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Old
11-30-2010, 03:26 PM
  #26
William H Bonney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Where are the practice sessions where he is skating players into the ground?

You think he is capable of benching Doughty? I don't, even though I think its about time to do so. A message needs to be sent, one loud enough that the entire hockey world will take notice.
I agree here. I've always called Murray's system of accountability a fraud and if I'm noticing it, the players probably took notice long before I did. Murray and Lombardi's scapegoat is now with the Rangers. Murray claims accountability from all players but what he means is everyone sans Kopitar, Brown, Quick, Doughty, Stoll, Smyth, and JJ to an extent.

Last night was the perfect opportunity to make a statement by sitting Doughty for the entire 3rd period. But when he does it to Simmonds or Parse or Richardson or Williams, the team takes notice. Or when a guy like King steps in and gets not just a spot on the 1st line but an extended stay, the team takes notice. It's one thing if King had been on the 4th line for awhile and earned that spot by working his tail off (like Trevor Lewis was) and Murray promoted him and said, "Guys...that's how we ALL need to work. Work like that and good things will happen on the score sheet, for the team, and for your own promotions." But that's not how it went. More darts at the board.

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Old
11-30-2010, 03:35 PM
  #27
scramble91
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Originally Posted by Lars H View Post
Seems reasonable. Tough to break up the Geezer line to try to get Kopitar's group going, but something needed to be done and besides, the Geezers haven't been scoring lately, either.

The speedy Ducks second line exposed the Handzus + Two Rookies stopper line last night. A couple of posts and a couple of lucky bounces provided most of that line's stopping power. Moving Simmonds back to Handzus' wing brings the line back to 2/3rds of its original strength.

Things will settle down when Ponikarovsky and Mitchell get back. Murray won't have to worry about the Handzus line nor his defense pairings. But it'll be rough-going in the meanwhile.
Actually, the ducks matched up the selanne line against our geezer line...which was exposed on the defensive end with their speedy players. The matchups were kind of interesting last night, as they matched first and second lines against each other for most of the game.

THe 3rd line needs simmonds there for puck possesion, because lewis and clifford arent as good in that regard. I think these line combos might be better because it will allow the 3rd line to put up some points like they did last season (and when poni was there).

My only beef is with lewis..he has been a great 4th line guy, but putting him on the second line has me worried. He doesnt seem to have the offensive instincts...i think clifford has a higher offensive upside than lewis from what i have seen so far.

But to agree with a majority...its hard to put together a good top 6 when we have a glaring hole. Whats disgusting, is look at the top 6 on the ducks...elite first line and a damn speedy skilled second line. (granted their D is horrible)...at least we could find the middle ground somewhere lol.

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Old
11-30-2010, 03:51 PM
  #28
BallPointHammer
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How about,

Smyth-Kopitar-Williams (give chance to prove early last season wasn't a fluke)
Stoll-Schenn-Brown (second line by elimination process, chemistry possible)
Richardson-Lewis-Simmonds (speed line would be a new weapon)
Clifford-Zeiler-Westgarth (a real energy line)

Handzus (seems way off game)
King (should be sent back to Manchester)

Just an idea to form lines with a clear role.

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Old
11-30-2010, 03:53 PM
  #29
AKAY47
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Originally Posted by BallPointHammer View Post
How about,

Smyth-Kopitar-Williams (give chance to prove early last season wasn't a fluke)
Stoll-Schenn-Brown (second line by elimination process, chemistry possible)
Richardson-Lewis-Simmonds (speed line would be a new weapon)
Clifford-Zeiler-Westgarth (a real energy line)

Handzus (seems way off game)
King (should be sent back to Manchester)

Just an idea to form lines with a clear role.
I really like this, not going to lie lol, but maybe but Zeus on the 4th line, can't really have him sitting just for the fun of it

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Old
11-30-2010, 03:56 PM
  #30
William H Bonney
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Originally Posted by BallPointHammer View Post
How about,

Smyth-Kopitar-Williams (give chance to prove early last season wasn't a fluke)
Stoll-Schenn-Brown (second line by elimination process, chemistry possible)
Richardson-Lewis-Simmonds (speed line would be a new weapon)
Clifford-Zeiler-Westgarth (a real energy line)

Handzus (seems way off game)
King (should be sent back to Manchester)

Just an idea to form lines with a clear role.
Handzus does seem off but he still needs to be in there.

Big thing though is we can't afford to not have Stoll at center. He's the only guy we have that can consistently win a face off.

