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Old
05-26-2010, 01:48 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Chicago won the lottery and got the obvious choice in Kane. Philly had a choice between JVR and Kyle Turris. They made the right choice!
Even if they got the 1st pick they were taking JVR.

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05-26-2010, 02:24 PM
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Clarke traded for the rights to negociate with Roenick did he not? Holmgren wasn't the first with Scotty and Kimmo.

edit:
The 31-year-old center agreed in principle to the deal after his old team, the Phoenix Coyotes, gave Philadelphia permission to discuss a contract, Flyers general manager Bob Clarke said Friday.

The Coyotes will receive a compensatory second-round draft pick.


Last edited by Viller: 05-26-2010 at 02:40 PM.
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05-26-2010, 02:33 PM
  #28
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Does anyone else feel 100% better that we made it this far, knowing now that one of those Pronger 1st rounders we gave up is now a 29th or 30th overall pick instead of a 13-14th if we lost that shootout?
Heck yeah! If we lost that shootout it would have been the 10th pick. It's crazy to think we were close to a bottom 10 finish. It feels so long ago.

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05-26-2010, 02:34 PM
  #29
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True and now it's closer to where our 2nd rounder(which we don't have) would have been than our first rounder. It's not so bad when you think about not having a #30 pick and a #60 pick instead of a #10 and #40.
Yep.

I mean, giving up 2 late 1sts, a good (though not world-beating) prospect in Sbisa, and an overpaid winger in Lupul for one of the generational talents playing in the NHL is increasingly looking more and more like a decent deal.

Probably still strictly a failure if we don't win a Cup in the next few years, but playoff Pronger has been such a revelation, if we make the right moves (iffy), we'll contend for at least the next 3 years.

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05-26-2010, 02:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Despite the fact that you did a wonderful job summarizing everything, I have a hard time not discounting people that spell Lupul as Lupol. Just a huge pet peeve of mine.
Never mind Sbisa...

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05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
  #31
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Never mind Sbisa...

I mentioned this as well.

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Old
05-26-2010, 03:04 PM
  #32
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The difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viller View Post
Clarke traded for the rights to negociate with Roenick did he not? Holmgren wasn't the first with Scotty and Kimmo.

edit:
The 31-year-old center agreed in principle to the deal after his old team, the Phoenix Coyotes, gave Philadelphia permission to discuss a contract, Flyers general manager Bob Clarke said Friday.

The Coyotes will receive a compensatory second-round draft pick.
Paul Holmgren traded a first round draft pick for pending UFA's before they hit the free agent market, getting exclusive rights to negotiate with them. Bob Clarke made a trade for Jeremy Roenick, but that deal would only go through if Clarke was able to agree to a contract with Roenick (condition within the trade) - which has been done many times. What Homer did was trade for a pending UFA before they hit the market, this has been done numerous times since, but not before.

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12-01-2010, 01:31 PM
  #33
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Thought I would update this thread with the updated moves:
- Rights to Dan Hamhuis, Ryan Parent + late round pick for Pitts 3rd round in 2011
- Andrej Meszaros for 2nd round pick in 2011
- Matt Walker + 2011 4th rounder for Simon Gagne
- Signed Sean Odonnell to complete the 5-6 pairing with Meszaros. Signed Sergei Bobrovsky and brought him over. Signed Zherdev to replace Simon Gagne - 2M instead of 5M. Signed Jody Shelley to replace Cote.

NOTEWORTHY: Jeff Carter, Claude Giroux, Mike Richards, Chris Pronger are all signed long term for below market contracts.

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Old
12-01-2010, 02:27 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Thought I would update this thread with the updated moves:
- Rights to Dan Hamhuis, Ryan Parent + late round pick for Pitts 3rd round in 2011
- Andrej Meszaros for 2nd round pick in 2011
- Matt Walker + 2011 4th rounder for Simon Gagne
- Signed Sean Odonnell to complete the 5-6 pairing with Meszaros. Signed Sergei Bobrovsky and brought him over. Signed Zherdev to replace Simon Gagne - 2M instead of 5M. Signed Jody Shelley to replace Cote.

