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Old
11-29-2010, 05:54 PM
  #101
Bylsmagic
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Steigy must stop referring to Bylsmagic.
Pfft.

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11-29-2010, 06:30 PM
  #102
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Dude, do you really have to be so condescending in your replies?

Don't get me wrong -- for the most part I like reading what you say, because you seem to know your stuff. But the way you say it makes it difficult to even discuss things with you.

You don't just make points and counter-points in a civilized debate, you ridicule and insult people who don't share your view point, and talk down to them like they're children.

You're better than that. Your posts are informative, you don't need to constantly toss in a "oh my God, you are so STUPID" type line in each and every reply of yours.
No you're right. It's something I've always had even from the time I was a kid and when I get agitated it comes out. It's my fault and nobody else's.

It just feels condescending in a sense (even if it's not directed towards me) when I have something unverifiable thrown out there as fact. "Firing the coach = better Geno" Show me stats, show me something I can hang my hat on rather than just claim A=B because you don't like B's face.

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11-29-2010, 07:43 PM
  #103
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I never said anything as a 'fact'. I am saying that we need to get to the bottom of why Geno isn't Geno anymore. We need to do everything possible to fix it BEFORE the idea of trading Geno starts to surface within the organization. We certainly can't afford too many seasons where Geno's under a point per game.

I don't KNOW if it's Bylsma. We may never know. But Malkin's more important to this organization than Byslma is, so if it ever got to that point, then the coach needs to be sacrificed.

No need to verify said statement.

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Old
11-29-2010, 07:46 PM
  #104
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Borderline NHL? The only reason Comrie's in the NHL to begin with is that the Pens were the only team willing to sign him - at minimum wage - 2 weeks before camp.

Again, if you have trouble with reading comprehension, I'm sure there are some courses you could take. Speed doesn't necessarily equal good, but it does mean BETTER, especially when you compare him to a guy that his literally ZERO tangibles and intangibles. Oh that's right, he had one season of 20 goals in the last seven years.

And since you bring up the third line: look at what a pain in the ass they are to play against. Look at the penalties they draw and how little time teams spend in our zone and how they can wear defenses down who have to spend time chasing. You think all these things combined don't help win hockey games more than a Mike Comrie goal every 4 or 5 games? Put Comrie in Conner's place on that line, and if you think it becomes BETTER, than I stand by the fact that you know nothing.
How do you know if anyone else offered Comrie a contract? Not saying every team was knocking on the door for him but I'm sure more teams were interested. Perhaps he wanted to wait it out in hopes that a good team offered him a contract so he didn't have to play for someone like Florida. His injury past most likely was a huge factor too.

I have nothing else to say about Conner anyways. Just get back to me in a few months and let me know where he's at.....

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11-29-2010, 09:01 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I never said anything as a 'fact'. I am saying that we need to get to the bottom of why Geno isn't Geno anymore. We need to do everything possible to fix it BEFORE the idea of trading Geno starts to surface within the organization. We certainly can't afford too many seasons where Geno's under a point per game.

I don't KNOW if it's Bylsma. We may never know. But Malkin's more important to this organization than Byslma is, so if it ever got to that point, then the coach needs to be sacrificed.

No need to verify said statement.
I don't think that most people in general disagree with you. Malkin is the Penguins' second most important player by a good bit and it's frustrating to see him not playing as well as everyone knows he can.

I just think that he is clearly playing through an injury right now and Bylsma really doesn't have a lot to work with. When the best anyone can say is put Asham back on his wing we're really grasping at straws.

Pending the results of the imminent Staal and Malkin experiment, the next offseason will undoubtedly be geared toward getting Malkin someone to play with. Hopefully Tangradi is ready to step up with Malkin next year as well. As long as the team is playing well, Shero will hold onto Bylsma and try bringing in someone for Malkin to play with.

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11-30-2010, 06:37 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I don't KNOW if it's Bylsma. We may never know. But Malkin's more important to this organization than Byslma is, so if it ever got to that point, then the coach needs to be sacrificed.