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Old
11-30-2010, 03:59 PM
  #31
BallPointHammer
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I really like this, not going to lie lol, but maybe but Zeus on the 4th line, can't really have him sitting just for the fun of it
Originally had - Clifford-Zeiler/Handzus-Westgarth - should have kept it that way. Really though any combination of the four could be effective.

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Old
11-30-2010, 04:02 PM
  #32
scramble91
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
Handzus does seem off but he still needs to be in there.

Big thing though is we can't afford to not have Stoll at center. He's the only guy we have that can consistently win a face off.
Stoll could still just take the faceoffs...doesnt mean he has to play center.

I like the premise of this idea tho...I would just change up the 3rd and 4th lines because I dont think Lewis, Richie, and simmonds would make a good shutdown line. They are too small to go against some of the Biggest and Best lines in the NHL.

Smyth-Kopitar-Williams
Stoll-Schenn-Brown
Clifford-Zues-Simmonds
Richie-Lewis-Zeiler

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11-30-2010, 04:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
Handzus does seem off but he still needs to be in there.

Big thing though is we can't afford to not have Stoll at center. He's the only guy we have that can consistently win a face off.
Stoll could still take the face offs. In fact he probably should for all four lines.

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11-30-2010, 04:03 PM
  #34
Ziggy Stardust
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FYI, the Kings have only one center who is over 50% in draws, with Stoll at 58%. Handzus is at 47.2% and Kopitar is 46.8%. Lewis and Richardson have been pretty bad on faceoffs at 43% and 42% respectively.

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11-30-2010, 04:17 PM
  #35
William H Bonney
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Originally Posted by scramble91 View Post
Stoll could still just take the faceoffs...doesnt mean he has to play center.
True but I don't see the point in having Schenn take the defensive assignment when that's what Murray and co. are wanting him to work on before making a decision. The only reason not to put him at wing is because Murray "canít visualize him playing out of position right now.Ē Other guys? Sure. Schenn? No way! Young centers play wing all the time and Schenn would probably be better at it than most given his board work is pretty good for a 19-year old. And yes, I realize Murray's answer is just posturing to stave off the "Play Schenn!" calls because they don't want to have to make a decision on where he plays this year...yet.

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11-30-2010, 04:21 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by scramble91 View Post
Actually, the ducks matched up the selanne line against our geezer line...which was exposed on the defensive end with their speedy players. The matchups were kind of interesting last night, as they matched first and second lines against each other for most of the game.
Aww. so they were. thanks for the correction.

Quote:
THe 3rd line needs simmonds there for puck possesion, because lewis and clifford arent as good in that regard. I think these line combos might be better because it will allow the 3rd line to put up some points like they did last season (and when poni was there).
We agree. The third line is the key to Murray's system. Clifford has shown more along the boards than Lewis, so that may be part of the reason why he's staying put.

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My only beef is with lewis..he has been a great 4th line guy, but putting him on the second line has me worried. He doesnt seem to have the offensive instincts...i think clifford has a higher offensive upside than lewis from what i have seen so far.
I think this decision is to reward Lewis' recent play and to get some speed on the second group and, maybe most of all, to spread the rookies around (the last two games Murray iced two lines with two rookies each; this lineup cuts that to one line (the 4th)). I disagree that Clifford has more offensive upside than Lewis does. He's definitely more physical.

Quote:
But to agree with a majority...its hard to put together a good top 6 when we have a glaring hole. Whats disgusting, is look at the top 6 on the ducks...elite first line and a damn speedy skilled second line. (granted their D is horrible)...at least we could find the middle ground somewhere lol.
I think the idea out of camp was to let Parse do his best and be happy if he got 20 goals, and then take a long look at what's available at the trade deadline.

"The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men / gang aft agley..."

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Old
11-30-2010, 06:46 PM
  #37
Josh Deitell
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Where are the practice sessions where he is skating players into the ground?

You think he is capable of benching Doughty? I don't, even though I think its about time to do so. A message needs to be sent, one loud enough that the entire hockey world will take notice.
I won't pretend to know what goes on in the practices, being that I live a couple hours away and can only make it in for games, but I'm not sure that practice is the issue. If the players come to the practice rink and work their ***** off and play hard and then go out and fail to execute on game day, the practice routines aren't necessarily the problem. I think it's more of a mental breakdown that occurs during games, in which case it's something that needs to be. I have a strong feeling that if this team gets a few lucky bounce goals, which we haven't in a while, they'll start to believe in their ability to win games again and the ship will be righted. It seems oversimplified, but this team is thinking, "Oh god, not this **** again," every time they get scored on, and that's preventing them from winning hockey games.