NOTEWORTHY: Jeff Carter, Claude Giroux, Mike Richards, Chris Pronger are all signed long term for below market contracts.
Good job, thanks... and after a quick review I have not uncovered any names misspelled; a few people will be elated with that.



Seriously, to me the proof is in the pudding... and we cannot predict with any certainty the future. The result of the change in management has netted the Flyers the following:

* Purging of deadwood in a floundering team.

* A quick one season progression from worst team in the NHL to a Conference Championship contender.

* Two visits to the Eastern Conference Championship Series.

* One trip to a Stanley Cup Finals which fell two games short of a Cup.

* Main core players locked up long-term during the period and/or going forward.

* Numerous former captains and/or team leaders obtained.

* Solid three defense pairings evolved to create arguably the best eight in NHL.

* Solid team down middle with depth on roster.

* Goaltending future upgraded and goalie made acquisitions capable enough to take well into postseason.

* Put in a possible position where only support players are required over the next few seasons with core set.

* Set in place replacements for aging Defensive players with Coburn, Carle and Meszaros acquired.

* Replaced departing wingers with ones with high upside (such as Leino).

* Use free agency well to supplement the home grown players.

* Traded well where progression has resulted in an upgrade. (Eminger, Lupul etc.)

* Found a way to use BOTH draft, Free Agency and trades to develop maintain contending team.

* Yada Yada Yada

... I would like to hear where Homer can be taken to task for the RESULTS he has had and the current makeup of this roster... without projecting into a future that we cannot know. The future can be adjusted and altered to take into account the Cap and state of the League. Based on results, the current management has done an excellent job IMO.

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12-01-2010, 03:03 PM
  #35
phillyfanatic
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Good job, thanks... and after a quick review I have not uncovered any names misspelled; a few people will be elated with that.



Seriously, to me the proof is in the pudding... and we cannot predict with any certainty the future. The result of the change in management has netted the Flyers the following:

* Purging of deadwood in a floundering team.

* A quick one season progression from worst team in the NHL to a Conference Championship contender.

* Two visits to the Eastern Conference Championship Series.

* One trip to a Stanley Cup Finals which fell two games short of a Cup.

* Main core players locked up long-term during the period and/or going forward.

* Numerous former captains and/or team leaders obtained.

* Solid three defense pairings evolved to create arguably the best eight in NHL.

* Solid team down middle with depth on roster.

* Goaltending future upgraded and goalie made acquisitions capable enough to take well into postseason.

* Put in a possible position where only support players are required over the next few seasons with core set.

* Set in place replacements for aging Defensive players with Coburn, Carle and Meszaros acquired.

* Replaced departing wingers with ones with high upside (such as Leino).

* Use free agency well to supplement the home grown players.

* Traded well where progression has resulted in an upgrade. (Eminger, Lupul etc.)

* Found a way to use BOTH draft, Free Agency and trades to develop maintain contending team.

* Yada Yada Yada

... I would like to hear where Homer can be taken to task for the RESULTS he has had and the current makeup of this roster... without projecting into a future that we cannot know. The future can be adjusted and altered to take into account the Cap and state of the League. Based on results, the current management has done an excellent job IMO.
I need not add anything. Excellent.

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Old
12-01-2010, 03:13 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
At the entry draft in 2003, the strongest draft in league history, the Flyers have the 11th and 24th overall pick. They take Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. In 2006 our first round pick is Claude Giroux. We have a strong young team, but after the lockout, we have the worst season in Flyer History finishing last in the NHL.

Holmgren was put in charge October 22nd 2006 replacing a burnt out Bobby Clarke. Hitchcock is fired the same day and replaced with John Stevens. At the trade deadline in February 2007, Holmgren trades Forsberg for Parent, Upshall and a 1st and 3rd rounder, trades Zhitnik to Atlanta for Coburn, trades Calder to Chicago for Kukkonen and a 3rd rounder, trades a 2nd to Buffalo for Martin Biron. We get the 2nd overall pick and draft James Van Riemsdyk. In the summer of 2007 we trade Nashvilles 1st rounder back to them for Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell and quickly lock them up to long term deals – this is the first time a trade is made for the “rights” to soon to be UFA’s. Daniel Briere is signed for 6.5 million per year, he is the top free agent of the year - Gomez and Drury sign in New York for 7.5 million per. This is the first deal in the NHL that is “front loaded” meaning that Briere will make the majority of his money in the first 5 years of his deal and signs for less than market value. At the draft we trade up in the 2nd round to get Kevin Marshall, trade Joni Pitkanen and Geoff Sanderson to Edmonton for Lupol and Jason Smith, trade Eager for Vandermeer and a 3rd rounder for Modry.