No need to verify said statement.
So throw away what maybe a very young and very promising coach because Malkin isn't playing well right now? Here's my "hunch" that Geno's poor play isn't due to Dan Bylsma: The rest of the team including both goaltenders are playing very, very well (with a possible exception of Alex Goligoski) under Dan Bylsma.

Anything wrong with Malkin right now is not external and that's good news, IMO, because that means that it's on him to figure it out and I believe he will.

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11-30-2010, 06:43 AM
  #107
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How do you know if anyone else offered Comrie a contract? Not saying every team was knocking on the door for him but I'm sure more teams were interested. Perhaps he wanted to wait it out in hopes that a good team offered him a contract so he didn't have to play for someone like Florida. His injury past most likely was a huge factor too.

I have nothing else to say about Conner anyways. Just get back to me in a few months and let me know where he's at.....
I'll just chime in with saying I haven't completely closed the door on Comrie. He is having injury problems right now and we haven't yet seen him at 100% for much of a stretch. He definitely has skilled hands and I have seen him show this season that he knows what to do with the puck. We'll see though. The good news is that Pascal Dupuis and Chris Kunitz play their balls off to make up for being a bit skill deficient and I've really had little to complain about with those two being on Crosby's line this year.


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Old
11-30-2010, 06:59 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Roberts View Post
Bylsma's talents and flaws are highly debatable for the most part, except this: Bylsma does not know how to utilize Evgeni Malkin. To me, that's a huge negative.

Overall, I think the team could do worse than Bylsma. At the same time, if they fired Bylsma tomorrow and hired ColePens on Wednesday, I'd throw a kegger.
Are you serious right now? You want Bylsma fired? We're 9-0-1 in our last 10 and everyone except Geno (and maybe Gogo) is playing amazing and you want Bylsma fired?

Let's just say what this actually is: The Geno fans out there don't want to admit that Malkin's failings this season are internal.

I'm sorry that Malkin doesn't get to enjoy Crosby's magical power line with Dupuis and Kunitz. I know how much you wanted Malkin to be our team's leading scorer this year with all your "Scoring is cyclical, Malkin will surge and Crosby will falter this year"-talk all summer long, but don't blame it on Bylsma. In fact, it's actually good that Malkin's scoring woes are mostly internal issues! That means he can't be so easily put off his game by forces out of his control.

Malkin will get it going eventually here. He is dealing with an injury, and yeah, he is dealing with not having very good or consistent linemates but if he was his old self, it wouldn't matter who you stuck him out there with, he'd still be challenging for the league lead.

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11-30-2010, 07:45 AM
  #109
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Are you serious right now? You want Bylsma fired? We're 9-0-1 in our last 10 and everyone except Geno (and maybe Gogo) is playing amazing and you want Bylsma fired?
Are YOU serious? The results are amazing right now (ie. the W's), beating one likely contender (Vancouver) during this stretch, but that certainly doesn't mean that our hockey is amazing overall or that our forwards in general are playing 'great'.
We are winning tight games with an unreal (unsustainably great) PK, an unreal Crosby (won't say unsustainable because it is him, but then again he is at 2 points per game over the past 13 and that isn't going to hold unless he is to top 150 points....), an unreal Letang (should we really assume that he is a 70+ points player all of a sudden? Maybe not....) and very, very good goal tending and overall defense. It is a hot streak.

Our PP is mediocre at best still, and the slightest dip in the PK or goaltending means that most every game goes down to the last second/OT. Fair enough, we should be happy while we're winning, but we're 6-6-2 against teams currently in a playoff spot and 10-2-0 against the rest. That's not just a coincidence and when it matters the also-rans of this league are not the ones we're going to have to contend with. With this team, I have to admit that the regular season for me is just practise/foreplay before the real thing.

