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Old
11-26-2010, 03:17 PM
  #101
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He sucks at cap and asset management.

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11-26-2010, 07:29 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
People who complain about Holmgren's cap management either:

A) Can't do math.
B) Are attached to specific players that fall victim to Holmgren's cap.
C) Are scared (aka would rather live cautiously even if it hurts their chances).
D) Never bothered to look, just assumed, or are sheep following Jester's herd.
People who defend Holmgren's cap management have the memory of a gold fish. Where the F were you the last couple of years, Chris? Did you think we were trotting out ATOs on defense for games 80 and 82 while fighting for home ice because Holmgren got an A in cap management? Did our Captain specifically call out Holmgren for ****ty cap management in an end of year press conference because he did a bang up job? Were we unable to trade for a goalie last year because of his brilliance at working the numbers?

Just because you have Holmgren's schlong pushed so far down your throat it's performing a tonsillectomy doesn't mean you can ignore recent history so casually.

And, of course, all this without mentioning the absolute awesome-sauce that was the Randy Jones decision last year. But, ya know, "what can you do?"

Quote:
The Flyers are in a good position cap wise.
We're in a tenuous cap position. We have a ton of big money contracts tied up in aging players. Because Holmgren has parted with picks like a drunk buying rounds at the bar, our system is largely bereft of actual talent to fill in as we lose bodies in the coming years.


Last edited by Jester: 11-26-2010 at 07:38 PM.
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11-26-2010, 07:36 PM
  #103
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Nice breakdown Chris.

I think this whole "He sucks at the cap" Crowd is non-sense. It's an overrated issue. The Flyers aren't in a situation like the Hawks were.

The only problem i have with Homer is how weak our prospect pool is.. Yes we have two good goalie prospects but after that look at how terrible our prospects are. The Eminger trade was the worst trade he has made. That was down right awful. He also overpays for what he is trying to get.
...seriously, on what planet have people been the last few years. It's as if folks have been parachuted in with zero recent memory.

In each of the last two years Holmgren has *ed this team with regard to the salary cap. Right now we're operating over the salary cap and going to have to dump someone to get under the cap when the LTIR folk come back. And, sure, you may not shed a tear for Boucher, Leighton, or Walker... but, once again, we're operating with ZERO leeway and if the injury bug strikes we'll have a problem (especially since our farm system sucks and no immediate help for a serious need will be coming from there).

But, in all seriousness.

Last year: zero cap space to acquire a legit goalie, and eventually that blew up in our face in the SCF... on a team that was a real cup contender everywhere other than the AHL all-star tandem in net.

Year before: Holmgren cap managed his way into pissing away a chunk of depth in Metro and Vaananen, made the ATROCIOUS Upshall/Carcillo trade (which didn't solve the problem he had created), and we ended the year with ATO defensemen dressing for the team in extremely important games. All that before the certifiable genius he refused to fire (Stevens) put one of those ATOs on the ice in the 3rd period of a game with home ice on the line... and promptly had a goal scored on him.

All of this resulted in Mike Richards publicly criticizing Holmgren's cap management in his exit interview.

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11-26-2010, 07:39 PM
  #104
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BTW, the moronic Lupul contract cost the team in the Pronger deal...

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11-26-2010, 08:05 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
He sucks at cap and asset management.
Does he though? We've rarely had to sacrifice good players for cap reasons, certainly no more than most other clubs. Asset management seems to be pretty good too. We've got a great young team with the majority of them being players he signed.

I think the problem here is that some people expect our GM to never make a mistake and aren't bothered about the end result if he achieved it by wasting a pick here or there.

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11-26-2010, 08:14 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Does he though? We've rarely had to sacrifice good players for cap reasons, certainly no more than most other clubs. Asset management seems to be pretty good too. We've got a great young team with the majority of them being players he signed.

I think the problem here is that some people expect our GM to never make a mistake and aren't bothered about the end result if he achieved it by wasting a pick here or there.
Umberger, Upshall...