At the deadline in 2008, we ship Vandermeer to Calgary for their third round pick and trade Alex Picard and a 2nd round pick to Tampa for Prospal. Some say because Stevens has since been fired he was a bad choice. On the contrary, Stevens was a players coach and was given Terry Murray to help with the nuances of the job - this combination helped the Flyers go from last in the NHL to the conference finals in one year.

In the summer of 08, Prospal is traded for a couple of picks (one of whom is our future goalie in Joacim Eriksson), Umberger is traded for a 1st and 3rd rounder (Sbiza and Bourdon), we trade a 1st rounder to Washington for Steve Eminger and a 3rd, Gauthier and a 2nd rounder are traded to LA for prospects, basically we dump Gauthiers salary and lose a pick. We trade LA prospect + 4th rounder for Andrew Alberts, sign Aaron Asham. During the year we trade Eminger, Downie and a 4th to Tampa for Matt Carle and a 3rd, Randy Jones who cashed in on his playoff performance the year before to get too much money is waived and picked up by LA. Due to Daniel Briere coming back from injury at the deadline, we are forced to cut salary and trade Upshall and a 2nd rounder to Phoenix for Dan Carcillo. The result is we finish in 5th in the East tied with Pittsburgh and lose in the first round in a series many believe could have gone the other way had Philly finished off Pitt in game 6 when they were up 3-0 before the Carcillo fight – Pitt wins the cup that year.

The summer of 2009, we trade an overpaid Lupol, Sbiza, two 1st’s and a 3rd to Anaheim for Chris Pronger. The offseason we sign Blair Betts, Ian Laps, Ray Emery and Brian Boucher and let Mike Knuble, Martin Biron and Nittymaki walk (all of whom wanted too much money). In season we trade OK to Detroit for Ville Leino. The result is we are in the Stanley Cup Finals. So now you have all the facts of every deal made in the Paul Holmgren era. This is how the present day Philadelphia Flyers have been re-built.
I liked your write up Lupul or no loop hole.
I'm not too sure if I'm ready just yet to crown Ericksson (does it count if I purposly misspell a name ) as our future goal tender just yet, but otherwise it's a nice reminder. The other posts help too.

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Old
12-01-2010, 03:37 PM
  #37
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... I would like to hear where Homer can be taken to task for the RESULTS he has had and the current makeup of this roster... without projecting into a future that we cannot know. The future can be adjusted and altered to take into account the Cap and state of the League. Based on results, the current management has done an excellent job IMO.
I don't think you can argue that.

In almost every Homer GM debate I mention that the debate rages on because there is a fundamental difference of opinion. You've touched on one of those opinions; the results based opinion. Others (such as myself), do not believe that the end always justify the means, and seek improvement where improvement can be made. It's very rare someone of one opinion will switch to the other, and neither side is more right than the other.

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12-01-2010, 03:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I don't think you can argue that.

In almost every Homer GM debate I mention that the debate rages on because there is a fundamental difference of opinion. You've touched on one of those opinions; the results based opinion. Others (such as myself), do not believe that the end always justify the means, and seek improvement where improvement can be made. It's very rare someone of one opinion will switch to the other, and neither side is more right than the other.
I honestly have been a little harsh on you without trying to be in the other post. So, sorry for that. But - what I think you are missing is, Homer takes lots of chances. He makes trades that we all say - holy ****. Just because he makes mistakes, you guys torch him for those. I just feel if you look at the entire body of work, it speaks for itself. He has done a masterful job and I for one applaud him for it. And I also take offense to those that ridicule him when he is so successful.