Our offensive game is ALL Crosby. Malkin's line does ZIP and we're happy with the third line because it has zone time and generally play opposition evenly with two guys who were AHL'ers last season + Kennedy. They do well for what can be expected, sure, but that doesn't mean they dominate and their plus/minus shows that if nothing else.

This is not to say that there's even an argument for firing Bylsma right now, of course not with the streak we're on, with how early it is, with Staal not having returned etc., but that isn't the same as saying that he is a great coach and sure thing or that the it isn't a major issue that Malkin went from Art Ross/Conn Smythe to being bandied around, having no fixed line or position and totally losing confidence. Without an effective Malkin we can be as good as we want everywhere else - we aren't winning anything.

And about the results.... The roster we have should be among the top teams in the NHL irrespective of who is behind our bench. What matter is if our coach seems likely to (still) get us to the last steps in the playoffs. I doubt that, but that's all for the future to tell us.

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Old
11-30-2010, 09:49 AM
  #110
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I'll just chime in with saying I haven't completely closed the door on Comrie. He is having injury problems right now and we haven't yet seen him at 100% for much of a stretch. He definitely has skilled hands and I have seen him show this season that he knows what to do with the puck. We'll see though.
I agree but we probably won't see cause unless the injuries really pile up I don't expect to see Comrie on the 2nd line again. The main problem is that there's not much of a reason for Shero to go out and trade away another prospect or pick at the deadline. They obviously can't afford a real decent winger and Bylsma has shown that it's pointless to get guys like Poni or Comrie even though they have more talent to be on a top line than anyone else they have. Malkin is just going to have to pray that they find one of Bylsma's kind of guys (an underdog who is fast and hussles) that can stick and play respectable with Malkin. Sad but that's the best we/he can hope for as of now.

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11-30-2010, 10:25 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Are YOU serious? The results are amazing right now (ie. the W's), beating one likely contender (Vancouver) during this stretch, but that certainly doesn't mean that our hockey is amazing overall or that our forwards in general are playing 'great'.
We are winning tight games with an unreal (unsustainably great) PK, an unreal Crosby (won't say unsustainable because it is him, but then again he is at 2 points per game over the past 13 and that isn't going to hold unless he is to top 150 points....), an unreal Letang (should we really assume that he is a 70+ points player all of a sudden? Maybe not....) and very, very good goal tending and overall defense. It is a hot streak.

Our PP is mediocre at best still, and the slightest dip in the PK or goaltending means that most every game goes down to the last second/OT. Fair enough, we should be happy while we're winning, but we're 6-6-2 against teams currently in a playoff spot and 10-2-0 against the rest. That's not just a coincidence and when it matters the also-rans of this league are not the ones we're going to have to contend with. With this team, I have to admit that the regular season for me is just practise/foreplay before the real thing.

Our offensive game is ALL Crosby. Malkin's line does ZIP and we're happy with the third line because it has zone time and generally play opposition evenly with two guys who were AHL'ers last season + Kennedy. They do well for what can be expected, sure, but that doesn't mean they dominate and their plus/minus shows that if nothing else.

This is not to say that there's even an argument for firing Bylsma right now, of course not with the streak we're on, with how early it is, with Staal not having returned etc., but that isn't the same as saying that he is a great coach and sure thing or that the it isn't a major issue that Malkin went from Art Ross/Conn Smythe to being bandied around, having no fixed line or position and totally losing confidence. Without an effective Malkin we can be as good as we want everywhere else - we aren't winning anything.

And about the results.... The roster we have should be among the top teams in the NHL irrespective of who is behind our bench. What matter is if our coach seems likely to (still) get us to the last steps in the playoffs. I doubt that, but that's all for the future to tell us.
That's right, we're 9-0-1 and Sid is scoring 2 points per game. Is that sustainable for the rest of the season? Of course not but how can you sit there and say Bylsma is responsible for pretty much the one single thing that's wrong with our team and not give him credit for the other 99% of things that are going well.

Also, yes we're winning a lot of tight games but last time I checked that's they way it goes in the NHL. We're the Pittsburgh Penguins not the Harlem Globe Trotters.