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11-26-2010, 11:01 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Does he though? We've rarely had to sacrifice good players for cap reasons, certainly no more than most other clubs. Asset management seems to be pretty good too. We've got a great young team with the majority of them being players he signed.

I think the problem here is that some people expect our GM to never make a mistake and aren't bothered about the end result if he achieved it by wasting a pick here or there.
Mistakes aren't the problem. Certifiably stupid decisions are.

Throw every other problem with Holmgren out the window: how can you justify the decision to recall Randy Jones? Who knows whether that money would have mattered come deadline time, but it may have been useful for helping that team compete for a cup... ya know, acquiring a goalie or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Umberger, Upshall...
...Gagne... Metropolit, who was a good role player for that team, and Vaananen.

And to be clear, the Umberger move was both necessary and smartly handled by Holmgren. Loved that deal, and exactly how you should handle that situation. Creating a cap nightmare and ditching Upshall AND a 2nd for Carcillo is the opposite.

Here's the reality. Paul Holmgren has been the GM of this team for 4 years now. You can throw out the first year, because that was the rebuild year where he wasn't bothering with cap management. The 2nd year was the breakout year, and he had a ton of cap space going into that year to play with... and spent it all. The 3rd year he completely and utterly **** the bed to the point that Mike Richards publicly called him out and Holmgren was forced to answer questions about his captain making comments about his cap management. Then last year, where he roped us so tight to the cap that we were stuck riding Leighton and Boucher on a cup contender... which, as many of us around here said, was going to (and did) bite us in the end.

So, in the 3 seasons that are worth judging Holmgren on cap management he's *ed up 2 of 'em. Or 66% of the seasons he's been the GM of this team and cap management has been an issue. The year is still young on this one, and we're again operating over the cap living in LTIR space right now, and will have little wiggle room going forward if injury problems develop.


Last edited by Jester: 11-26-2010 at 11:07 PM.
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11-26-2010, 11:51 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
People who defend Holmgren's cap management have the memory of a gold fish. Where the F were you the last couple of years, Chris? Did you think we were trotting out ATOs on defense for games 80 and 82 while fighting for home ice because Holmgren got an A in cap management? Did our Captain specifically call out Holmgren for ****ty cap management in an end of year press conference because he did a bang up job? Were we unable to trade for a goalie last year because of his brilliance at working the numbers?

Just because you have Holmgren's schlong pushed so far down your throat it's performing a tonsillectomy doesn't mean you can ignore recent history so casually.

And, of course, all this without mentioning the absolute awesome-sauce that was the Randy Jones decision last year. But, ya know, "what can you do?"

We're in a tenuous cap position. We have a ton of big money contracts tied up in aging players. Because Holmgren has parted with picks like a drunk buying rounds at the bar, our system is largely bereft of actual talent to fill in as we lose bodies in the coming years.
This is awesome.

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11-26-2010, 11:56 PM
  #109
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I would also add that most of Homer's defenders have no idea what an opportunity cost is.

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11-27-2010, 12:28 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Umberger, Upshall...
Yup, but both a fair while ago now though. Umberger left before Homer had even been in the job for a year too, bit harsh to blame him for that.

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11-27-2010, 12:37 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Mistakes aren't the problem. Certifiably stupid decisions are.

Throw every other problem with Holmgren out the window: how can you justify the decision to recall Randy Jones? Who knows whether that money would have mattered come deadline time, but it may have been useful for helping that team compete for a cup... ya know, acquiring a goalie or something.
Bad move for sure to recall Jones. Just like it was a bad move to trade for Eminger. You'll never catch me making out he's perfect by any means. They're so incredibly minor in the bigger picture though. The Jones recall was what...$1m? Who cares? There would be nothing we could do with that. I challenge you to find a GM out there who's not made any Eminger-esque trades.

