HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Mike Modano, a Hall of Famer?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-28-2010, 01:59 AM
  #226
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,433
vCash: 500
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
The bolded should be the critera for HOF enshrinement, sadly it is not. Just hanging around a long time and accumulating number is all it seems to take and Modano did that.

He should not get in but will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Good heaven's, seriously? Modano was one of the most dominant centermen in the league for several years in his prime. As an fellow Oiler fan, surely you remember how many times this player ruined our evening.
I had the same thought reading this post, not every hall guy is Wayne or Bobby and Modano is certainly better and more deserving than at least 50 guys in the hall right now.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 04:34 AM
  #227
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Good heaven's, seriously? Modano was one of the most dominant centermen in the league for several years in his prime. As an fellow Oiler fan, surely you remember how many times this player ruined our evening.
When was he ever considered one of the top 3 or 5 players in the game? When was he ever given serious consideration for a Hart Trophy? When did he ever carry a team on his back to Stanley Cup glory?

He did none of that stuff but, he was good and played a long time. Accumulating a lot of points in a lengthy career but never being one of the very best in the game is a hollow accomplishment. Being a face in the crowd for 20 years like Modano was shouldn't get him placed beside Beliveau, Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux as the very greatest the game has ever seen.

He will get in but he is another weak selection. The HOF sadly isn't about showcasing the greatest players in the history of the game; that sullies the honor and makes it much less significant. Great should be the criteria not good.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 05:36 AM
  #228
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
Pretty good argument Modano should have a Conn Smythe trophy: http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...g-numbers.html

Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 05:37 AM
  #229
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,217
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
When was he ever considered one of the top 3 or 5 players in the game? When was he ever given serious consideration for a Hart Trophy? When did he ever carry a team on his back to Stanley Cup glory?

He did none of that stuff but, he was good and played a long time. Accumulating a lot of points in a lengthy career but never being one of the very best in the game is a hollow accomplishment. Being a face in the crowd for 20 years like Modano was shouldn't get him placed beside Beliveau, Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux as the very greatest the game has ever seen.

He will get in but he is another weak selection. The HOF sadly isn't about showcasing the greatest players in the history of the game; that sullies the honor and makes it much less significant. Great should be the criteria not good.
Its the Hall of fame, not the hall of the absolute best. Modano will get in because of:

"Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and their contribution to the team or teams and to the game of hockey in general."

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 11:58 AM
  #230
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Evil Empire
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
When was he ever considered one of the top 3 or 5 players in the game? When was he ever given serious consideration for a Hart Trophy? When did he ever carry a team on his back to Stanley Cup glory?

He did none of that stuff but, he was good and played a long time. Accumulating a lot of points in a lengthy career but never being one of the very best in the game is a hollow accomplishment. Being a face in the crowd for 20 years like Modano was shouldn't get him placed beside Beliveau, Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux as the very greatest the game has ever seen.

He will get in but he is another weak selection. The HOF sadly isn't about showcasing the greatest players in the history of the game; that sullies the honor and makes it much less significant. Great should be the criteria not good.
So how many "great" players have we seen throughout history by your criteria? 30?

Like Hardyvan says, there are a good 50 players currently in the HOF that were not as good as Modano. There's no justification to keeping him out.

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 12:19 PM
  #231
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,686
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
How can it not matter? Modano was competing against the same talent pool as Hawerchuk (if you make the simplifying assumption that Canada was producing the same amount of players) plus elite players from Europe and USA that Hawerchuk for the most part was not. I'm aware that Hawerchuk did compete against some Europeans and Americans, but I think it's obvious that the amount of elite American and European players was much greater in Modano's time. With the exception of Gretzky and Lemieux, two obvious outliers, Hawerchuk's competition was clearly a notch below Modano's.
Yeah I can't buy this bolded argument. You can't tell me that you watched hockey in the 1980s and seriously hold this opinion can you? First off, ANY era is hard. Let's agree on that. But if push comes to shove and you get to the nitty gritty of it then let's decide who might have had a bit tougher time to stand out.

