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GM of the year? or Stanley Cup or Bust

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Old
11-30-2010, 08:37 AM
  #76
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No one is saying that Meszaros and O'D are bad, they are miles ahead of most third pairings. But +/- is easier to come by as a good 3rd pairing

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12-01-2010, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Stevens was a great coach though, right?
Absolutely! He was the perfect coach at that time. After Hitchcock, we needed a players coach and Stevens was LOVED by his players. He helped us go from worst in the NHL to a contender the next. He was replaced by a better head coach in Laviolette at the right time who took us to a Stanley Cup Final. Well done Paul Holmgren. Two good moves at the coaching position.

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12-01-2010, 02:01 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Absolutely! He was the perfect coach at that time. After Hitchcock, we needed a players coach and Stevens was LOVED by his players. He helped us go from worst in the NHL to a contender the next. He was replaced by a better head coach in Laviolette at the right time who took us to a Stanley Cup Final. Well done Paul Holmgren. Two good moves at the coaching position.
He was *ing awful... and Holmgren should have fired him at least a year before he finally did.

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12-01-2010, 02:05 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Bob is luck from Holmgren's perspective... he had no intention of Bob playing in the NHL to start the year, and Bob almost certainly would be backstopping that terrible AHL squad if Leighton's back hadn't blown up (of course, if we were getting .900 goaltending and Bob was posting a .930+ in the AHL, he might be here by now...). Certainly gets credit for signing a prospect... but I've always said I love his scouting eye.

What I find remarkable is the inability of some to grasp that some paces are unsustainable (both good and bad). Players have runs of both good and bad luck and it affects their production rates. O'Donnell and Meszaros, for example, have gotten quite lucky this year in when goals are finding their way past the goalies. Carle--who I'm not a huge fan of--has been unlucky defensively, IMO (worst GAON/60 on the team at 2.69), but also quite lucky the other way (3.74 GFON/60). Last year his numbers were 2.15 GAON and 2.90 GFON...

Based on watching him, I wouldn't have suspected Carle was getting burned that badly defensively without looking at the numbers.

And regression to mean is absolutely real, and far too many don't seem to grasp this conceptually.
Wrong again. Bob wasn't planned to play in the NHL "this year" but when he was signed Homer said that Bob and Ericsson are the future goalies. He corrected a problem that was there for 20 years. He gave us future stud goalies. One of those goalies is turning into pure Gold, and from everything I have read - the Flyer scouts not only are "not surprised" but they were very much "expecting" this. He is old enough to play in the NHL and his fundamentals are outstanding and the scouts thought he could play in the league immediately. From day 1 in training camp, he has shown - they were right. Luck - NOT!

Paul Holmgren is the best and most successful GM in hockey. Ray Shero got lucky with Crosby and Malkin. Dale Tallon got lucky with Kane. In Detoit, they have been getting "lucky" out of russia for years. However, years later.....everyone agrees that their scouting in Europe is the reason for the luck (Detroit is the class of the NHL in management, Flyers next). They had Datsyk, Zetterburg and others high on their list when others didn't know their names. That isn't luck, that is good scouting. Homer put Little and others at work in Europe to find good goaltending. They found Bob. That isn't luck. That is good scouting. That is a direct result of good management and therefore, is another feather in Homers cap.

He has made brilliant move after brilliant move. I have said it before and I will say it again. To be a great GM in this league you need to look bad at times. Noboby is going to bat one thousand. However, Homer is batting about .400 with 40 Home Runs. And in NHL GM terms, that is the best in the league. Want to debate it? Bring it haters.

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12-01-2010, 02:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He was *ing awful... and Holmgren should have fired him at least a year before he finally did.
Awful - as in NHL Coach of the year finalist awful? Than yes - I agree.

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12-01-2010, 02:09 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Wrong again. Bob wasn't planned to play in the NHL "this year" but when he was signed Homer said that Bob and Ericsson are the future goalies.
So, Bob, playing this well this year... is pure luck, because Holmgren had no intention of him playing this year. Like I said. What I said had nothing to do with whether Holmgren thought Bob would have an impact in some future season.

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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Awful - as in NHL Coach of the year finalist awful? Than yes - I agree.
Bill Barber WON NHL Coach of the year, and he was a *ing terrible head coach.

What was your point again?