Quote:
...Gagne... Metropolit, who was a good role player for that team, and Vaananen.
Gagne, again, hasn't scored a point for Tampa and has missed 16 straight games with a mystery injury. Dumping him is looking to be an excellent, excellent move. As for Metropolit and Vaananen, meh? Ten a penny who've been replaced comfortably.

Quote:
Here's the reality. Paul Holmgren has been the GM of this team for 4 years now. You can throw out the first year, because that was the rebuild year where he wasn't bothering with cap management. The 2nd year was the breakout year, and he had a ton of cap space going into that year to play with... and spent it all. The 3rd year he completely and utterly **** the bed to the point that Mike Richards publicly called him out and Holmgren was forced to answer questions about his captain making comments about his cap management. Then last year, where he roped us so tight to the cap that we were stuck riding Leighton and Boucher on a cup contender... which, as many of us around here said, was going to (and did) bite us in the end.

So, in the 3 seasons that are worth judging Holmgren on cap management he's *ed up 2 of 'em. Or 66% of the seasons he's been the GM of this team and cap management has been an issue. The year is still young on this one, and we're again operating over the cap living in LTIR space right now, and will have little wiggle room going forward if injury problems develop.
That's a strange look at reality, very one-eyed. I see reality as him taking over the worst team in the league by a distance and with a series of trades and wise FA signings, we went to the Conference finals, lost to the winners and went to the SC finals in consecutive years. None of your negative spin can change those facts.

Cap space, the odd poor trade, riding Leighton, whatever. His risks and his chances have worked and we're in the best position to win a cup in a long time. That's got a huge amount to do with Holmgren, it's effectively his team.

One thing i'm learning is that you're a stubborn old mule though, you're never going to change your path. Shame really.

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11-27-2010, 12:37 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
People who defend Holmgren's cap management have the memory of a gold fish. Where the F were you the last couple of years, Chris? Did you think we were trotting out ATOs on defense for games 80 and 82 while fighting for home ice because Holmgren got an A in cap management? Did our Captain specifically call out Holmgren for ****ty cap management in an end of year press conference because he did a bang up job? Were we unable to trade for a goalie last year because of his brilliance at working the numbers?

Just because you have Holmgren's schlong pushed so far down your throat it's performing a tonsillectomy doesn't mean you can ignore recent history so casually.

And, of course, all this without mentioning the absolute awesome-sauce that was the Randy Jones decision last year. But, ya know, "what can you do?"
Wow.

You got all of that out at once?

I'm impressed by you're fortitude, but it's time to give it up.

Despite those little problems such as giving up Gagne (while adding Zherdev I might add even though Zherdev is not going to fill his shoes), I'd rather have a 25-year-old consolation. Maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm not being sentimental enough about my favorite player, the one I grew up watching, the reason I played hockey, why I liked hockey?

So, you're bitter about that right? I'm sure that's on your list. How come I can get over that, but you clearly can't?

What about Randy Jones? Holmgren screwed up obviously. He should've never trusted anyone not to take that pile out of the "return to sender" heap right? I agree. His foolishness cost us what? 1.27m or something like that we could've used for a goalie?

What goalie? We should've blown even more assets to acquire a Halak/Price? Throw out a 2nd for Roloson? Or stick with Leighton who got us there in the first place? I'm not defending Leighton. I think he's a horrible goalie, but he did exactly what I said he'd do; put up great numbers behind a stacked team.

And Sloane right? The defenseman? He played one game. We lost Metropolit, who didn't do crap here, and Ossi Vaananen as well. Can you guess where Vaananen is right now? He didn't even cut it in the same league as Lasse Kukkonen. Meanwhile, god knows that disaster Randy Jones is still off doing god knows what down in Tampa. He's certainly not helping them any.

Oh, but now we're going to bring up Upshall right? Fan favorite? Loved by everyone? The kid wanted $3.5m or something for a career high of 14 goals. He ended up with 15 on the year and 34 points in 74 games. Claude Giroux had nearly as many in half that as a rookie, but no, we should hang onto Upshall.