Chicago just won the Stanley Cup and their GM made some HORRIBLE moves. So I don't think it is results only. Hossa, Huet, Campbell are the reason that dynasty has been dismantled. Homer has a team in place that will be a contended for years.

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12-01-2010, 04:07 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I honestly have been a little harsh on you without trying to be in the other post. So, sorry for that. But - what I think you are missing is, Homer takes lots of chances. He makes trades that we all say - holy ****. Just because he makes mistakes, you guys torch him for those. I just feel if you look at the entire body of work, it speaks for itself. He has done a masterful job and I for one applaud him for it. And I also take offense to those that ridicule him when he is so successful.

Chicago just won the Stanley Cup and their GM made some HORRIBLE moves. So I don't think it is results only. Hossa, Huet, Campbell are the reason that dynasty has been dismantled. Homer has a team in place that will be a contended for years.
A masterful job, yet we can't gripe on single trades and have to take a step back and look at everything as a whole...So essentially many wrongs that are mixed in, make a right?

A body of work is made up of every single trade, bad trades add to the whole. Can't we all just agree on "he couldve done better, couldve done worse". I don't get the logic behind saying hes "masterful" by ignoring many things, as opposed to just acknowledging the job he did. There's no real reason to jump off either deep end. We're a successful team currently, and he's made a decent amount of ****ups along the way that may or may not bite us in the ass. For the time being, we're doing great.

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12-01-2010, 04:19 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I don't think you can argue that.

In almost every Homer GM debate I mention that the debate rages on because there is a fundamental difference of opinion. You've touched on one of those opinions; the results based opinion. Others (such as myself), do not believe that the end always justify the means, and seek improvement where improvement can be made. It's very rare someone of one opinion will switch to the other, and neither side is more right than the other.
I would be so bold to suggest that five straight Cups won by a team and management would still leave much room for things that could have been done better. The dynasties of the Canadiens, Islanders and Oilers were not without decisions that were made where going another direction would not have netted a better isolated result... Trading a player that becomes a star for a flash in the pan for an example is a blemish on any GM, and every one has made them I'd guess.

With that in mind, I guess I don't really understand the ends does not justify the means in this case -- speak of the Eagles and I understand totally -- Are you saying that in management it is better to judge a GM on the day to day decisions that are not looked at in the Big Picture?

In my view we are looking at a new and fresh NHL with a whole set of new management rules... one where there is no history in many things (such as the Cap) and every GM is feeling it out without knowing long-term effects.

Fred Shero came into an expanded NHL and inserted assistant coaches, video, watching the Russians, etc. and was thought of as being odd... He had good results but an awkward manner.

Homer has made many mistakes and has been embarrassed by some things he's done... But look at Toronto, the Rangers, Boston, The Habs, Buffalo, etc. in the East over the same period... There has not been many GMs that have had as good a results AND I would say that no GM has had a smooth going in all their management decisions... not even Pittsburgh or Detroit.

Not trying to change your mind, but just curious what means to the end in the Flyers management brings down Homer as a top NHL GM? Sure he had to use tryout layers and move good players due to the Cap -- which GM hasn't moved players they didn't want to? Look at Chicago -- but he has this team poised for Cup runs this year and for a few down the road... Unless his signed core all go belly up, this will be a solid team for a good chunk of the decade; Cap troubles or no Cap. No too many Organizations can say that at this time.

With that I respect your opinion, just not sure I fully understand it. I believe we can and do argue all the decisions... and that is the right thing to do... But we must also acknowledge end results. And I guess until they win a Cup we can say that Homer has failed... I'm just enjoying the ride.

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12-01-2010, 04:32 PM
  #41
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A masterful job, yet we can't gripe on single trades and have to take a step back and look at everything as a whole...So essentially many wrongs that are mixed in, make a right?

