waste of a roster spot, a waste of 500k and likely more if the Sharks want to get him, and a waste of developing younger talent who need to work to get their game better.

You're either going to create a 5 man rotation for the defensemen or you will create a 5 man rotation for the bottom six and have to double shift the top players with them because Bergeron will not see even strength time if they can prevent it and they would by using Thornton, Marleau, and Pavelski in his stead. Adding Bergeron would be just like adding Shelley except his one role is different.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 11:51 PM
  #46
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Huh? Look at Rangersharks's proposed lineup:



That's 12 forwards and 6 dmen. It's just that on the PP, one unit would use Bergeron on the point, the other would use Pavelski. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

Now if you disagree that Bergeron would be effective as a forward that's one thing, but it seems like there is a disconnect here. Several times several of us have suggested playing Bergeron as a forward and only using him on the point for the power play, like how Pavelski assumes that role on the PP now but otherwise plays forward only.

Feel free to disagree with that all you want, but I never suggested 7 dmen AND 12 forwards. I suggested 12 forwards, one of whom would be Bergeron.

Is that such a difficult concept to grasp????

P.S. If it makes it clearer (not sure how I can be more clear than I've already been several times now), I'm suggesting bringing in Bergeron as a winger only. Someone to play 3rd/4th line minutes even strength as a left winger. When the Sharks are on the PP, he would join the PP #1 Unit opposite Boyle on the point. Again disagree with that all you want, but please don't put words in my mouth such as saying that I am advocating for an 11/7 split with Nichol/Mayers/McLaren getting benched. With MY proposal (can't speak for others) McCarthy would go to Worcester to make room in the top 12 forwards for Bergeron.

Like I said before top 12 forwards:
Marleau, Thornton, Heatley, Couture, Clowe, Pavelski, Bergeron, Mitchell, Seto, McGinn, Nichol, Mayers

6 dmen:
Boyle, Murray, Vlasic, Wallin, Huskins, Demers/Braun/Joslin
That's an 11/7 in my book because you still have his primary purpose as a PP blueliner.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-26-2010, 11:56 PM
  #47
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Mullet View Post
Bergeron lead all Habs dmen in PP icetime in the PO's so I'm not sure how you are coming to that conclusion in your last paragraph.

You and count me in the "do not want" crowd though. What he brings offensively doesn't come close to making up for how bad he is in his own zone. Not even if he's playing a forward spot at even strength IMO.
You are correct, I was going from memory and did not check the stats. However when I did, I found out why I didn't notice him.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/play...team=MTL&pos=D

Please take note of Corsi Rel QoC and Corsi QoC columns and his ranking within them. Those reflect shots for/against on PP. His numbers were pathetic.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2010, 12:10 AM
  #48
couturefan39
Registered User
 
couturefan39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,062
vCash: 500
Sign him, we have nothing to lose... We need help on the blue line.

couturefan39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-27-2010, 12:30 AM
  #49
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacAndCheese View Post
Sign him, we have nothing to lose... We need help on the blue line.
So how does Bergeron do that? He's a shooter...that's it. He won't eat up minutes. He's not a puck-mover. He is a forward at even strength. With the way our team is, if we add him, we'll allow even more PK chances and goals.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2010, 08:30 AM
  #50
DutchSharksfan11
Registered User
 
DutchSharksfan11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Brunssum
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 75
vCash: 500
only if they want wallin in return...

DutchSharksfan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.