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GM of the year? or Stanley Cup or Bust

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Old
12-01-2010, 02:35 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
On Bobrovsky. Many on this board believed we should sign Turco, Nabokov or another for 3-4 years (what they demanded). Homer said over and over that he thought Leighton and Boucher would be good behind the best 1-6 D in the league. Was he right? I think so. When Leighton comes back, I suspect his GAA to be about 2 and his save percentage in the .920 range. Why? Because this D is amazing, and Homer made a choice to use the money to fix the 5-6 pairing and leave the goaltending as is.

Homer also said he thought Bob was close and didn't want to go longterm with a UFA goalie. Right again. He made the right decision. He stayed put and added Bobrovsky to the system just in case. Well, the backup plan became the plan and here we are......LUCKY>>>>>>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Do you forget that Holmgren tried to sign both Nabokov and Turco? We acquired negotiating rights to both of them

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12-01-2010, 02:35 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
On Bobrovsky. Many on this board believed we should sign Turco, Nabokov or another for 3-4 years (what they demanded). Homer said over and over that he thought Leighton and Boucher would be good behind the best 1-6 D in the league. Was he right? I think so. When Leighton comes back, I suspect his GAA to be about 2 and his save percentage in the .920 range. Why? Because this D is amazing, and Homer made a choice to use the money to fix the 5-6 pairing and leave the goaltending as is.

Homer also said he thought Bob was close and didn't want to go longterm with a UFA goalie. Right again. He made the right decision. He stayed put and added Bobrovsky to the system just in case. Well, the backup plan became the plan and here we are......LUCKY>>>>>>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Nope he was wrong. Thats the whole point. Boosh right now is .901 sv% with a 2.57 GAA. Thats not to good. I expect Leighton to be around the same.

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12-01-2010, 02:36 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
If he's such a great coach, especially with young talented players, why doesn't he have a head coaching job now? Atlanta, St. Louis, Phoenix, Edmonton. There are plenty of teams budding with young talent that could use his talents to massage young players into studs like he did with Richards and Carter.

Could you IMAGINE what he could do with Hall, Eberle, Paajarvi??!?!?!!
Because, he didn't coach them in the AHL to a title! He had success with Richards and Carter et all. Listen - do you dispute his success with the team in years 1 and 2 of his job? No? Then whether he is a good coach is studid - he had success. He had help with the job in Murray. He was a good hire that had plenty of success. He was fired for a better coach when needed. The GM handled years 1-4 of his job amazingly well. What does he have to show for it? From last place to ECF, Playoffs, SCF to contender for cup. Not bad for ol' shooter.

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12-01-2010, 02:36 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
On Bobrovsky. Many on this board believed we should sign Turco, Nabokov or another for 3-4 years (what they demanded). Homer said over and over that he thought Leighton and Boucher would be good behind the best 1-6 D in the league. Was he right? I think so. When Leighton comes back, I suspect his GAA to be about 2 and his save percentage in the .920 range. Why? Because this D is amazing, and Homer made a choice to use the money to fix the 5-6 pairing and leave the goaltending as is.

Homer also said he thought Bob was close and didn't want to go longterm with a UFA goalie. Right again. He made the right decision. He stayed put and added Bobrovsky to the system just in case. Well, the backup plan became the plan and here we are......LUCKY>>>>>>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Because Turco ended up with 3-4 years.

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12-01-2010, 02:37 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
If he's such a great coach, especially with young talented players, why doesn't he have a head coaching job now? Atlanta, St. Louis, Phoenix, Edmonton. There are plenty of teams budding with young talent that could use his talents to massage young players into studs like he did with Richards and Carter.

Could you IMAGINE what he could do with Hall, Eberle, Paajarvi??!?!?!!
Atlanta and Phoenix are having some pretty good success and Phoenix in particular has a pretty good coach. Good point with Edmonton though.

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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
On Bobrovsky. Many on this board believed we should sign Turco, Nabokov or another for 3-4 years (what they demanded). Homer said over and over that he thought Leighton and Boucher would be good behind the best 1-6 D in the league. Was he right? I think so. When Leighton comes back, I suspect his GAA to be about 2 and his save percentage in the .920 range. Why? Because this D is amazing, and Homer made a choice to use the money to fix the 5-6 pairing and leave the goaltending as is.

Homer also said he thought Bob was close and didn't want to go longterm with a UFA goalie. Right again. He made the right decision. He stayed put and added Bobrovsky to the system just in case. Well, the backup plan became the plan and here we are......LUCKY>>>>>>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, that worked out so well during the Cup Finals.

You also seem to keep missing and ignoring the point about Bobrovsky. No one, not Homer or any of the fans or any of the media, thought Bobrovsky was capable of playing in the NHL immediately. He lucked out. Having something fortunate happen to you that was unexpected and against all odds is luck.