A body of work is made up of every single trade, bad trades add to the whole. Can't we all just agree on "he couldve done better, couldve done worse". I don't get the logic behind saying hes "masterful" by ignoring many things, as opposed to just acknowledging the job he did. There's no real reason to jump off either deep end. We're a successful team currently, and he's made a decent amount of ****ups along the way that may or may not bite us in the ass. For the time being, we're doing great.
We can only live in the present and look at the past... and debate the outcome of the future. Based on the last few years Homer has been an outstanding albeit flawed GM... in the future he may prove to be a bust.

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12-01-2010, 04:39 PM
  #42
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Homer is generally a great evaluator of talent. That's why he'll never be a dreg of the league GM that we all love to make fun of.

However, to suggest that he doesn't have the striking ability to mitigate his great moves by doing absolutely mind-numbingly stupid things is just wrong.

The opportunity costs of many of his moves have been very high. This team doesn't have a proven goalie because he can't manage the salary cap and draft picks. Yes, Bob is awesome and I hope that he's our franchise goalie. But he's also a rookie and if he gets burned out at the end of the year we'll be bounced in the first round.

This is the same guy that has shackled himself to Leighton and Boosh for two years. He got **** lucky with Bob but can you imagine this team if he had to start Boosh every game so far? Or if he had to trade one of his few (tradeable) players for a goaltender?

Even supporters of Holmgren have to recognize that he's walked a very fine line these past few seasons. It's worked out so far but he puts himself in a position where the stars really have to align for success. Relying on a backup goalie to stop the last shot in a shootout in the last game of the season is nothing to be proud of. Relying on an undrafted free agent to save the season is not something to be proud of.

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12-01-2010, 05:26 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Even supporters of Holmgren have to recognize that he's walked a very fine line these past few seasons. It's worked out so far but he puts himself in a position where the stars really have to align for success. Relying on a backup goalie to stop the last shot in a shootout in the last game of the season is nothing to be proud of. Relying on an undrafted free agent to save the season is not something to be proud of.
While relying on a back-up to save our season followed by an undrafted FA rookie is not something to be proud of in the least, the team of skaters he built allowed for that to happen.

Holmgren made it so that in a worst case scenario (our start Emery is done for the year), we would not lose our season only because of the amount of talent among our skaters. He purposely followed the Detroit model for this reason.

While you can say that it still nearly cost us the season despite his preparation for a worst case scenario, there were other factors involved in that, not the least of which was John Stevens and the length of time it took for Laviolette to implement his new system.

I don't believe Holmgren has ever walked a fine line. He's made some mistakes, but all GMs do. Nobody can be perfect. That said, Holmgren has built a fantastic team despite a few minor pitfalls and an apparently lackluster "opportunity cost" ratio, which I don't necessarily agree with either.

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12-01-2010, 06:20 PM
  #44
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Homer is generally a great evaluator of talent. That's why he'll never be a dreg of the league GM that we all love to make fun of.

However, to suggest that he doesn't have the striking ability to mitigate his great moves by doing absolutely mind-numbingly stupid things is just wrong.

The opportunity costs of many of his moves have been very high. This team doesn't have a proven goalie because he can't manage the salary cap and draft picks. Yes, Bob is awesome and I hope that he's our franchise goalie. But he's also a rookie and if he gets burned out at the end of the year we'll be bounced in the first round.

This is the same guy that has shackled himself to Leighton and Boosh for two years. He got **** lucky with Bob but can you imagine this team if he had to start Boosh every game so far? Or if he had to trade one of his few (tradeable) players for a goaltender?

Even supporters of Holmgren have to recognize that he's walked a very fine line these past few seasons. It's worked out so far but he puts himself in a position where the stars really have to align for success. Relying on a backup goalie to stop the last shot in a shootout in the last game of the season is nothing to be proud of. Relying on an undrafted free agent to save the season is not something to be proud of.
Points well taken. But there is a trend among some organizations to not earmark large sums of Cap space to goalies. The Flyers have been one that spend their money and Cap in other positions.

Unless you get a Franchise goalie such as Brodeur or Roy goalies do not carry a team to heights for extended periods of time... And long term lock ups of contracts often are regrettable actions.

It is often best to develop a goalie in-house, or revive one... both are affordable and allows Cap space to be spread among other positions.