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12-01-2010, 02:11 PM
  #82
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I laugh. Homer hires Stevens who is the hockey news coach of the year. He helped Richards and Carter develop into stars. He brought success. Credit for a good hire? Nope - marked as a bad hire because Stevens is fired years later. Homer replaced him with Lavy. Credit for that one? He took the team to the cup final in his first year. He was exactly what the team needed and is again a great coach. However, in a few years when he is fired (as all coachs eventually are) - this will be another failure for Homer? Pfft.

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12-01-2010, 02:12 PM
  #83
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Have we talked about Homer and the way he handles the salary cap yet?

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12-01-2010, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I laugh. Homer hires Stevens who is the hockey news coach of the year. He helped Richards and Carter develop into stars. He brought success. Credit for a good hire? Nope - marked as a bad hire because Stevens is fired years later. Homer replaced him with Lavy. Credit for that one? He took the team to the cup final in his first year. He was exactly what the team needed and is again a great coach. However, in a few years when he is fired (as all coachs eventually are) - this will be another failure for Homer? Pfft.
I highly doubt that Stevens coaching was the reason that at the time, two highly regarded young players became good.

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12-01-2010, 02:13 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, Bob, playing this well this year... is pure luck, because Holmgren had no intention of him playing this year. Like I said. What I said had nothing to do with whether Holmgren thought Bob would have an impact in some future season.



Bill Barber WON NHL Coach of the year, and he was a *ing terrible head coach.

What was your point again?
Typical - you have no good points, so you just highlight one sentence to make your point. OK Jester, your wrong - but as usual, you think otherwise. Bob was a great signing - NOT LUCK. Stevens was a GREAT hire at the time, almost won coach of the year and was EXACTLY what the team needed at that time. IT was a young team, the core had success with Stevens in the AHL. They immediately responded and had success in the NHL. Great move.

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12-01-2010, 02:14 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He was *ing awful... and Holmgren should have fired him at least a year before he finally did.
Most GMs aren't going to fire a coach that have winning records and lead a team to the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong, Stevens definitely should have gone much earlier since there were obvious major flaws in his coaching, but I don't blame Homer much for waiting so long to get rid of him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Paul Holmgren is the best and most successful GM in hockey. Ray Shero got lucky with Crosby and Malkin. Dale Tallon got lucky with Kane. In Detoit, they have been getting "lucky" out of russia for years. However, years later.....everyone agrees that their scouting in Europe is the reason for the luck (Detroit is the class of the NHL in management, Flyers next). They had Datsyk, Zetterburg and others high on their list when others didn't know their names. That isn't luck, that is good scouting. Homer put Little and others at work in Europe to find good goaltending. They found Bob. That isn't luck. That is good scouting. That is a direct result of good management and therefore, is another feather in Homers cap.

He has made brilliant move after brilliant move. I have said it before and I will say it again. To be a great GM in this league you need to look bad at times. Noboby is going to bat one thousand. However, Homer is batting about .400 with 40 Home Runs. And in NHL GM terms, that is the best in the league. Want to debate it? Bring it haters.
ROFL

Thank you for the laughs. Seriously, I cracked up at all of that. Made my day.

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12-01-2010, 02:15 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I laugh. Homer hires Stevens who is the hockey news coach of the year. He helped Richards and Carter develop into stars. He brought success. Credit for a good hire? Nope - marked as a bad hire because Stevens is fired years later. Homer replaced him with Lavy. Credit for that one? He took the team to the cup final in his first year. He was exactly what the team needed and is again a great coach. However, in a few years when he is fired (as all coachs eventually are) - this will be another failure for Homer? Pfft.
This post is hilariously ignorant... but the bold is fantastic.

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12-01-2010, 02:15 PM
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I highly doubt that Stevens coaching was the reason that at the time, two highly regarded young players became good.
They were struggling under Hitchcock. Many young players struggle in that environment. Homer hired a players coach to get their confidence back and it worked. It helped. Don't agree? Ask Richards and Carter - they would be the first to admit it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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12-01-2010, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This post is hilariously ignorant... but the bold is fantastic.
You are the ignorant one - I see this all the time in your posts. Lavy was fired in Carolina - is he a terrible coach? Was he a bad hire? Or is the cup he helped them win enough to change your mind? What is your point Jester????