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12-01-2010, 02:38 PM
  #106
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Wrong again. Bob wasn't planned to play in the NHL "this year" but when he was signed Homer said that Bob and Ericsson are the future goalies. He corrected a problem that was there for 20 years. He gave us future stud goalies. One of those goalies is turning into pure Gold, and from everything I have read - the Flyer scouts not only are "not surprised" but they were very much "expecting" this. He is old enough to play in the NHL and his fundamentals are outstanding and the scouts thought he could play in the league immediately. From day 1 in training camp, he has shown - they were right. Luck - NOT!

Paul Holmgren is the best and most successful GM in hockey. Ray Shero got lucky with Crosby and Malkin. Dale Tallon got lucky with Kane. In Detoit, they have been getting "lucky" out of russia for years. However, years later.....everyone agrees that their scouting in Europe is the reason for the luck (Detroit is the class of the NHL in management, Flyers next). They had Datsyk, Zetterburg and others high on their list when others didn't know their names. That isn't luck, that is good scouting. Homer put Little and others at work in Europe to find good goaltending. They found Bob. That isn't luck. That is good scouting. That is a direct result of good management and therefore, is another feather in Homers cap.

He has made brilliant move after brilliant move. I have said it before and I will say it again. To be a great GM in this league you need to look bad at times. Noboby is going to bat one thousand. However, Homer is batting about .400 with 40 Home Runs. And in NHL GM terms, that is the best in the league. Want to debate it? Bring it haters.
How did he give the flyers 2 future stud goalies? That is incorrect. He drafted and signed 2 goalies who have a chance to be really good. They are not even close to being stud goalies. Much like many of the past goalies they have drafted. How come this great scouting in Europe admitted to not knowing who the monster was last summer? I do agree that yes it was good scouting that found the rushkie, as it was also poor scouting to not know who the monster was as well. Also weren’t these same scouts(it was someone in the organization) the same ones who said during the run last year that Leighton could be the guy in goal they have been missing.
Their scouting has yet to do anything that one would call them great. Middle of the pack.

Brilliant move after brilliant move? Really. I am so shocked it took Shooter what 16 years in between GM jobs base don’t he job he as done. He is not the best in the league. Any gm can throw $ around and sign guys. Doesn’t take a shrewd gm to do that. He is way too impatient and overpays in almost every instance.He is a middle of the pack gm. Certainly not the best

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12-01-2010, 02:38 PM
  #107
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Because, he didn't coach them in the AHL to a title! He had success with Richards and Carter et all. Listen - do you dispute his success with the team in years 1 and 2 of his job? No? Then whether he is a good coach is studid - he had success. He had help with the job in Murray. He was a good hire that had plenty of success. He was fired for a better coach when needed. The GM handled years 1-4 of his job amazingly well. What does he have to show for it? From last place to ECF, Playoffs, SCF to contender for cup. Not bad for ol' shooter.
Again... he had 14 games with Richards and Carter, who joined a pretty good Phantoms team. They were highly regarded prospects... STEVENS DIDNT MAKE RICHARDS AND CARTER.

Its not that hard.

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12-01-2010, 02:38 PM
  #108
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Do you forget that Holmgren tried to sign both Nabokov and Turco? We acquired negotiating rights to both of them
I don't forget that - he didn't sign them cause they wanted too much for too long. Well done. As usual, Homer did everything he could to upgrade in net, however - he made the right decision and so now he is bashed for exploring all his options?

I test drove a new Hyundai Tiburon a few years back too. I picked the Civic. I was just exploring my options. That is what one does when making a decision

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12-01-2010, 02:39 PM
  #109
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Because, he didn't coach them in the AHL to a title! He had success with Richards and Carter et all. Listen - do you dispute his success with the team in years 1 and 2 of his job? No? Then whether he is a good coach is studid - he had success. He had help with the job in Murray. He was a good hire that had plenty of success. He was fired for a better coach when needed. The GM handled years 1-4 of his job amazingly well. What does he have to show for it? From last place to ECF, Playoffs, SCF to contender for cup. Not bad for ol' shooter.
HAHAHA you can't be serious?

So John Stevens will never have another head coaching job again because he can only successfully groom the players he coached in the AHL? Those he coached to the a title no less? Well that's just a shame.

I'm starting to think this is all an act and you are just fishing for responses haha.

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12-01-2010, 02:40 PM
  #110
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For the record the majority of the goalies that were wanted (Turco, Ellis, Mason) have already lost their starting jobs.

I'm not saying Homer expected Bob to be as good as he was, but maybe he just thought that the guys that we had as an option weren't really any better.

So far, it looks like taking a gamble on Bob, and signing a known commodity in Leighton was a better move than any others.

