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Old
11-28-2010, 12:09 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Antii ****ing Niemi won a cup. If you have enough depth, any plug in the crease can get you a cup.
Thats a bit unfair considering your making it circumstantial. As you said the blackhawks are loaded with good players that make up for the ONE goalie who is mediocre. Lundqvist on the other hand is an elite goaltender that makes up for the deficiencies of many players on his team. See the math on that one? Several players cover for Niemi, while Lundqvist makes up for several players. Lundqvist doesnt need the star depth that the Blackhawks had to win a cup. He needs an above average team in front of him. Its not like the devils had superstars when they won their cups either. It was that they had a solid team with an all star goalie.

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11-28-2010, 12:12 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I've been asking for a complete rebuild for a long time.
And this isn't a complete rebuild?

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11-28-2010, 12:15 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Antii ****ing Niemi won a cup. If you have enough depth, any plug in the crease can get you a cup.
This argument is only valid for like 5 teams in the league. Just because it happened last year doesn't mean it's the new trend. Plenty of teams have won the cup with an elite goaltender too. I only say this because the Rangers are far from having enough depth to survive on mediocre goaltending, few teams have that luxury.

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11-28-2010, 12:17 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
And this isn't a complete rebuild?
It's been phased in to keep the team competitive while changing directions. I think he meant something like a fire sale and lottery pick rebuild.

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11-28-2010, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
This argument is only valid for like 5 teams in the league. Just because it happened last year doesn't mean it's the new trend. Plenty of teams have won the cup with an elite goaltender too. I only say this because the Rangers are far from having enough depth to survive on mediocre goaltending, few teams have that luxury.
I was just pointing out, with the right team, goalie is the least important position. Having an elite goalie is a bonus.

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11-28-2010, 12:21 PM
  #31
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Didn't Buccigross write an article about a month ago that the Rangers need to rebuild immediately so they can have a young and scrappy team, as if that's not what the team's identity is right now?

I'm usually negative when it comes to assessing the Rangers, but the media is being way too harsh on this team. To put them in the same category as the Devils and Islanders is laughable. The Devils have been extremely disappointing and the Islanders are probably the worst team in the league, while the Rangers have played hard and exceeded expectations.

And didn't THN project the Rangers to finish 13th in the conference? Maybe they should watch a few games instead of pretending like their projection was accurate.

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Old
11-28-2010, 12:22 PM
  #32
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People point to Niemi winning the cup, but yet they never point to, let's say, the Caps never being deep contenders despite their stacked offense, or the Penguins getting beat by the Habs BECAUSE of Halak in this most recent SC playoff, or guys like Hank and Ryan Miller pulling their respective teams into the playoffs kicking and screaming each year (not a real argument for PLAYOFF success, but it still shows the importance of goaltending)

You put Henrik on the Flyers, they win the cup this year. Goaltending is seen as the weakest because even the lovechild of Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek probably wouldn't be able to win the cup with an AHL team infront of them. However, you put a great goaltender on a good enough team and they're contenders.

Now the problem is what will make us a good enough team? Brad Richards?

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11-28-2010, 12:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
I was just pointing out, with the right team, goalie is the least important position. Having an elite goalie is a bonus.
Certainly. This team has few luxuries goaltending is one of them. Biron has been a great addition and is a guy you could rely on in the Playoffs if needed.

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11-28-2010, 12:38 PM
  #34
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3 POINTS OUT OF 4th OVERALL.

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11-28-2010, 12:40 PM
  #35
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And guess who we play next? The team in 4th overall.

We win in regulation, we are one measley point from 4th overall in the Conference.

The sky surely is falling!!!

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Old
11-28-2010, 12:41 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Losing should never be an option.

They've drafted very well from their position every year post-lockout.
And boy, has this philosophy paid off in spades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheZherdev View Post
Thats a bit unfair considering your making it circumstantial. As you said the blackhawks are loaded with good players that make up for the ONE goalie who is mediocre. Lundqvist on the other hand is an elite goaltender that makes up for the deficiencies of many players on his team. See the math on that one? Several players cover for Niemi, while Lundqvist makes up for several players. Lundqvist doesnt need the star depth that the Blackhawks had to win a cup. He needs an above average team in front of him. Its not like the devils had superstars when they won their cups either. It was that they had a solid team with an all star goalie.
Why even compare to the Devils? Back then, goaltending was of utmost importance. But today is different, and Niemi isn't the only example. Has Luongo won? Has Lundqvist won? Brodeur hasn't won in a while, either.

