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GM of the year? or Stanley Cup or Bust

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Old
11-28-2010, 09:18 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Not going to get into this debate again. Can't believe some people think that the incredibly irrelevant Walker and Shelley things are that much of a detriment to him.
you must not understand "asset management" either...

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11-28-2010, 09:23 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I agree that Holmgren has done a better job than most GMs in the time-frame since he came to power. You cannot ignore a team that went from last place in 2006-07 to first place by the quarter mark of 2010-11 with two Conference Finals and a Stanley Cup appearance in between.
Not to nit pick, but there was one conference final, one Cup final and one elimination by Pitt in the first round in between.

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11-28-2010, 09:31 PM
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Not to nit pick, but there was one conference final, one Cup final and one elimination by Pitt in the first round in between.
Two conference finals appearances, one Stanley Cup appearance.

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11-28-2010, 09:38 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Two conference finals appearances, one Stanley Cup appearance.
The word "microcosm" comes to mind.

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11-28-2010, 09:48 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I agree that Holmgren has done a better job than most GMs in the time-frame since he came to power. You cannot ignore a team that went from last place in 2006-07 to first place by the quarter mark of 2010-11 with two Conference Finals and a Stanley Cup appearance in between.

That said, if Holmgren was going to get GM of the year it should've been in 2007-08, not after he made some minor moves to revamp a roster that went to the Stanley Cup last year.
This. Despite my avy, I do think Holmgren has done well as a GM overall because of where the team is now compared to where it was when he took over. But, if it's an award for this year, he's not even close.

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11-28-2010, 10:02 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
This. Despite my avy, I do think Holmgren has done well as a GM overall because of where the team is now compared to where it was when he took over. But, if it's an award for this year, he's not even close.
Not going to say he deserves it, because I don't think he does, but what makes you think it's not close. What GM's would you put up there that have made deals from last year's trade deadline timeframe (when some teams start preparing for the next season) up until now, that would make Holmgren's acquisitions pale in comparison?

IN: Bobrovsky, Zherdev, Meszaros, O'Donnell, Shelley, Walker, Leino (yes, I'm counting it since it's a trade deadline acquisiton but if you throw it out, I won't care)

OUT: Gagne, Parent, Krajicek, Cote, Tollefsen (see Leino)

That's hard to beat. I think there are some better jobs done this offseason, but Holmgren certainly deserves some recognition.

Atlanta comes to mind first and foremost. Tampa Bay as well. Some others possibly, but Holmgren's offseason was very good. Not the best, but very good.

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11-28-2010, 10:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
you must not understand "asset management" either...
You're the guy who wouldn't hear a bad word said about Stevens aren't you?

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11-28-2010, 10:38 PM
  #33
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So instead of one extreme of condemning him for it, you go to the other by saying 2.8 mil in cap space (until 2013) is irrelevant?

I would say at the least its noteworthy, especially considering the topic at hand is "GM of the Year" and those irrelevant signings are the bulk of what he did this summer. I'm not advocating he's a horrible GM, far from it, but let's not enter lollypop land either.
In the bigger picture, I think they are pretty irrelevant. If they ever become a problem then they're waived. Acquiring Walker also gave us room to bring in Zherdev let's remember. Considering Gagne may well not have played all season, we've effectively got a free forward in here.

Shelley's also not playing too badly right now! Can't believe i'm saying that, but it's true. Three years was a bit weird, but he's also waiveable.

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11-28-2010, 10:50 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
In the bigger picture, I think they are pretty irrelevant. If they ever become a problem then they're waived. Acquiring Walker also gave us room to bring in Zherdev let's remember. Considering Gagne may well not have played all season, we've effectively got a free forward in here.

Shelley's also not playing too badly right now! Can't believe i'm saying that, but it's true. Three years was a bit weird, but he's also waiveable.
Don't confuse getting your jock carried around by a defensive stud in Betts for playing well. Shelley has the commendable "skill" of not trying to do stuff that he can't really do (a problem for some goons), but what he can do is pretty much non-existent because of his piss-poor skating ability.