Top 10 scorers:

1984-'85- Gretzky, Kurri, Hawerchuk, Dionne, Coffey, Bossy, Ogrodnick, Savard, Federko, Gartner
1985-'86 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Coffey, Kurri, Bossy, Stastny, Savard, Naslund, Hawerchuk, Broten
1986-'87 - Gretzky, Kurri, Lemieux, Messier, Gilmour, Ciccarelli, Hawerchuk, Goulet, Kerr, Bourque
1987-'88 - Lemieux, Gretzky, Savard, Hawerchuk, Robitaille, Stastny, Messier, Carson, Loob, Goulet

Plus the years where he narrowly missed the top 10:
1983-'84 - Gretzky, Coffey, Goulet, Stastny, Bossy, Pederson, Kurri, Trottier, Federko, Middleton, Hawerchuk
1988-'89 - Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Nicholls, Brown, Coffey, Mullen, Kurri, Carson, Robitaille, Hawerchuk

Modano's top 10:

1999-'00 - Jagr, Bure, Recchi, Kariya, Selanne, Nolan, Amonte, Modano, Sakic, Yzerman
2001-'02 - Iginla, Naslund, Bertuzzi, Sundin, Jagr, Sakic, Demitra, Oates, Modano, Francis

The year where he narrowly missed it:
2002-'03 - Forsberg, Naslund, Thornton, Hejduk, Bertuzzi, Demitra, Murray, Lemieux, Heatley, Palffy, Modano

Call it how you see it, but I'm giving Hawerchuk's the edge as far as tougher top flight competition. Not to mention because of that competition he still stood out better than Modano. It doesn't take anything away from Modano, but he was 30 years old before he was a top 10 scorer and he didn't stay at that level as long either.

Quote:
Factor in Gretzky/Lemieux and their teammates though and Hawerchuk's competition for top 10 spots is certainly harder than the smaller talent pool would indicate.
But that's the thing, they WERE there. They were the NHL at that time. Much like Jagr (on a lower level) was when Modano was at his peak. I'm not removing Jagr from that time either, why should we cancel out Mario and Wayne?

Big Phil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 12:24 PM
  #232
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,433
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Of course.

What's next? Forsberg, a Hall of Famer?
In a word yes

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 12:30 PM
  #233
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,686
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
When was he ever considered one of the top 3 or 5 players in the game? When was he ever given serious consideration for a Hart Trophy? When did he ever carry a team on his back to Stanley Cup glory?
My previous thread took shots at Modano because he was being compared to Hawerchuk. That's all fine and dandy because he isn't Hawerchuk, but he's a HHOFer in my book. He was never a top 5 player in the game. But there would be a time when you would certainly consider him to be in the top 10 over a few years. His only "shot" at the Hart Trophy was 1998 when he was on a tear before Marchment took his knee out. But I won't give him points for "shoulda, coulda" but that could have been a good year for him.

1999 is a year I think he took a team about as close to his back as possible. Yes Nieuwendyk won the Smythe, but many here (not me) thought Modano should have which is a testament to how valuable he was that spring. Besides, of great players with just one Cup and no Smythe would be Bobby Hull, Sidney Crosby, Martin St. Louis and more recently Eric Staal, Ryan Getzlaf and Pavel Datsyuk. No Smythe, but these guys all won a Cup and were instrumental to their team winning. Hull's in the HHOF, Crosby will be neck and neck with him if not better by the end of his career and Staal, St. Louis, Getzlaf and Datsyuk are on the right paths.

Plus Modano was a Conn Smythe in waiting in 2000 had Dallas won. There's another crucial trip to the final in which he took the team by the scruff of the neck with Brett Hull.

Quote:
He did none of that stuff but, he was good and played a long time. Accumulating a lot of points in a lengthy career but never being one of the very best in the game is a hollow accomplishment. Being a face in the crowd for 20 years like Modano was shouldn't get him placed beside Beliveau, Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux as the very greatest the game has ever seen.
You know as well as I do that Modano was more than a face in the crowd. No he wasn't Beliveau and such, but who was? What........5 guys maybe? Modano was thought to be a great player in his generation and this is what the HHOF is about.

Big Phil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 12:35 PM
  #234
JackSlater
Registered User
 
JackSlater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah I can't buy this bolded argument. You can't tell me that you watched hockey in the 1980s and seriously hold this opinion can you? First off, ANY era is hard. Let's agree on that. But if push comes to shove and you get to the nitty gritty of it then let's decide who might have had a bit tougher time to stand out.