Fleury, Niemi, Osgood, not to mention Howard and Leighton...these are not the best goalies in the league.

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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
And this isn't a complete rebuild?
It's a retooling. Rebuilds don't begin with the acquisition of a 34 year old Jagr and his friends. Rebuilds begin with the drafting or acquiring of very young, cheap, franchise players with high-end offensive talent. Our "rebuild" is nearly complete and we still have two very big holes in our roster with no one on the horizon to fill either one.

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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
People point to Niemi winning the cup, but yet they never point to, let's say, the Caps never being deep contenders despite their stacked offense, or the Penguins getting beat by the Habs BECAUSE of Halak in this most recent SC playoff, or guys like Hank and Ryan Miller pulling their respective teams into the playoffs kicking and screaming each year (not a real argument for PLAYOFF success, but it still shows the importance of goaltending)
No one says goaltending isn't important It just isn't the biggest factor anymore. The Capitals had a bad goaltender and a rookie in net. But goaltending isn't even why the Caps have been underachieving. They just haven't raised their game to playoff levels yet. And if they do this year, or the next, no one will say a word about their goaltending.

Quote:
You put Henrik on the Flyers, they win the cup this year. Goaltending is seen as the weakest because even the lovechild of Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek probably wouldn't be able to win the cup with an AHL team infront of them. However, you put a great goaltender on a good enough team and they're contenders.
But the Flyers are stacked at every position except for in net (and who knows now with Bobrovsky?). Their goaltending wasn't just average, it was downright poor and they still made it to the Finals, DEFEATING the Habs, who got to the ECF on a Halak hot streak.

Quote:
Now the problem is what will make us a good enough team? Brad Richards?
Best team in the league? No. Much better than we would be without him or with any other realistic target? Yes.

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Old
11-28-2010, 12:49 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post

But the Flyers are stacked at every position except for in net (and who knows now with Bobrovsky?). Their goaltending wasn't just average, it was downright poor and they still made it to the Finals, DEFEATING the Habs, who got to the ECF on a Halak hot streak.

Exactly, and we are in no way going to be nearly as stacked as the Flyers unless we say **** it and waste Gaborik and Hank's prime. If we had Brad Richards, without gutting the system, I do think we could be contenders. I like the Devils comparison- yes the Devils had some good players in front of Brodeur but they were not nearly as stacked as the Hawks or the Flyers of the last SCF. We will never become as stacked as those teams in the near future, yet just this season we beat the Penguins because of Hank. While not an indication that we could beat them in a 7 game series in the playoffs, it goes to show you why goal tending is still just as important, especially for us.

edit- on topic, I think the article is way too pessimistic for no real reason. For the reasons I'm arguing here AND because we're simply not as bad as they make it sound as is. Why don't do they do an article about Toronto?

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11-28-2010, 12:52 PM
  #38
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You see the Canadians are right about these marginal hockey markets, I mean really. Only 4 teams within a hundred miles of each other? pfft

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Old
11-28-2010, 12:54 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheZherdev View Post
Thats a bit unfair considering your making it circumstantial. As you said the blackhawks are loaded with good players that make up for the ONE goalie who is mediocre. Lundqvist on the other hand is an elite goaltender that makes up for the deficiencies of many players on his team. See the math on that one? Several players cover for Niemi, while Lundqvist makes up for several players. Lundqvist doesnt need the star depth that the Blackhawks had to win a cup. He needs an above average team in front of him. Its not like the devils had superstars when they won their cups either. It was that they had a solid team with an all star goalie.
This argument would only work if you honestly thought THIS team RIGHT NOW could win a cup. Do you think they can? I am pretty sure the majority opinion on that question around here is a resounding no. So, no, Lundqvist does not fill ALL the deficiencies that a ****-ton of blue-line out depth can fill in net, making the team a contender. It's not the same.

EDIT: Also, if all your chips are on an elite goaltender, what happens if he has a bad game with a mediocre team in front of him? Hello Colorado game. On the other hand, if one or two players on your super roster have a bad night, you still have 16 or so other players who can make up for it.