But that cap issue should've never come up right? Why did it? Because we traded Downie and Eminger for Carle? You can't possibly defend the 1st for Eminger in hindsight, but honestly, do you know what was going on with our team when we made that trade? Vaananen certainly wasn't going on, I'll tell you that much. Neither was Kukkonen or Jones. No, we were forced to play an 18-year-old Luca Sbisa. Why? Because that's the situation we were in.

Lose Upshall, someone who was going to want more than he's worth meanwhile trading his spot for a better player even if you have to lose value in the trade, or lose the season? Which do you pick? Upshall or your precious cap space? Basically do you want a shot at the cup or do you want to make sure you keep your cap space clean for that all-important "deadline pick-up?"

Don't get me started on Umberger. Welcome to the world of the salary cap. It's designed so you can't keep everyone.

So you can nitpick about all the minor details all you want. In the end Holmgren's made the right decision time after time. Sure, he's screwed up a bit, but you don't get to the position where the Flyers are without winning a lot more than you're losing both on the ice and in the front office.

He has a championship caliber team on his ice. He had one last year, and possibly the year before. Who knows what happens if we get the right call made at the end of game 2 in Pittsburgh in 2008-09?

Guess what else. Our core, and a lot of the complimentary players, will be on this team for the foreseeable future as well.

So where is doom's day?

I pretty much showed you that it isn't coming.

But no, we're going to complain about how he didn't get fair value for this, and screwed up here instead of doing that. At some point you're just arguing that the way you would build the team is better than the way he has built it. Sure, he's gotten lucky at times like with Bobrovsky, but just because he's jumping earlier than expected doesn't take away from the fact that Holmgren signed him.

What about our prospect pool that's in such dire straights?

Now with Maroon gone we should be dead in the water right?

Except that Nodl's living up to potential, Wellwood's jumped the gun a lot sooner than anyone could've ever hoped, Giroux's locked up on what will likely be a bargain, he kept Carter's cap hit WAY down, he stole Leino and will try to keep him for a bargain, he paid the price to get Briere here but that's certainly been worth it for the postseason alone, he's got Pronger cheap under the cap, he dumped his mistakes (Lupul included), and he's got a young defensive core including Meszaros, Coburn, and Carle playing like they should be playing next two three legitimate and solid veterans who are going to teach them how to compete for years to come.

Oh yeah, and we have a first round pick this year.

And we have all of that because of who? Because of Holmgren.

So you can sit here and complain and whine and curse and act like you're smarter than everyone else, or you could listen to what I've been saying all along.



Get over yourself and stop insulting people.

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11-27-2010, 12:39 AM
  #113
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I would also add that most of Homer's defenders have no idea what an opportunity cost is.
I'd just like to add that you're a surprisingly condescending arse when you want to be.

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11-27-2010, 03:26 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Wow.

You got all of that out at once?

I'm impressed by you're fortitude, but it's time to give it up.

Despite those little problems such as giving up Gagne (while adding Zherdev I might add even though Zherdev is not going to fill his shoes), I'd rather have a 25-year-old consolation. Maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm not being sentimental enough about my favorite player, the one I grew up watching, the reason I played hockey, why I liked hockey?

So, you're bitter about that right? I'm sure that's on your list. How come I can get over that, but you clearly can't?

What about Randy Jones? Holmgren screwed up obviously. He should've never trusted anyone not to take that pile out of the "return to sender" heap right? I agree. His foolishness cost us what? 1.27m or something like that we could've used for a goalie?

What goalie? We should've blown even more assets to acquire a Halak/Price? Throw out a 2nd for Roloson? Or stick with Leighton who got us there in the first place? I'm not defending Leighton. I think he's a horrible goalie, but he did exactly what I said he'd do; put up great numbers behind a stacked team.