What is truly shocking about him is he doesn't even really throw big hits... would be nice if he at least rocked a few folks (guess you need to move quick enough to do it).

And you can't just run around waiving everyone... for starters, it's wasting your allotted contracts; and second, it's wasting roster spots in the AHL.

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11-28-2010, 11:00 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Don't confuse getting your jock carried around by a defensive stud in Betts for playing well. Shelley has the commendable "skill" of not trying to do stuff that he can't really do (a problem for some goons), but what he can do is pretty much non-existent because of his piss-poor skating ability.

What is truly shocking about him is he doesn't even really throw big hits... would be nice if he at least rocked a few folks (guess you need to move quick enough to do it).

And you can't just run around waiving everyone... for starters, it's wasting your allotted contracts; and second, it's wasting roster spots in the AHL.
Plus wasted money. Not that the fans give a **** or that it's a big deal for the guys who write the checks.

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11-28-2010, 11:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Plus wasted money. Not that the fans give a **** or that it's a big deal for the guys who write the checks.
Yeah, I don't care about that... and I doubt that Comcast really cares based on previous operating procedure. I do care about it creating problems with signing young players that might be something down the road, and taking up roster spots in the AHL.

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11-28-2010, 11:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Not going to say he deserves it, because I don't think he does, but what makes you think it's not close. What GM's would you put up there that have made deals from last year's trade deadline timeframe (when some teams start preparing for the next season) up until now, that would make Holmgren's acquisitions pale in comparison?

IN: Bobrovsky, Zherdev, Meszaros, O'Donnell, Shelley, Walker, Leino (yes, I'm counting it since it's a trade deadline acquisiton but if you throw it out, I won't care)

OUT: Gagne, Parent, Krajicek, Cote, Tollefsen (see Leino)

That's hard to beat. I think there are some better jobs done this offseason, but Holmgren certainly deserves some recognition.

Atlanta comes to mind first and foremost. Tampa Bay as well. Some others possibly, but Holmgren's offseason was very good. Not the best, but very good.
I'm not counting the Leino trade since it was last season, and that hurts him because it was imo his best move since Zhitnik for Coburn. I don't think it's fair to say that teams start preparing for the next season at the deadline- obviously its true for some teams, but for others it's more about the upcoming playoffs.

I think he lucked into a real starting goalie for this season. He gets points for signing Bob at all, but he wasn't supposed to be ready to handle a starting NHL job, Homer gave Leighton the money for that instead. Then you've got O'Donnell, Mesz and Zherdev in on the positive side. I don't like Shelley and Walker being here at the salaries they've got, so to me they're negatives.

So he spent a good amount of cap space to get a little bit better, and I don't think that warrants GM of the Year. Honestly it's too early to be giving out the award but if I was going to name frontrunners, I thought the Blues, Lightning and Bruins had nice offseasons, to name a few.

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Old
11-28-2010, 11:22 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I'm not counting the Leino trade since it was last season, and that hurts him because it was imo his best move since Zhitnik for Coburn. I don't think it's fair to say that teams start preparing for the next season at the deadline- obviously its true for some teams, but for others it's more about the upcoming playoffs.

I think he lucked into a real starting goalie for this season. He gets points for signing Bob at all, but he wasn't supposed to be ready to handle a starting NHL job, Homer gave Leighton the money for that instead. Then you've got O'Donnell, Mesz and Zherdev in on the positive side. I don't like Shelley and Walker being here at the salaries they've got, so to me they're negatives.

So he spent a good amount of cap space to get a little bit better, and I don't think that warrants GM of the Year. Honestly it's too early to be giving out the award but if I was going to name frontrunners, I thought the Blues, Lightning and Bruins had nice offseasons, to name a few.
Between Leighton getting hurt and Bob playing as well as he has thus far... definition of the phrase: it's better to be lucky than good.