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Old
11-28-2010, 12:58 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Antii ****ing Niemi won a cup. If you have enough depth, any plug in the crease can get you a cup.
Very ignorant misconception. The guy also had to play well. You can not simply grab Scott Stajcer and plug him into last years chicago team. Without fantastic goaltending from Niemi during those playoffs Chicago doesn't make the finals. You need goaltending and depth.

We've got both but the players filling our depth need to be better. luckily they are mostly young and will hopefully continue to improve.

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11-28-2010, 01:02 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by DrurysWeekend View Post
This argument would only work if you honestly thought THIS team RIGHT NOW could win a cup. Do you think they can? I am pretty sure the majority opinion on that question around here is a resounding no. So, no, Lundqvist does not fill ALL the deficiencies that a ****-ton of blue-line out depth can fill in net, making the team a contender. It's not the same.

EDIT: Also, if all your chips are on an elite goaltender, what happens if he has a bad game with a mediocre team in front of him? Hello Colorado game. On the other hand, if one or two players on your super roster have a bad night, you still have 16 or so other players who can make up for it.
There's parity now in all leagues which means teams that have no business winning can and on occassion will. You can be intelligent and pick against the Rangers in favor of Wsh, Pitt and maybe a TB but you also have to be intelligent enough to realize the Rangers are a team with the pieces to come together and win now and in the near future. They are also in a rare position to improve over the next few years as oppossed to topping out and having to blow it up like Chicago. Also 7 game series. You can have a 5-0 game but still almost steal a series like Hank vs Wsh few years back or Halak all last year.

I would agree it's smarter to build with forwards first but we got Hank and gabs. Dubs, Cally, Staal, Girardi. All solid pieces to build around. We seem to be filling the spots now finally with the likes of Artie, Sauer, Stepan. Maybe MDZ altho base don this year I can't look forward to him as much as I'd like to. Essentially we've got a top 6 and 2 D pairs filled out now it's a matter of completing the team and letting those young top 6 guys develop. An elite center is not necassary to complete this puzzle imo but it'd be nice to have and could be a quick fix this off season. we'll see. We could have an elite center, forward and goalie + a full top 6 and top 2 D pairs. Dunno what sting is saying by implying we are so far away but then again I put him on ignore because he's ignorant at best.

Hell some of the bottom 6 is there too with Boyle, Prust for example. It seems obvious to me Dubs, Cally, Artie, Staal, Girardi, Sauer can improve to compliment Hank and Gabs but we have to be patient another year or two. This is not exactly the NY Mets here as far as regressing and never doing much with constant suppossed elite players failing. This team is succeeding without the elite guys in the lineup and with improvements on the way. I'm very very excited elite center or not.

In short the guy writing the blog seems to lack knowledge about what he wrote but w/e it's a blog it's not suppossed to be the heights of journalism. There's also gonna be dissention and disagreement among fans on this for at least 1 and a half more years but based on what we've seen this year I've noticed a lot of the worrying and hating seems to have gone away. If the team lost Gabs and was losing 14 games in a row that'd be one thing but instead the guys some of us keep saying will have to learn to lead the team stepped up and led. Very positive sign.


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Old
11-28-2010, 01:41 PM
  #42
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I used to want this team to fully rebuild, but that ship has fully sailed imo. Right now they are half way rebuilding.

Besides they don't NEED to fully rebuild anyway. Not anymore. They've drafted very well recently. I think they're 1 more elite player (forward), Kreider and a top D-man from being legit Cup contenders.

-Richards could be that elite player.
-I think the Rangers need Kreider to come through and become a top 6 forward for them.
-No clue where we're getting a top D-man from. Trade I guess.

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11-28-2010, 01:43 PM
  #43
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And boy, has this philosophy paid off in spades.
They've missed the playoffs once post-lockout.

They're currently 3 points away from home ice advantage.

And the team is being led by seven(7)* players they've drafted post-lockout. Not including Girardi (who was an undrafted free agent, that came up through our system), and Lundqvist who was drafted in 2000.


* Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal, Stepan, Anisimov, Sauer, Del Zotto.