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Old
11-30-2010, 11:44 AM
  #112
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It's hard not to be condescending when people post stupid tirades, that's for sure.

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11-30-2010, 11:48 AM
  #113
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Are YOU serious? The results are amazing right now (ie. the W's),
Nobody ever goes in a business meeting "yes, but only the results are great!"

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11-30-2010, 01:45 PM
  #114
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i just hope when Staal is back, he and malkin (i dont care who is center) play together. I hope they find a groove, and put up numbers and it resurrects Geno. I have high hopes for Staal this year.

With the way lines 1 and 3 are rolling right now, staal on the second is a nice luxury. And then Talbot to the 4th makes a Rupp Talbot Asham line pretty strong.

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11-30-2010, 03:31 PM
  #115
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To me, one of the important marks, in any sport, is how a team plays on the road. And we have one of the best road records in the league. I think preparation is a big part of a road record.

As for our home record, Bob Grove was talking about it during post game show. Mentioning stats from other teams breaking in a new arena. There seems to be a transition period for the home team in adjusting. I think we are seeing evidence of that. Overcoming a terrible start at Consol, to (hopefully) making it a "home ice" advantage.

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11-30-2010, 04:01 PM
  #116
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So nobody believes that Crosby is currently masking some of our deficiencies as a team? He's playing at an insane level right now.

Look, it's about the process. We might be peaking right now, in November! If we were losing 7 in a row right now, there would still be some people saying "relax, they'll get better. They're better than this." Well, it's the same thing in reverse. They're NOT as good as their current streak. They're due to slump at some point. They do have warts, and hopefully Shero knows this.

I hear all this talk today about how "defense wins championships", yada yada yada. Yeah, well not in November they don't. And this franchise has always won with offense, so forgive me for being skeptical.

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11-30-2010, 04:11 PM
  #117
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Well I do think that Bylsma recognizes that we are lacking in offense (overall). That is one of the reasons he keeps preaching puck possession. His 70/30 goal of possession time. The longer we have the puck, the better (obviously). As we lack finishers to go with your top centers. We don't have finishers, but he is making due, for the most part, with using our grinders to get the result. Preaching hitting/wearing down the defense. Keeping the puck. Preaching to the dmen to go north south. Get the puck out of our zone ASAP. (We are leading the league in hitting, I believe. And have to be one of the top teams, if not the best in points by dmen.)

And I know that DB receives heat for Malkin's "regression". I would have to think he gets some credit for the emergence of Kris Letang.

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11-30-2010, 04:25 PM
  #118
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Well I do think that Bylsma recognizes that we are lacking in offense (overall). That is one of the reasons he keeps preaching puck possession. His 70/30 goal of possession time. The longer we have the puck, the better (obviously). As we lack finishers to go with your top centers. We don't have finishers, but he is making due, for the most part, with using our grinders to get the result. Preaching hitting/wearing down the defense. Keeping the puck. Preaching to the dmen to go north south. Get the puck out of our zone ASAP. (We are leading the league in hitting, I believe. And have to be one of the top teams, if not the best in points by dmen.)

And I know that DB receives heat for Malkin's "regression". I would have to think he gets some credit for the emergence of Kris Letang.
That can't be.

When players progress, it's only due to the strength of their will. When they regress, it's exclusively the fault of the coach.

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11-30-2010, 09:14 PM
  #119
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And I know that DB receives heat for Malkin's "regression". I would have to think he gets some credit for the emergence of Kris Letang.
Oh I agree td. He does deserve some praise for not only Letang's emergence but also the play of Letestu, Conner, Dupuis, Talbot's bounce-back, et al.

But in the end, we NEED Geno more than those other guys. He's a franchise player, and the more Sid scores the more important Geno returning to form becomes.

Because the second half will be a test for Sid. Defenses will definitely change things up, look at tapes, maybe we may see the old-school re-emergence of 'me and my shadow', Esa Tikkanen-style. When a team is a one-trick pony, no matter how much of a stud said pony is, the team becomes so much easier to contend with.