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Old
11-28-2010, 11:39 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I'm not counting the Leino trade since it was last season, and that hurts him because it was imo his best move since Zhitnik for Coburn. I don't think it's fair to say that teams start preparing for the next season at the deadline- obviously its true for some teams, but for others it's more about the upcoming playoffs.

I think he lucked into a real starting goalie for this season. He gets points for signing Bob at all, but he wasn't supposed to be ready to handle a starting NHL job, Homer gave Leighton the money for that instead. Then you've got O'Donnell, Mesz and Zherdev in on the positive side. I don't like Shelley and Walker being here at the salaries they've got, so to me they're negatives.

So he spent a good amount of cap space to get a little bit better, and I don't think that warrants GM of the Year. Honestly it's too early to be giving out the award but if I was going to name frontrunners, I thought the Blues, Lightning and Bruins had nice offseasons, to name a few.
Yeah, far too early to call GM of the year, but I have very high expectations for Yzerman personally.

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Between Leighton getting hurt and Bob playing as well as he has thus far... definition of the phrase: it's better to be lucky than good.
As far as the media is concerned, they don't know the difference. Some fans don't either, granted, but the media is typically very formulaic and predictable with their thought process.

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11-28-2010, 11:55 PM
  #40
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Yeah, far too early to call GM of the year, but I have very high expectations for Yzerman personally.
How can you not? Dude unloaded $5.7M in cap space to us for an expiring contract in Gagne (who I believe will ultimately be a positive for that team this year) and upgraded a 4th to a 2nd rd pick.

All with the Stamkos signing staring him in the face.

And Meszaros has been fine for us, but not $4M a year fine... and it would be pretty devastating if he wasn't looking good with 3rd pairing minutes.

Quote:
As far as the media is concerned, they don't know the difference. Some fans don't either, granted, but the media is typically very formulaic and predictable with their thought process.
...or lack thereof as the case might be.

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Old
11-28-2010, 11:56 PM
  #41
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but not $4M a year fine.
Everything else was good, except that comment right there; a completely delusional outburst.

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11-29-2010, 12:01 AM
  #42
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Everything else was good, except that comment right there; a completely delusional outburst.
Apparently they aren't bothering to teach the English language to English majors these days if that's what you think an "outburst" is.

23 pts isn't enough for $4M a year with 2.5 minutes of PP time a game. That's a simple fact. Both Meszaros and O'Donnell are enjoying the same +/- fun we saw with Kukkonen and Jones a few years back in the early going, and it will rectify itself over the course of the year.

At what point do we discuss the fact that a significant portion of our PP woes to date is that beyond Timonen and Pronger we've gotten NOTHING from our D on the PP? (Like, literally, none of 'em have a point on the PP.)

EDIT: And, for the record, if I put an anonymous UFA D in front of you that had put up 23 pts (with notable PP time) on the 3rd ranked offense in hockey, and he wasn't a defensive stopper (no, Meszaros is not a defensive stopper, both he and O'Donnell are benefiting from playing the easiest D shift on a very good team)... you're delusional if you're suggesting you'd sign that anonymous player to a $4M/year deal.


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Old
11-29-2010, 12:28 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Apparently they aren't bothering to teach the English language to English majors these days if that's what you think an "outburst" is.

23 pts isn't enough for $4M a year with 2.5 minutes of PP time a game. That's a simple fact. Both Meszaros and O'Donnell are enjoying the same +/- fun we saw with Kukkonen and Jones a few years back in the early going, and it will rectify itself over the course of the year.

At what point do we discuss the fact that a significant portion of our PP woes to date is that beyond Timonen and Pronger we've gotten NOTHING from our D on the PP? (Like, literally, none of 'em have a point on the PP.)