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11-28-2010, 01:48 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
They've missed the playoffs once post-lockout.
More than half the teams in the league make the playoffs. That is not a significant accomplishment. 2 first round wins, one over an average Atlanta team, and not a single homegrown franchise player to show for it outside of Lundqvist, in six seasons. What a success story.

Quote:
They're currently 3 points away from home ice advantage.
1/4 of the way into the season, but that's not even the point. Do you think they are a top 4 team in the East? I don't, even when healthy. If they get Richards, completely different story.

Quote:
And the team is being led by seven(7)* players they've drafted post-lockout. Not including Girardi (who was an undrafted free agent, that came up through our system), and Lundqvist who was drafted in 2000.
* Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal, Stepan, Anisimov, Sauer, Del Zotto.
Great. Led to where and to what? Unless the answer is a championship or serious contender status, then the answer isn't good enough. I don't think they fall into either of those categories. More importantly, if they don't get Richards, I don't think they will fall into those categories going forward, either.

If they get Richards, then I think this team is a top 4 team in the East for the next 4-5 years.

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11-28-2010, 03:15 PM
  #45
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It is looking more and more that a competent tandom that is well rested in May is a bit more effective than an elite goalie playing 65+ games. Nabokov, Luongo, Brodeur, Miller, Lundqvist, etc, there are some pretty disappointing runs from this group. Not just losing, but some embarrassing series losses. Brodeur has done nothing in the post season since '03, Brodeur looks gassed.

Let's just say that the difference an elite goalie made in the 90s is not nearly the same impact they make now.

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11-28-2010, 03:20 PM
  #46
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Read this on my phone this morning. What pissed me of was this guy's sheer ignorance. Guy obviously doesn't know too much about our youth and our system. And to use the word "sucky"? seriously? Great journalism right there.

"Ryan Callahan and Brian Boyle have accounted for nearly a quarter of the team's tallies."

Really, how about Dubinsky being among the top of the league in goal scoring? Forget about him?


"Anisimov and Stepan have showed promise in spurts."

Oh right, a rookie on pace for 40-50 points and a 22 year on pace to double his point totals from last season for is just wildy inconsistent.


Know your facts about a team. Guy is a clown.

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11-28-2010, 03:42 PM
  #47
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Quote:
So let’s do the math: perennially mismanaged basement dweller (the Maple Leafs) + drastic underachiever with payroll problems (the Canucks) + the little team that just never quite can (the Habs) + year-over-year mediocrity with little to look forward to (the Flames) + a team who despite landing multiple high end prospects has nothing to show for it (the Oilers) + a shadow of their former selves and constantly the center of controversy (the Senators).

What does that equal? A sucky time to be an NHL fan in Canada.
and wtf is with that sentence structure? is this professional journalism or were you just summarizing?

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11-28-2010, 04:44 PM
  #48
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Not one franchise player in the group.
Take a look at your avatar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
A whole hell of a lot of very, very good players, but no Crosby, no Kane, no Datsyuk, no Zetterberg, no Kopitar, etc.
Makes you realize how big an impact Cherry's demise had on our club.

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If we get Richards, we're a contender. If we don't, there's little to suggest that we'll be one anytime soon.
I've heard that line one too many times to really believe it. Even with Richards, our D is still a little too green to win the important one-goal games playoffs are all about.

I don't even think we can fit Richards under the cap without making some dramatic changes.

I think a "good" center that can establish chemistry with Gaborik is the better way to go, unless Slats can make Redden+Drury permanantly disappear from this roster.

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11-28-2010, 04:47 PM
  #49
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Nice article. If that was a thread on the hfboards, the first mod to read would close it instantly.

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11-28-2010, 04:51 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Take a look at your avatar.




Makes you realize how big an impact Cherry's demise had on our club.



I've heard that line one too many times to really believe it. Even with Richards, our D is still a little too green to win the important one-goal games playoffs are all about.

I don't even think we can fit Richards under the cap without making some dramatic changes.

I think a "good" center that can establish chemistry with Gaborik is the better way to go, unless Slats can make Redden+Drury permanantly disappear from this roster.

Which is where the elite goalie comes in. If we get Richards and our defense (with Staal staying consistent and MDZ playing like he has in some of his better games) stays the same, you see Hank keeping games close like the elite Philly and Blackhawks defenses did.

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