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12-01-2010, 02:19 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Typical - you have no good points, so you just highlight one sentence to make your point. OK Jester, your wrong - but as usual, you think otherwise. Bob was a great signing - NOT LUCK. Stevens was a GREAT hire at the time, almost won coach of the year and was EXACTLY what the team needed at that time. IT was a young team, the core had success with Stevens in the AHL. They immediately responded and had success in the NHL. Great move.
I highlighted the sentence because it proved you had a critical reading skill problem with understanding the point I made. The rest of your response to me was moot because you failed to grasp or understand the point that I had made: Paul Holmgren had no intention of Bob playing with the Flyers this year (that's just a fact). He was expecting Boucher and Leighton, and lets just say I would expect our team SVPCT to look a bit different sans Bob.

Stevens was the next guy in line when Hitchcock got fired... they should have stepped back and did a job search, but they didn't (because Holmgren was close with Stevens from all their years working together on the Phantoms, I'm sure). That led to a team with a very poor even strength system that lived and died based on special teams (which Stevens did not coach, and never did).

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Most GMs aren't going to fire a coach that have winning records and lead a team to the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong, Stevens definitely should have gone much earlier since there were obvious major flaws in his coaching, but I don't blame Homer much for waiting so long to get rid of him.
Most GMs don't sit around on a coach that has his team implode the way Stevens' teams did seemingly every year he was here, too. I agree, I was actually shocked they actually canned him last year... but my God was he terrible.

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12-01-2010, 02:21 PM
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You are the ignorant one - I see this all the time in your posts. Lavy was fired in Carolina - is he a terrible coach? Was he a bad hire? Or is the cup he helped them win enough to change your mind? What is your point Jester????
Here's why you're ignorant: I started arguing on these boards that Stevens sucked in his first full season coaching the team. I didn't arrive at that decision because he was fired.

Now, you would know that if you'd been around here, but you weren't (apparently). So, it's pure ignorance to suggest that I think Stevens is a bad coach because he got fired. I thought he was a bad coach for pretty much his entire tenure.

And that, phillyfanatic, is why what you wrote (paired with this post) is the definition of ignorance: you don't know what you're talking about.

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12-01-2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Wrong again. Bob wasn't planned to play in the NHL "this year" but when he was signed Homer said that Bob and Ericsson are the future goalies. He corrected a problem that was there for 20 years. He gave us future stud goalies. One of those goalies is turning into pure Gold, and from everything I have read - the Flyer scouts not only are "not surprised" but they were very much "expecting" this. He is old enough to play in the NHL and his fundamentals are outstanding and the scouts thought he could play in the league immediately. From day 1 in training camp, he has shown - they were right. Luck - NOT!
How is that wrong? I think you're misunderstanding the point. You just said
Quote:
Bob wasn't planned to play in the NHL "this year"
That's Jester's point (and mine from a couple posts up). I give all the credit in the world for signing Bob. A great coup, because yes, he is the future (along with Eriksson). The point is, Homer is lucky that the FUTURE became the NOW. That wasn't the plan. Never was.

How can you admit that Bob was signed to be the future, then claim that it was expected of him to be the man now?

I don't think the organization is "surprised" at his skill; that's why they signed him afterall. I think they are surprised he had little to no adjustment period. That is where Jester's (and my) luck argument comes in.

Just look at the signing thread, aside from a comment here or there, almost everyone says he "Should start in the AHL." Even IrishSniper who was one of the biggest proponents of throwing him into the fire says "he might even be our backup next year if he has a strong camp". Almost no one, expected him to do what he is doing.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=772739

Google Flyers Sign Bobrovsky, and let me know how many articles you find that speculate he will be our starter this year when he was signed.

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12-01-2010, 02:26 PM
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Wasn't there an article somewhere in which Homer admits he had no earthly idea that Bob would do this, and that he acted on the strong urging of his scout?

Either way, just because a goalie is good in another league doesn't mean they can be good in the NHL. Leighton had good minors numbers, and his NHL career has mostly sucked. It was completely possible that Bob wouldn't be able to transition to the American game. Homer got damned lucky this offseason, considering with Leighton's injury, this team almost faced a flaming disaster on wheels.

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12-01-2010, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
They were struggling under Hitchcock. Many young players struggle in that environment. Homer hired a players coach to get their confidence back and it worked. It helped. Don't agree? Ask Richards and Carter - they would be the first to admit it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guess how many seasons Richards played under Hitch? 1
Guess how many seasons Carter played under Hitch? 1

When Hitch was fired, they were 21 years old.... HARDLY failing under Hitch since it was their start of their 2nd year with him. So Stevens had 2 21 year olds, who were expected to be pretty good players (well no one expected Richie to be a point guy) and they turned out that way. Cant really say it was all because of Stevens. Stevens was good with young players but to say that the way they are now is because of him is short of laughable.