Top 10 scorers:

1984-'85- Gretzky, Kurri, Hawerchuk, Dionne, Coffey, Bossy, Ogrodnick, Savard, Federko, Gartner
1985-'86 - Gretzky, Lemieux, Coffey, Kurri, Bossy, Stastny, Savard, Naslund, Hawerchuk, Broten
1986-'87 - Gretzky, Kurri, Lemieux, Messier, Gilmour, Ciccarelli, Hawerchuk, Goulet, Kerr, Bourque
1987-'88 - Lemieux, Gretzky, Savard, Hawerchuk, Robitaille, Stastny, Messier, Carson, Loob, Goulet

Plus the years where he narrowly missed the top 10:
1983-'84 - Gretzky, Coffey, Goulet, Stastny, Bossy, Pederson, Kurri, Trottier, Federko, Middleton, Hawerchuk
1988-'89 - Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Nicholls, Brown, Coffey, Mullen, Kurri, Carson, Robitaille, Hawerchuk

Modano's top 10:

1999-'00 - Jagr, Bure, Recchi, Kariya, Selanne, Nolan, Amonte, Modano, Sakic, Yzerman
2001-'02 - Iginla, Naslund, Bertuzzi, Sundin, Jagr, Sakic, Demitra, Oates, Modano, Francis

The year where he narrowly missed it:
2002-'03 - Forsberg, Naslund, Thornton, Hejduk, Bertuzzi, Demitra, Murray, Lemieux, Heatley, Palffy, Modano

Call it how you see it, but I'm giving Hawerchuk's the edge as far as tougher top flight competition. Not to mention because of that competition he still stood out better than Modano. It doesn't take anything away from Modano, but he was 30 years old before he was a top 10 scorer and he didn't stay at that level as long either.



But that's the thing, they WERE there. They were the NHL at that time. Much like Jagr (on a lower level) was when Modano was at his peak. I'm not removing Jagr from that time either, why should we cancel out Mario and Wayne?
I was not advocating the removal of Gretzky and Lemieux from the comparison at all. Since they are such special cases they need to be given special consideration, which improves the value of Hawerchuk's finishes. We definitely agree on that. I also agree that Hawerchuk had better results, which makes sense as I consider him to be the better offensive player. I would have a tough time agreeing that Hawerchuk has definitively superior top end competition, but the special cases presented by Gretzky and Lemieux certainly make it closer than it would otherwise be.

JackSlater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 01:47 PM
  #235
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
So how many "great" players have we seen throughout history by your criteria? 30?

Like Hardyvan says, there are a good 50 players currently in the HOF that were not as good as Modano. There's no justification to keeping him out.
There are approximately 100 skaters and 25 goalies that "deserve" to be in the HOF.

Modano better than 50 HOFers? Not a chance. 5 maybe, and those 5 don't deserve to be in the HOF either.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 02:31 PM
  #236
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Evil Empire
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
There are approximately 100 skaters and 25 goalies that "deserve" to be in the HOF.
Not sure where you get this number from. The HOF has never inducted players at such a low rate that would suggest only 125 should have been inducted after 117 years of Stanley Cup hockey.

Quote:
Modano better than 50 HOFers? Not a chance. 5 maybe, and those 5 don't deserve to be in the HOF either.


You must have an extremely low opinion of Modano.

You can easily argue that he was superior, equal, or not clearly below the follwing inductees from the last 20 years:

Dino Ciccarelli, Luc Robitaille, Igor Larionov, Glenn Anderson, Dick Duff, Cam Neely, Larry Murphy, Clark Gillies, Bernie Federko, Mike Gartner, Joe Mullen, Bobby Bauer, Bun Cook, Harry Watson, Steve Shutt, Edgar Laprade, Lanny McDonald, Bob Gainey, Woody Dumart, Clint Smith, Bob Pulford, and Bill Barber.

I'm not going start arguing which of that list was indeed better or worse than Modano, but you could compare him to any of them and not be laughed at. He is clearly not out of place being included amongst that group. Or are they all undeserving as well?

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 02:52 PM
  #237
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 21,053
vCash: 500
Am I the only one who would have awarded the Smythe to Belfour in 1999?

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 02:53 PM
  #238
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Not sure where you get this number from. The HOF has never inducted players at such a low rate that would suggest only 125 should have been inducted after 117 years of Stanley Cup hockey.





You must have an extremely low opinion of Modano.

You can easily argue that he was superior, equal, or not clearly below the follwing inductees from the last 20 years:

Dino Ciccarelli, Luc Robitaille, Igor Larionov, Glenn Anderson, Dick Duff, Cam Neely, Larry Murphy, Clark Gillies, Bernie Federko, Mike Gartner, Joe Mullen, Bobby Bauer, Bun Cook, Harry Watson, Steve Shutt, Edgar Laprade, Lanny McDonald, Bob Gainey, Woody Dumart, Clint Smith, Bob Pulford, and Bill Barber.