And I would not say that Bob was a stroke of dumb luck as he was found and signed by Homer's charges... I understand that he was on at least one scouts radar before, and when they rediscovered him they knew that he was possibly the real deal and quietly got him wrapped up. Finding and signing Bobrovski is every bit a monumental thing as other GMs getting other outstanding goalies.

As for fine lines... GMs don't survive very long placing their hope on luck and a balancing act. Homer is not relying on an undrafted FA, as he was looking on him as the future and relying on Leighton and Boosh until injury opened the door for Bob... And who is to say that the two old boys couldn't have again handled the choirs in front of this stacked team with such depth at D?

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12-01-2010, 07:27 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I honestly have been a little harsh on you without trying to be in the other post. So, sorry for that. But - what I think you are missing is, Homer takes lots of chances. He makes trades that we all say - holy ****. Just because he makes mistakes, you guys torch him for those. I just feel if you look at the entire body of work, it speaks for itself. He has done a masterful job and I for one applaud him for it. And I also take offense to those that ridicule him when he is so successful.

Chicago just won the Stanley Cup and their GM made some HORRIBLE moves. So I don't think it is results only. Hossa, Huet, Campbell are the reason that dynasty has been dismantled. Homer has a team in place that will be a contended for years.
I was a bit harsh as well, so my apologies. That said, you (and others) keep saying things like "if you look at the entire body of work", when all I'm trying to convey, is that to me the body of work, doesn't matter at all. How well we are doing, literally has no almost no bearing on how I judge a GM. We're good, I get it. I expected to be good. Some of his mistakes are just so obvious to me, that I have a hard time forgiving it. A GM can make a GREAT move that doesn't translate to wins. By your metric, it could be declared a poor move. Conversely, a terrible move could be masked, and the team continue to win. That doesn't make it ok.

I just get annoyed being labeled a hater and a pessimist because I'm critical of some moves our GM makes. And people act as if I must be upset that we're doing so well, because it must mean I'm wrong. In real life, I'm a complete and total optimist. phillyfanatic, I completely understand why you and others like Homer. For you, the fact that we are so good, is all you need. I just dislike being labeled because I tend to look at things on a more granular level. This isn't some irrational conclusion I'm jumping to. As I've said over and over again. No one is right or wrong. We just think differently, and judge our GMs on different things. I understand your metric. I just wish someone would tell me they understand what I'm saying (despite disagreeing), rather than call me a hater, and insinuate I'm upset that we're playing so well.

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12-01-2010, 07:48 PM
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We can only live in the present and look at the past... and debate the outcome of the future. Based on the last few years Homer has been an outstanding albeit flawed GM... in the future he may prove to be a bust.
Precisely, and the past includes all bad moves made as well. Thus, we analyze them, not sugarcoat.

I think I would agree with DUH, it seems any criticism goes in one ear and out the other. No one is saying we are not thankful where we are at, that doesn't negate glaring moves that literally no fan would agree with. I don't see how being a critical fan necessarily is a negative fan. Interesting though, we condemn other fanbases for trying to paint rosier pictures of their franchises, yet criticism here is relative to questioning a sense of patriotism.

I suppose even the Flyers board needs its equilibrium of Lennon and McCartney...otherwise we'd be far too sappy or depressed.

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12-01-2010, 08:15 PM
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I was a bit harsh as well, so my apologies. That said, you (and others) keep saying things like "if you look at the entire body of work", when all I'm trying to convey, is that to me the body of work, doesn't matter at all. How well we are doing, literally has no almost no bearing on how I judge a GM. We're good, I get it. I expected to be good. Some of his mistakes are just so obvious to me, that I have a hard time forgiving it. A GM can make a GREAT move that doesn't translate to wins. By your metric, it could be declared a poor move. Conversely, a terrible move could be masked, and the team continue to win. That doesn't make it ok.