EDIT: And, for the record, if I put an anonymous UFA D in front of you that had put up 23 pts (with notable PP time) on the 3rd ranked offense in hockey, and he wasn't a defensive stopper (no, Meszaros is not a defensive stopper, both he and O'Donnell are benefiting from playing the easiest D shift on a very good team)... you're delusional if you're suggesting you'd sign that anonymous player to a $4M/year deal.
OD has been everything advertised (and he does stand a better chance of maintaining a high +/- than Kukks and Jones did) but I was shocked when I looked at Meszaros' stats. 7 points through 24 games for 4M a year... ouch.

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11-29-2010, 12:34 AM
  #44
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I think Mike Gillis deserves the nod so far.

He acquired a couple of decent D-men and both his free agent signings are looking really good right now (Malhotra and Torres).

Holmgren's highlight as GM was acquiring Chris Pronger where he clearly paid dearly in Lupul + Sbisa + 2 1sts.

The rest of his core is inherited from Clarke, from what I remember.

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11-29-2010, 12:36 AM
  #45
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OD has been everything advertised (and he does stand a better chance of maintaining a high +/- than Kukks and Jones did) but I was shocked when I looked at Meszaros' stats. 7 points through 24 games for 4M a year... ouch.
Oh, I don't think their +/- is going to plummet or anything... if you're solid on a good team you can pad a nice +/- (one of the problems with the stat). However, it would be relatively surprising to see them keep up their +50 pace.

The lack of production of our supporting D on the PP is a significant problem, I think... and a big reason the PP has been hit and miss. When the top guys are clicking, we're fine... but there's no back up when they go into a lull.

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11-29-2010, 12:38 AM
  #46
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I think Mike Gillis deserves the nod so far.

He acquired a couple of decent D-men and both his free agent signings are looking really good right now (Malhotra and Torres).

Holmgren's highlight as GM was acquiring Chris Pronger where he clearly paid dearly in Lupul + Sbisa + 2 1sts.

The rest of his core is inherited from Clarke, from what I remember.
Timonen, Hartnell, and Briere all came from Holmgren... and Timonen and Briere are definitely part of the core of this team.

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11-29-2010, 12:46 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Hot Fuss View Post
I think Mike Gillis deserves the nod so far.

He acquired a couple of decent D-men and both his free agent signings are looking really good right now (Malhotra and Torres).

Holmgren's highlight as GM was acquiring Chris Pronger where he clearly paid dearly in Lupul + Sbisa + 2 1sts.

The rest of his core is inherited from Clarke, from what I remember.
I live under the assumption that one of those 1sts was to actually dump Lupul. Man did that contract look terrible after the fact.

Also...

vanRiemsdyk (2007) - Richards (2003) - Nodl (2006)
Hartnell (2007) - Briere (2007) - Leino (2010)
Carter (2003) - Giroux (2006) - Zherdev (2010)
Powe (2006) - Betts (2009) - Shelley (2010)
Carcillo (2009) - Wellwood (2009)

Pronger (2009) - Carle (2008)
Timonen (2007) - Coburn (2007)
Meszaros (2010) - O'Donnell (2010)
Bartulis (2005) - Walker (2010)

Bobrovsky (2010)
Leighton (2009)
Boucher (2009)

Bold denotes acquisition under Paul Holmgren.


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11-29-2010, 12:51 AM
  #48
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I live under the assumption that one of those 1sts was to actually dump Lupul. Man did that contract look terrible after the fact.
It was terrible the moment they printed it... we couldn't afford to give out that contract at that point, and, more importantly, there was no reason to do it at the time (similar to Umberger, Lupul would have had good value as an arbitration RFA with no salary number hanging on him).

In the thread announcing the deal I'm pretty sure I stated he'd be traded.

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11-29-2010, 12:55 AM
  #49
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I live under the assumption that one of those 1sts was to actually dump Lupul. Man did that contract look terrible after the fact.
Don't forget that he had to up the ante after he got locked into a fierce bidding war with Paul Holmgren of the Philadelphia Flyers.

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11-29-2010, 02:42 AM
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Oh great. Another bash Homlgren thread.

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