I'm not going start arguing which of that list was indeed better or worse than Modano, but you could compare him to any of them and not be laughed at. He is clearly not out of place being included amongst that group. Or are they all undeserving as well?
Remember, Ogogogo values peak regular season offense alone when it comes to forwards. So all of Modano's defensive ability, his playoff heroics, etc are meangingless.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 03:03 PM
  #239
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,433
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Remember, Ogogogo values peak regular season offense alone when it comes to forwards. So all of Modano's defensive ability, his playoff heroics, etc are meangingless.
I guess a narrow view like that would put Modano out of his Hall but it's not very indicative of how the game of hockey has ever been played except maybe during all-star games.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 04:29 PM
  #240
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Remember, Ogogogo values peak regular season offense alone when it comes to forwards. So all of Modano's defensive ability, his playoff heroics, etc are meangingless.
Spreading misinformation does not aid in the discussion.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 04:30 PM
  #241
Doctor No
Retired
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 23,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Spreading misinformation does not aid in the discussion.
When you insist upon not discussing your methods, you open up the need for others to speculate. You can't have it both ways.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-28-2010, 04:45 PM
  #242
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,686
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Am I the only one who would have awarded the Smythe to Belfour in 1999?
No, it has been brought up a time or two in the past. However, it is in the extreme minority and in my honest opinion Belfour was not jobbed of the award

Big Phil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2010, 05:16 PM
  #243
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,100
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No, it has been brought up a time or two in the past. However, it is in the extreme minority and in my honest opinion Belfour was not jobbed of the award
no, not nearly as much as Modano was.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2010, 05:42 PM
  #244
Derick*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,624
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Derick*
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Am I the only one who would have awarded the Smythe to Belfour in 1999?
Yes.

Hasek had a better save percentage behind the Sabres than Belfour, who was playing behind a powerhouse Stars team and Ken Hitchcock, "whose dream it was to win a game 0 to -1."

Derick* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2010, 07:29 PM
  #245
Infinite Vision*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Not sure where you get this number from. The HOF has never inducted players at such a low rate that would suggest only 125 should have been inducted after 117 years of Stanley Cup hockey.





You must have an extremely low opinion of Modano.

You can easily argue that he was superior, equal, or not clearly below the follwing inductees from the last 20 years:

Dino Ciccarelli, Luc Robitaille, Igor Larionov, Glenn Anderson, Dick Duff, Cam Neely, Larry Murphy, Clark Gillies, Bernie Federko, Mike Gartner, Joe Mullen, Bobby Bauer, Bun Cook, Harry Watson, Steve Shutt, Edgar Laprade, Lanny McDonald, Bob Gainey, Woody Dumart, Clint Smith, Bob Pulford, and Bill Barber.

I'm not going start arguing which of that list was indeed better or worse than Modano, but you could compare him to any of them and not be laughed at. He is clearly not out of place being included amongst that group. Or are they all undeserving as well?
I can comfortably say he was better than all of those guys.

Infinite Vision* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-29-2010, 07:46 PM
  #246
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,293
vCash: 500
If there was an imaginary Hall of Fame with only 125 players then no, Modano probably wouldn't qualify. But that Hall of Fame doesn't exist.

In reality, there are 245 players inducted in the Hall of Fame. So that's about a rate of two players for every year the Stanley Cup has been around. Those are the standards. Pretending that the standards should be twice as difficult may be an interesting debate, but it's not what the Hall has ever been.

Is Modano among the best 245 players ever? Absolutely.

What's next? Maybe they shouldn't award anyone the Hart Trophy in years when no player has a truly dominant, legendary season?

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-30-2010, 03:27 AM
  #247
finchster
Registered User
 
finchster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Belgorod
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 7,613
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to finchster
I was on the fence with Modano, honestly speaking I never thought much of him in his prime. Good player? Yes. Elite player? I didn’t think so. Looking back on it, Modano was consistently voted as a top five centre in all star voting for almost a decade. Throw in being a good playoff performer (But I don’t believe he was ‘robbed’ of the Conn Smythe in 1999), his American records, his great defensive play and he is for sure going to the HHOF. I think a good comparison might be Dave Keon.

finchster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.