And it's not all on the coach, obviously. But the bottom line is we need Geno to play like Geno, or else we're not so much contenders for the Cup as we'd be pretenders.

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11-30-2010, 09:34 PM
  #120
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That's right, we're 9-0-1 and Sid is scoring 2 points per game. Is that sustainable for the rest of the season? Of course not but how can you sit there and say Bylsma is responsible for pretty much the one single thing that's wrong with our team and not give him credit for the other 99% of things that are going well.
That's not what I am doing at all. I just refuse to say "win = we're playing well and Bylsma is doing great" or "lose = we're playing bad and Bylsma is lousy".

My contention is that when reasonably healthy we should be an upper tier/top Eastern conference team no matter which present NHL coach is behind our bench, because compared to the competition in general, we simply have too much quality on our roster not to be. That's also the reason Vegas had us a top three favourite to win the cup prior to the season, which is besides the point, but hey...
Our present position in the standings is thus, IMO, not a real argument for or against Bylsma being a good or bad coach, or just a run of the mill coach. It is however a tremendous argument against firing him, no doubt.

Anyway, I wonder what you'll say about the coaching qualities of a guy like Bruce Boudreau? Going by your logic, scrutiny or criticism of Boudreau should be considered beyond the pale with how many hockey games they're winning. For a team with legit aspirations to win a cup, I sure don't think so.

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Also, yes we're winning a lot of tight games but last time I checked that's they way it goes in the NHL. We're the Pittsburgh Penguins not the Harlem Globe Trotters.
I am just saying that the kind of hockey you see winning us games right now isn't likely to win us consecutive playoff series in the spring, nor consistently beat the quality teams in this league. Which to me is what matters in evaluating Bylsma.

I am however as happy as everyone else that that the kind of D and penalty killing we have now will guarantee that we're always at least in games if our goal tending is just tolerable. If that is down to Bylsma or Shero though... hard to say.

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11-30-2010, 10:12 PM
  #121
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I think there has to be a miscommunication somewhere in this thread. All we have to do is ask ourselves what is causing this streak? It's all Sid and Fleury (HM to Letang). Those two upped their game to a whole new level.

What Tender is saying is that we aren't winning games all due to coaching. It's okay to admit that. This is like people falling in love w/ MT during stretches where our talent would take over.

Eventually we will lose a couple games and people will be whining about the defensive zone and wonder why there are so many breakdowns. The powerplay will fall below 15% again and we will keep questioning.

I hate that we can't just discuss the topic. Every time we win a game doesn't mean it was well-coached. It doesn't mean we were poorly coached when we lose either. There just has to be some line drawn when the discussion occurs. Too many people defend far left or far right too much.

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11-30-2010, 10:20 PM
  #122
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Exactly.

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12-01-2010, 06:13 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I think there has to be a miscommunication somewhere in this thread. All we have to do is ask ourselves what is causing this streak? It's all Sid and Fleury (HM to Letang). Those two upped their game to a whole new level.

What Tender is saying is that we aren't winning games all due to coaching. It's okay to admit that. This is like people falling in love w/ MT during stretches where our talent would take over.

Eventually we will lose a couple games and people will be whining about the defensive zone and wonder why there are so many breakdowns. The powerplay will fall below 15% again and we will keep questioning.

I hate that we can't just discuss the topic. Every time we win a game doesn't mean it was well-coached. It doesn't mean we were poorly coached when we lose either. There just has to be some line drawn when the discussion occurs. Too many people defend far left or far right too much.
You say that, but your argument is that we are only winning games left and right because of Crosby, Fleury and Letang. I mean, are you surprised that Crosby is winning us games? Right now Malkin is slumping, so he's not getting the job done, but those two are basically the two players who win games for the Penguins (and Fleury when he is playing well). I don't think we're going to expect Dupuis, Kunitz, Kennedy, Conner, Rupp, Goligoski, Martin or Michalek to be winning games for us. The way the team is constructed has nothing to do with Bylsma. No matter what coach we have, we're going to be winning games based on what Crosby, Malkin and Fleury do.