I just get annoyed being labeled a hater and a pessimist because I'm critical of some moves our GM makes. And people act as if I must be upset that we're doing so well, because it must mean I'm wrong. In real life, I'm a complete and total optimist. phillyfanatic, I completely understand why you and others like Homer. For you, the fact that we are so good, is all you need. I just dislike being labeled because I tend to look at things on a more granular level. This isn't some irrational conclusion I'm jumping to. As I've said over and over again. No one is right or wrong. We just think differently, and judge our GMs on different things. I understand your metric. I just wish someone would tell me they understand what I'm saying (despite disagreeing), rather than call me a hater, and insinuate I'm upset that we're playing so well.
To me it is hard to understand where you are coming from -- not calling you a hater nor saying you are upset the Flyers are playing well -- Looking at a man who has a job to do... given that job by his employers to accomplish the goal... I fail to see how certain things he does well or doesn't do could take away from what he was put in place to do.

Now, the question is whether a GM is hire to win a Cup, or to give an organization an opportunity to win a Cup... Surely if he doesn't put them in a position to win a Cup he is on borrowed time, even if he has won a Cup for them earlier.

If an organizations sees a GM moving in the right direction but still not ready to be a contender, they can stay with him as he builds a team in the way it needs to be built... Conversely if a GM's team is having winning seasons but is not moving in the correct direction and looks to be a team that merely make the postseason, the GM may be axed and the team rebuilt or at least tweaked.

In that way I can say that making mistakes could lead ownership to determine that the team is not headed in the proper direction... that it will never win a Cup. But, is that what Homer has done with some very bad moves? Or is his mistakes the kind that any and every GM makes in his tenure multiple times?

If a GM is making the type mistakes that come with the job, isn't the question then whether the accomplishments are a measure of the GM's job?

What to you makes a GM a good GM? Is it he makes no mistakes? The best way to not make a mistake is to do nothing, or little... To make great gains much risk has to be taken; other GMs are not going to give away prime players for nothing... Signings are sometimes done on a scatter-shot basis where some signing hit dead center while others miss by a large margin.

I suppose a measure of a Gm being a good GM or an average GM may be subjective... and the objective part of it may not matter.

If you held Homer's job in your hand would you can him and bring in another GM? Keep in mind a new broom sweeps clean and in cleaning house much can change... Or would you allow Homer to stay and see how far the team he has built takes us?

If a GM is not a good GM it is best to remove him, is it not?

If it were me, Homer's job would be as safe as could be.

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12-01-2010, 08:25 PM
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Precisely, and the past includes all bad moves made as well. Thus, we analyze them, not sugarcoat.

I think I would agree with DUH, it seems any criticism goes in one ear and out the other. No one is saying we are not thankful where we are at, that doesn't negate glaring moves that literally no fan would agree with. I don't see how being a critical fan necessarily is a negative fan. Interesting though, we condemn other fanbases for trying to paint rosier pictures of their franchises, yet criticism here is relative to questioning a sense of patriotism.

I suppose even the Flyers board needs its equilibrium of Lennon and McCartney...otherwise we'd be far too sappy or depressed.
I guess I'm missing the mark then... I'm in no way saying that we can't criticize Homer and his moves. I'm merely saying that he is a good GM that has accomplished quite a bit is a few years.

I am also arguing those that do actually make Homer seem inept and ridicule him... I feel confident with the position of the team and it makeup... I feel that the team is a lot closer to winning the Cup than they were when we were all thinking they should.

I am arguing against those that feel Homer is lucky and that the Flyers are where they are due to dumb luck.

I am all for calling a spade a spade and pointing out when the emperor has no clothes... but I also believe that credit should be given... and that, damn, the Flyers have won a lot of postseason games and series since that dreadful season they were last... And the core is signed long-term.


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12-01-2010, 08:35 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
To me it is hard to understand where you are coming from -- not calling you a hater nor saying you are upset the Flyers are playing well -- Looking at a man who has a job to do... given that job by his employers to accomplish the goal... I fail to see how certain things he does well or doesn't do could take away from what he was put in place to do.

Now, the question is whether a GM is hire to win a Cup, or to give an organization an opportunity to win a Cup... Surely if he doesn't put them in a position to win a Cup he is on borrowed time, even if he has won a Cup for them earlier.

If an organizations sees a GM moving in the right direction but still not ready to be a contender, they can stay with him as he builds a team in the way it needs to be built... Conversely if a GM's team is having winning seasons but is not moving in the correct direction and looks to be a team that merely make the postseason, the GM may be axed and the team rebuilt or at least tweaked.