I'm sure it's luck that Bob is so good so fast, but I really doubt Homer (or at least his team of scouts) had 0 expectations for him to come and do well maybe later in the year.

Also, bear in mind, just because Homer had no idea he would be good and didn't expect him to make the NHL this year doesn't mean the people below him did. Maybe they said "just trust us, you won't need Turco, Ellis, etc. Just sign what we have for now and Bob will take over by the end of the year." His job as GM is to trust those guys. Maybe that's all he did.

I really, highly doubt, as most of you seem so convinced, he just "threw stuff at the wall and saw what sticks."

I'm fairly certain, based on his information from the team of people the organization pays millions of dollars to, it wasn't just random.

Or I could be wrong and you all would be significantly better GM's and win the cup your first year. It's amazing how well you can do in hindsight.

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12-01-2010, 02:40 PM
  #111
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Again... he had 14 games with Richards and Carter, who joined a pretty good Phantoms team. They were highly regarded prospects... STEVENS DIDNT MAKE RICHARDS AND CARTER.

Its not that hard.
Did I say he did? I said he was the right coach at the right time. He helped in their development and confidence. They are star players, if interviewed - they would credit John Stevens too. I am not saying they would suck without him. But, Hitchcock was the wrong coach for their development.......

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12-01-2010, 02:42 PM
  #112
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For the record the majority of the goalies that were wanted (Turco, Ellis, Mason) have already lost their starting jobs.

I'm not saying Homer expected Bob to be as good as he was, but maybe he just thought that the guys that we had as an option weren't really any better.

So far, it looks like taking a gamble on Bob, and signing a known commodity in Leighton was a better move than any others.

I'm sure it's luck that Bob is so good so fast, but I really doubt Homer (or at least his team of scouts) had 0 expectations for him to come and do well maybe later in the year.

Also, bear in mind, just because Homer had no idea he would be good and didn't expect him to make the NHL this year doesn't mean the people below him did. Maybe they said "just trust us, you won't need Turco, Ellis, etc. Just sign what we have for now and Bob will take over by the end of the year." His job as GM is to trust those guys. Maybe that's all he did.

I really, highly doubt, as most of you seem so convinced, he just "threw stuff at the wall and saw what sticks."

I'm fairly certain, based on his information from the team of people the organization pays millions of dollars to, it wasn't just random.

Or I could be wrong and you all would be significantly better GM's and win the cup your first year. It's amazing how well you can do in hindsight.
Being honest, even with our current team, I doubt we are where we are now with Leighton and Boosh as our tandem

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12-01-2010, 02:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I don't forget that - he didn't sign them cause they wanted too much for too long. Well done. As usual, Homer did everything he could to upgrade in net, however - he made the right decision and so now he is bashed for exploring all his options?

I test drove a new Hyundai Tiburon a few years back too. I picked the Civic. I was just exploring my options. That is what one does when making a decision
Well...there's something that's blatantly false. Holmgren re-signed and overpaid Leighton to be our starter before free agency even began. That's the opposite of exploring your options. Do I really even have to go through a list of NHL goalies that signed for less then Leighton did?

I'm starting to think you're just fishing for responses too rather then just being a blind homer.

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12-01-2010, 02:43 PM
  #114
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HAHAHA you can't be serious?

So John Stevens will never have another head coaching job again because he can only successfully groom the players he coached in the AHL? Those he coached to the a title no less? Well that's just a shame.

I'm starting to think this is all an act and you are just fishing for responses haha.
He are talking about the hiring of John Stevens. He was promoted internally instead of hiring another re-cycled coach because, he had experience with our core players and had success in our system. That is why he was HIRED. I could give two s**** if he is hired elsewhere, what I am explaining is why he was a good hire at the time. Do you think he was a bad hire by Homer? I don't. I think he was a great hire. The best hire he could of made.

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12-01-2010, 02:44 PM
  #115
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I don't forget that - he didn't sign them cause they wanted too much for too long. Well done. As usual, Homer did everything he could to upgrade in net, however - he made the right decision and so now he is bashed for exploring all his options?

I test drove a new Hyundai Tiburon a few years back too. I picked the Civic. I was just exploring my options. That is what one does when making a decision

Uh, Turco signed for 1.3 million for 1 year. He also signed Leighton before free agency started and overpaid him, both of which were dumb moves.

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12-01-2010, 02:47 PM
  #116
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Well...there's something that's blatantly false. Holmgren re-signed and overpaid Leighton to be our starter before free agency even began. That's the opposite of exploring your options. Do I really even have to go through a list of NHL goalies that signed for less then Leighton did?

I'm starting to think you're just fishing for responses too rather then just being a blind homer.
Homer locked up the goalie that took us to the final the year before and managed to improve our defense and forwards while bringing in Bobrovsky to improve the goaltending depth of the Flyers. You don't look at one move to prove the worth of the general manager. You look at all the moves and the results and in doing so, you will see that he did a great job this summer.