And Sloane right? The defenseman? He played one game. We lost Metropolit, who didn't do crap here, and Ossi Vaananen as well. Can you guess where Vaananen is right now? He didn't even cut it in the same league as Lasse Kukkonen. Meanwhile, god knows that disaster Randy Jones is still off doing god knows what down in Tampa. He's certainly not helping them any.

Oh, but now we're going to bring up Upshall right? Fan favorite? Loved by everyone? The kid wanted $3.5m or something for a career high of 14 goals. He ended up with 15 on the year and 34 points in 74 games. Claude Giroux had nearly as many in half that as a rookie, but no, we should hang onto Upshall.

But that cap issue should've never come up right? Why did it? Because we traded Downie and Eminger for Carle? You can't possibly defend the 1st for Eminger in hindsight, but honestly, do you know what was going on with our team when we made that trade? Vaananen certainly wasn't going on, I'll tell you that much. Neither was Kukkonen or Jones. No, we were forced to play an 18-year-old Luca Sbisa. Why? Because that's the situation we were in.

Lose Upshall, someone who was going to want more than he's worth meanwhile trading his spot for a better player even if you have to lose value in the trade, or lose the season? Which do you pick? Upshall or your precious cap space? Basically do you want a shot at the cup or do you want to make sure you keep your cap space clean for that all-important "deadline pick-up?"

Don't get me started on Umberger. Welcome to the world of the salary cap. It's designed so you can't keep everyone.

So you can nitpick about all the minor details all you want. In the end Holmgren's made the right decision time after time. Sure, he's screwed up a bit, but you don't get to the position where the Flyers are without winning a lot more than you're losing both on the ice and in the front office.

He has a championship caliber team on his ice. He had one last year, and possibly the year before. Who knows what happens if we get the right call made at the end of game 2 in Pittsburgh in 2008-09?

Guess what else. Our core, and a lot of the complimentary players, will be on this team for the foreseeable future as well.

So where is doom's day?

I pretty much showed you that it isn't coming.

But no, we're going to complain about how he didn't get fair value for this, and screwed up here instead of doing that. At some point you're just arguing that the way you would build the team is better than the way he has built it. Sure, he's gotten lucky at times like with Bobrovsky, but just because he's jumping earlier than expected doesn't take away from the fact that Holmgren signed him.

What about our prospect pool that's in such dire straights?

Now with Maroon gone we should be dead in the water right?

Except that Nodl's living up to potential, Wellwood's jumped the gun a lot sooner than anyone could've ever hoped, Giroux's locked up on what will likely be a bargain, he kept Carter's cap hit WAY down, he stole Leino and will try to keep him for a bargain, he paid the price to get Briere here but that's certainly been worth it for the postseason alone, he's got Pronger cheap under the cap, he dumped his mistakes (Lupul included), and he's got a young defensive core including Meszaros, Coburn, and Carle playing like they should be playing next two three legitimate and solid veterans who are going to teach them how to compete for years to come.

Oh yeah, and we have a first round pick this year.

And we have all of that because of who? Because of Holmgren.

So you can sit here and complain and whine and curse and act like you're smarter than everyone else, or you could listen to what I've been saying all along.



Get over yourself and stop insulting people.
Chris,
jester is in the same mold as cartsiefan. Except jester tends to get vulgar when he cracks. It is one thing to have a opinion, but when it becomes a personal attack I believe that is crossing the line of good taste. It still amazes me that people cannot enjoy what is going on with our team right now. What is in the past is past. Jeez get over it and move on! Why dwell on things that are done. Instead of getting busy dying,try getting busy living. If not then I suggest some professional help where a couch or meds may be in order. Go Flyers

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11-27-2010, 03:35 AM
  #115
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I would also add that most of Homer's defenders have no idea what an opportunity cost is.
So I guess you are a John Stuart Mill fan??? I dabbled in economics.Boring You sir are a prime example of opportunity cost. Because right now you are missing what is happening with our teamI know you. You were the blond dude in the bar in Good Will Hunting Hows about them apples!!!

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11-27-2010, 08:26 AM
  #116
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too much petty arguing

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