In that way I can say that making mistakes could lead ownership to determine that the team is not headed in the proper direction... that it will never win a Cup. But, is that what Homer has done with some very bad moves? Or is his mistakes the kind that any and every GM makes in his tenure multiple times?

If a GM is making the type mistakes that come with the job, isn't the question then whether the accomplishments are a measure of the GM's job?

What to you makes a GM a good GM? Is it he makes no mistakes? The best way to not make a mistake is to do nothing, or little... To make great gains much risk has to be taken; other GMs are not going to give away prime players for nothing... Signings are sometimes done on a scatter-shot basis where some signing hit dead center while others miss by a large margin.

I suppose a measure of a Gm being a good GM or an average GM may be subjective... and the objective part of it may not matter.

If you held Homer's job in your hand would you can him and bring in another GM? Keep in mind a new broom sweeps clean and in cleaning house much can change... Or would you allow Homer to stay and see how far the team he has built takes us?

If a GM is not a good GM it is best to remove him, is it not?

If it were me, Homer's job would be as safe as could be.
A couple things. One thing I want to make clear is I'm not saying Homer is "not a good GM". I feel like that's something people always jump to with me. I'm just saying he has his flaws, and IMO they are very big flaws. He's terrible at asset management. He sees talent and overspends to get it. He's like me buying whatever I want regardless of cost. It's just stupid, and I'm aware of it, but I do it haha. So again, I am not saying Homer is bad. I just don't think he's as flawless as some people make him out to be, because we're such a good team.

To your point about an employer giving his employees a job to do, I'm glad you made this analogy, because I made a similar one in the other thread. Yes, if I'm an employer, I want my employee to complete the project I give him. It is his ultimate goal. However, I want to know how my employee is completing that project. If he could be completing that project AHEAD of time, and UNDER budget, but isn't, I'm going to be upset. That is what I feel is happening with Homer.

Another analogy I've made in the past. If I'm in the market for a new car. And I walk into the dealer, point out the car I want, and get it...good for me right? I have an awesome car. Well, I paid like 5k more than I had to. So yes, I have an awesome car, but I was stupid about how I went and got my car. The end result (awesome car) does not mean I did well for myself.

A team with as much talent as we have, is going to have a VERY hard time keeping it together. Therefore, it's unbelievably important to be overly critical in every dollar you spend. Homer pisses away far too much money. 100k here, 300k there. It adds up quickly. Hell. Jeff Carter's "raise" for the next 10 years is only 270k. A mistake like Matt Walker, could pay for Carter's raise and someone like Powe/Nodl/Carcillo (and perhaps more) for the next 2 years. We had to trade Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo for a couple hundred K in savings. Over and over we see TINY dollar amounts cause issues for us. I nitpick over such OBVIOUS mistakes because the are so easily avoided.

Don't even get me started on Randy Jones.

As for if I was owner, would Homer keep his job? I'd have to say yes. Partly because I'm not familiar enough with what alternatives are available haha. And again, he isn't terrible. I really want to stress that. If I were owner, I'd keep him, and keep my wallet close before he spends my money.

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12-01-2010, 08:44 PM
  #50
DUHockey9
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I am also arguing those that do actually make Homer seem inept and ridicule him... I feel confident with the position of the team and it makeup... I feel that the team is a lot closer to winning the Cup than they were when we were all thinking they should.

I am arguing against those that feel Homer is lucky and is the Flyers are where they are due to dumb luck.
These 2 paragraphs in particular:

Just because I criticize doesn't mean I'm not confident. I'm INCREDIBLY confident. I've said it before, the success of the team has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of Homer. Therefore, my criticism of him, does not have any reflection on how good I think we are, because we are awesome!

I am not arguing he is lucky at all. The only time luck ever comes up (often from Jester and myself) is regarding Bob. It was lucky that he required ZERO adjustment to North American hockey. It wasn't lucky that we signed him. It's merely lucky that he's ready right now, instead of in the AHL where everyone thought he would be.

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