I don't think he'll bench Doughty, no, but do you really think this team is better off with Doughty on the bench than on the ice? You play the team with the best chance to win. Even with Doughty playing decent hockey, he's still one of the better defensemen on the ice. Not to mention that he really needs to play to round into form.

If you bench Doughty and the powerplay starts clicking, then what? This powerplay needs to start working again WITH Doughty and Kopitar and Johnson and etc involved to get those guys going again.

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11-30-2010, 06:55 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
I won't pretend to know what goes on in the practices, being that I live a couple hours away and can only make it in for games, but I'm not sure that practice is the issue. If the players come to the practice rink and work their ***** off and play hard and then go out and fail to execute on game day, the practice routines aren't necessarily the problem. I think it's more of a mental breakdown that occurs during games, in which case it's something that needs to be. I have a strong feeling that if this team gets a few lucky bounce goals, which we haven't in a while, they'll start to believe in their ability to win games again and the ship will be righted. It seems oversimplified, but this team is thinking, "Oh god, not this **** again," every time they get scored on, and that's preventing them from winning hockey games.
I agree with much of your assessment here. I will say though that mental breakdowns team-wide is up to the leadership and coaching to fix. Attitude must be fixed if they are falling into the self-fullfilling negativity you believe is going on with the team. There are several ways to fix attitude and sometimes "stay the course" is the right way... but there comes a point... and that point is right about now, when people need a kick in the pants. Just hoping for a bounce to go your way and absolve your troubles is too hopeful and not taking enough responsibility. You have to make your own luck.

I'm not at most practices either, but Hammond tends to report when something out of the ordinary goes on, and a grueling skating session, grinding their skate blades to dust, would be out of the ordinary.

Quote:
I don't think he'll bench Doughty, no, but do you really think this team is better off with Doughty on the bench than on the ice? You play the team with the best chance to win. Even with Doughty playing decent hockey, he's still one of the better defensemen on the ice. Not to mention that he really needs to play to round into form.

If you bench Doughty and the powerplay starts clicking, then what? This powerplay needs to start working again WITH Doughty and Kopitar and Johnson and etc involved to get those guys going again.
Two things:

1. No the team is not better off without Doughty. However we can manage one game if the benching helps give Drew some perspective and lights a fire under him that we haven't seen this season outside of hipchecks and post whistle scrums.

2. Doughty is not playing poorly for you average NHL defensemen. He is playing fine if held to the baseline standard. However when we hold him to the standard he has set for himself, he is way below the bar.

Being "one of the better defensemen on the ice" is not good enough. Doughty is a difference maker, and though his defensive play has been generally solid, his offense has vanished. I don't know if its confidence (lack of or overflow) or if he is on a shorter leash when it comes to pinching and rushing the puck, but either way he has not been a positive difference maker on offense which is a big problem that can't be allowed to last.

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Old
11-30-2010, 06:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
He can move andf shuffle as long as he wants.
The reason for not scoring is for sure not that Lewis isn't on the 2nd line.
Now when Stoll is playing like the real Stoll the 2nd line is useless and can't overpower the fact that no line is really able to score on his system.


Serious......... wait for everyone balling up in front of the goal, shotting into the crowd and hope for a deflection, when the puck is behind the net try a wrap around.
Does that looks like a game plan ??????????
Same for the PP. Poinshot means where the faceoff points are and not the points where the blue line conects to the boards.

i'm looking forward to Zeiler as Goalie, Doughty as LW Johnson as center and Brown on defense.
And it's back to bashing Stoll. How long into our slump did you decide it was safe to decide he sucks again? You were surprisingly quiet when he was scoring at a healthy clip. Give the guy a damn break. Sheesh.

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Old
11-30-2010, 07:00 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
I agree with much of your assessment here. I will say though that mental breakdowns team-wide is up to the leadership and coaching to fix. Attitude must be fixed if they are falling into the self-fullfilling negativity you believe is going on with the team. There are several ways to fix attitude and sometimes "stay the course" is the right way... but there comes a point... and that point is right about now, when people need a kick in the pants. Just hoping for a bounce to go your way and absolve your troubles is too hopeful and not taking enough responsibility. You have to make your own luck.

I'm not at most practices either, but Hammond tends to report when something out of the ordinary goes on, and a grueling skating session, grinding their skate blades to dust, would be out of the ordinary.



Two things:

1. No the team is not better off without Doughty. However we can manage one game if the benching helps give Drew some perspective and lights a fire under him that we haven't seen this season outside of hipchecks and post whistle scrums.