PS. Im so ****** when trying to find ages of players during certain years.


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12-01-2010, 02:29 PM
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Stevens served his purpose for 06-7 and 07-08. He should have been fired in 08-09 when we lost 10 games in a row, or at least when we got thrashed by pittsburgh for the 2nd straight year.

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12-01-2010, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Here's why you're ignorant: I started arguing on these boards that Stevens sucked in his first full season coaching the team. I didn't arrive at that decision because he was fired.

Now, you would know that if you'd been around here, but you weren't (apparently). So, it's pure ignorance to suggest that I think Stevens is a bad coach because he got fired. I thought he was a bad coach for pretty much his entire tenure.

And that, phillyfanatic, is why what you wrote (paired with this post) is the definition of ignorance: you don't know what you're talking about.
Writing it four years ago makes it even worse! Unlike others on this board, I don't care how nasty your responses get - when your wrong, your wrong. Stevens was exactly what the young Flyers needed. He was promoted because of the success he had with the core players in the AHL the lockout year. He had the same success in the NHL with the same players and therefore, it was a good hire. I didn't complain when he was fired, it was time to hire someone else at that time.

On the X's and O's portion of coaching, we had Terry Murray to assist and he did a great job. The proof is in the success the team had in the Stevens years.

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12-01-2010, 02:31 PM
  #97
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Wasn't there an article somewhere in which Homer admits he had no earthly idea that Bob would do this, and that he acted on the strong urging of his scout?
Most scouting is done by...well, scouts. Which is why I don't get how GMs get as much credit as they do for draft and prospect signings.

Anyways, it's kind of funny that Homer's ass has been saved by luck for two seasons in a row when it comes to goaltending. Admittedly, the only reason we even needed Leighton last year was because of some really bad luck, but he still didn't have a backup plan in place beyond Emery last year.

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12-01-2010, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Writing it four years ago makes it even worse! Unlike others on this board, I don't care how nasty your responses get - when your wrong, your wrong. Stevens was exactly what the young Flyers needed. He was promoted because of the success he had with the core players in the AHL the lockout year. He had the same success in the NHL with the same players and therefore, it was a good hire. I didn't complain when he was fired, it was time to hire someone else at that time.

On the X's and O's portion of coaching, we had Terry Murray to assist and he did a great job. The proof is in the success the team had in the Stevens years.
If he's such a great coach, especially with young talented players, why doesn't he have a head coaching job now? Atlanta, St. Louis, Phoenix, Edmonton. There are plenty of teams budding with young talent that could use his talents to massage young players into studs like he did with Richards and Carter.

Could you IMAGINE what he could do with Hall, Eberle, Paajarvi??!?!?!!

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12-01-2010, 02:33 PM
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On Bobrovsky. Many on this board believed we should sign Turco, Nabokov or another for 3-4 years (what they demanded). Homer said over and over that he thought Leighton and Boucher would be good behind the best 1-6 D in the league. Was he right? I think so. When Leighton comes back, I suspect his GAA to be about 2 and his save percentage in the .920 range. Why? Because this D is amazing, and Homer made a choice to use the money to fix the 5-6 pairing and leave the goaltending as is.

Homer also said he thought Bob was close and didn't want to go longterm with a UFA goalie. Right again. He made the right decision. He stayed put and added Bobrovsky to the system just in case. Well, the backup plan became the plan and here we are......LUCKY>>>>>>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

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12-01-2010, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Writing it four years ago makes it even worse! Unlike others on this board, I don't care how nasty your responses get - when your wrong, your wrong. Stevens was exactly what the young Flyers needed. He was promoted because of the success he had with the core players in the AHL the lockout year. He had the same success in the NHL with the same players and therefore, it was a good hire. I didn't complain when he was fired, it was time to hire someone else at that time.

On the X's and O's portion of coaching, we had Terry Murray to assist and he did a great job. The proof is in the success the team had in the Stevens years.
Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true.

What the hell kind of success did we have under Stevens? Some really bad losing streaks in the regular season, two consecutive years getting destroyed by the Penguins, and then the 09-10 season was almost completely lost while he was at the helm.

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