I personally believe that the losing streak was almost entirely on Fleury's hands. How could you not? I also believe Bylsma is a good coach. Do I think if he were coaching a team like Phoenix he would be able to do what Tippet did? Probably not. But his approach is very well-suited to the needs of the Pittsburgh Penguins and the rest Crosby, Fleury and Malkin can take care of (because that's their job). The only thing I truly have a problem with when it comes to coaching is the power play.

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12-01-2010, 08:38 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
You say that, but your argument is that we are only winning games left and right because of Crosby, Fleury and Letang. I mean, are you surprised that Crosby is winning us games? Right now Malkin is slumping, so he's not getting the job done, but those two are basically the two players who win games for the Penguins (and Fleury when he is playing well). I don't think we're going to expect Dupuis, Kunitz, Kennedy, Conner, Rupp, Goligoski, Martin or Michalek to be winning games for us. The way the team is constructed has nothing to do with Bylsma. No matter what coach we have, we're going to be winning games based on what Crosby, Malkin and Fleury do.

I personally believe that the losing streak was almost entirely on Fleury's hands. How could you not? I also believe Bylsma is a good coach. Do I think if he were coaching a team like Phoenix he would be able to do what Tippet did? Probably not. But his approach is very well-suited to the needs of the Pittsburgh Penguins and the rest Crosby, Fleury and Malkin can take care of (because that's their job). The only thing I truly have a problem with when it comes to coaching is the power play.

That might be well and good for the regular season,but postseason games are won with skill, coaching, and a few breaks here and there.

Trust me, I'm not saying Bylsma can't bring back his magic for the playoffs, but it does scare me he was out-coached in Montreal. We made no adjustments to what we wanted to do.

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12-01-2010, 10:12 AM
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HandshakeLine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
That might be well and good for the regular season,but postseason games are won with skill, coaching, and a few breaks here and there.

Trust me, I'm not saying Bylsma can't bring back his magic for the playoffs, but it does scare me he was out-coached in Montreal. We made no adjustments to what we wanted to do.
Everybody gets outcoached sometime, Cole, and often by more inconsistent coaches or hot teams. Bowman, Babcock, et al. have dropped their share of entirely winable series. Somehow, they're not considered horrible coaches, and YOU would most certainly welcome them on our bench if given the opportunity. Bylsma has a fraction of the games they do under their belt.

Fans expect perfection. Fan are also notoriously poor judges of what is possible and how much effect any one player, coach, scout or whatever has. How much coaching can solve a hot goaltender, or fix a player's missed execution on the ice is up for debate, but you and I both know that these things are much more mutually-exclusive than you're giving them credit for.

I'm not saying "don't talk about the coaching," because that's equally stupid. But perspective is necessary, and that's something in rare supply on this board these days. You can't write off Bylsma's success with Crosby and Malkin, while ignoring Babcock's success with Detroit's well stocked roster, or Bowman's success with ridiculously deep rosters. It's bad logic at best and dishonest at worst.

Now, as to your previous comment about how coaching roles have changed, I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that the quality of play in the 70's was anywhere near as bad as it was in the 80's and 90's. The fact remains that Bowman led a legendarily awesome Habs team to success and heavily benefited from it. Would Bowman have been a great coach without leading one of the most ridiculously stacked franchises in history? Probably. Would he have had the same level of success if he was coaching the early 2000's Penguins? I think it's fair to argue "probably not". There's very finite limits to coaching, as much as fans don't want to admit it, since it muddies the waters up on what should be a nice, clean rant.

Coaching expectations may be different in an age of digital video, fantasy hockey, and expanded parity, but the ability of the coach to affect on-ice events remain the same, outside of Bylsma strapping on the skates to be our version of Reggie Dunlop.

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