2. Doughty is not playing poorly for you average NHL defensemen. He is playing fine if held to the baseline standard. However when we hold him to the standard he has set for himself, he is way below the bar.

Being "one of the better defensemen on the ice" is not good enough. Doughty is a difference maker, and though his defensive play has been generally solid, his offense has vanished. I don't know if its confidence (lack of or overflow) or if he is on a shorter leash when it comes to pinching and rushing the puck, but either way he has not been a positive difference maker on offense which is a big problem that can't be allowed to last.
What if Benching him has the opposite effect, all of you arm chair Coaches ever think of that?

He is a young man you know, Drew does have an ego.

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Old
11-30-2010, 07:01 PM
  #41
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And it's back to bashing Stoll. How long into our slump did you decide it was safe to decide he sucks again? You were surprisingly quiet when he was scoring at a healthy clip. Give the guy a damn break. Sheesh.
O don't worry people will realize how important Stoll is when he is gone; and the team goes 15 for 50 on draws nightly.

If Dean is the GM I think he is; We are going to have another person in the next year or so that can take draws at a 55% clip.

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11-30-2010, 07:04 PM
  #42
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What Benching him has the opposite effect all you arm chair Coaches ever think of that?

He is a young man you know, Drew does have an ego.
Its possible. Every bold move has a possible negative outcome. I'm well aware of that.

If a one game benching makes Drew worse for any length of time... wouldn't that just speak to his character?

And I know Drew has an ego... I think that ego is part of his problem.

The point is the coach can't just keep randomly changing lines when there is a clear and consistent problem. Benching Drew is one option. He has many at his disposal and I'd like to see him utilize one. And before anyone says "what if he is and you don't see it because its behind closed doors"... well to that I would say I should be able to see the end result of improved play.

Its looking like TM's coaching decisions are the same as his offensive system... a one trick pony.

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11-30-2010, 07:07 PM
  #43
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It would be pointless to bench Doughty and could seriously damage the team. It's not like he's happy that the Kings are losing.

Benching professional athletes is never a good sign. Frolov is a perfect example, it doesn't do any good and can do a lot of damage to the team and player. They are losing as a team and they win as a team, no reason to single out a single player.

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11-30-2010, 07:08 PM
  #44
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It would be pointless to bench Doughty and could seriously damage the team. It's not like he's happy that the Kings are losing.

Benching professional athletes is never a good sign. Frolov is a perfect example, it doesn't do any good and can do a lot of damage to the team and player. They are losing as a team and they win as a team, no reason to single out a single player.
Did wonders for Stamkos.

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11-30-2010, 07:10 PM
  #45
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Did wonders for Stamkos.
From his rookie season? He played 82 games last year and all 24 this year.

Did you hurt your arm with that stretch?

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11-30-2010, 07:13 PM
  #46
damacles1156
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Did wonders for Stamkos.
It also got the Coach Fired(If I recall correctly), Did you miss that part ? there is no reason on earth that Stamkos should not be on the ice.

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11-30-2010, 07:29 PM
  #47
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From his rookie season? He played 82 games last year and all 24 this year.

Did you hurt your arm with that stretch?
Yes his rookie season. Stamkos played like a rookie his rookie season and not since. Doughty played like a vet his first two seasons and now looks like a rookie. Problem? It would hurt if I had midget arms.

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It also got the Coach Fired(If I recall correctly), Did you miss that part ? there is no reason on earth that Stamkos should not be on the ice.
Melrose should have never been coaching in the first place this time around.

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11-30-2010, 07:52 PM
  #48
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Anybody else think they are keeping Schenn off the ice till the team gets out of this slump as to not hurt his confidence?

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11-30-2010, 07:55 PM
  #49
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Yes his rookie season. Stamkos played like a rookie his rookie season and not since. Doughty played like a vet his first two seasons and now looks like a rookie. Problem? It would hurt if I had midget arms.



Melrose should have never been coaching in the first place this time around.
Regardless he was fired a couple games later (Again If I recall correctly). I bet that had a lot to do with it. So Stamkos was playing like a rookie( Imagine that he was a rookie)....

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11-30-2010, 10:11 PM
  #50
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Yes his rookie season. Stamkos played like a rookie his rookie season and not since. Doughty played like a vet his first two seasons and now looks like a rookie.
... But this isn't accurate. Doughty doesn't look like a rookie, he looks like a guy who's being considered a top threat by opposing teams - which wasn't the case before. He's receiving more checking attention than ever, and his room with which to operate is smaller than ever. He also looks like a guy who's probably not 100%, but is in the lineup because the team needs him there.

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