For those of you that can't get past Leighton getting $500,000 more than market or Shelley getting more years and money then he is worth.....look at the team. Gagne was moved at the right time - he is on the decline. That 5 million was used to pay Leighton upgrade and improve our 5-6 pairing that was so terrible in the playoffs last year. Pronger plays 23 minutes a game now instead of 30 because we roll 6 D.

Think big picture garbage man.

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12-01-2010, 02:49 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
He are talking about the hiring of John Stevens. He was promoted internally instead of hiring another re-cycled coach because, he had experience with our core players and had success in our system. That is why he was HIRED. I could give two s**** if he is hired elsewhere, what I am explaining is why he was a good hire at the time. Do you think he was a bad hire by Homer? I don't. I think he was a great hire. The best hire he could of made.
But you're arguing that he is a good coach.

Jester says:
Quote:
Stevens was a great coach though, right?
You quote him and say:
Quote:
Absolutely!
If he was great, he'd get a head coaching job somewhere. Stop backpedaling.

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12-01-2010, 02:49 PM
  #118
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Uh, Turco signed for 1.3 million for 1 year. He also signed Leighton before free agency started and overpaid him, both of which were dumb moves.
Everyone EVERYWHERE will tell you that Turco was signed in CHicago long before the deal happened. He wanted to play in Chicago, the term and years are not the same he was asking Homer for. Just like Carter wouldn't have signed in Toronto for the same money and term, he wanted Philly......so Leaf fans can't claim Burke a bad GM because he didn't sign Carter to the same deal and so on.

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12-01-2010, 02:50 PM
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Uh, Turco signed for 1.3 million for 1 year. He also signed Leighton before free agency started and overpaid him, both of which were dumb moves.
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Well...there's something that's blatantly false. Holmgren re-signed and overpaid Leighton to be our starter before free agency even began. That's the opposite of exploring your options. Do I really even have to go through a list of NHL goalies that signed for less then Leighton did?

I'm starting to think you're just fishing for responses too rather then just being a blind homer.
Yea man, don't you know? First you BUY the civic. Then test drive the Tiburon. Duh.

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12-01-2010, 02:51 PM
  #120
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Homer locked up the goalie that took us to the final the year before and managed to improve our defense and forwards while bringing in Bobrovsky to improve the goaltending depth of the Flyers. You don't look at one move to prove the worth of the general manager. You look at all the moves and the results and in doing so, you will see that he did a great job this summer.

For those of you that can't get past Leighton getting $500,000 more than market or Shelley getting more years and money then he is worth.....look at the team. Gagne was moved at the right time - he is on the decline. That 5 million was used to pay Leighton upgrade and improve our 5-6 pairing that was so terrible in the playoffs last year. Pronger plays 23 minutes a game now instead of 30 because we roll 6 D.

Think big picture garbage man.
You didnt just defend the Shelly signing, the Gagne trade, and the Leighton pay raise all in one post did you?


Oh ****... I didnt know one can be this much of a Homer fan.

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12-01-2010, 02:52 PM
  #121
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But you're arguing that he is a good coach.

Jester says:


You quote him and say:


If he was great, he'd get a head coaching job somewhere. Stop backpedaling.
This is what I said. If you read past the first word, you wouldn't be so confused. Your head hurt?

Absolutely! He was the perfect coach at that time. After Hitchcock, we needed a players coach and Stevens was LOVED by his players. He helped us go from worst in the NHL to a contender the next. He was replaced by a better head coach in Laviolette at the right time who took us to a Stanley Cup Final. Well done Paul Holmgren. Two good moves at the coaching position.

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12-01-2010, 02:56 PM
  #122
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For the record the majority of the goalies that were wanted (Turco, Ellis, Mason) have already lost their starting jobs.
...Okay? Practically all of them are still better options then Leighton, especially an injured Leighton. Mason is a damn solid starter, Ellis and Turco aren't spectacular but they're both playing behind far lesser defenses and teams then this Flyers team, Biron signed for practically nothing and did well for us as a starter behind much lesser teams, and Nabokov ended up going to the KHL because no one wanted to give him the money he demanded.

Just because a couple of those goalies are having hard times right now on completely different (and for the most part worse) teams doesn't mean Homer did a good job.

Quote:
I'm not saying Homer expected Bob to be as good as he was, but maybe he just thought that the guys that we had as an option weren't really any better.
Our two options were a newly signed prospect whose career consisted of 76 games played in the KHL and a waiver-wire scrub goalie that lost us the SCF. Anything was better then those options at the time.

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So far, it looks like taking a gamble on Bob, and signing a known commodity in Leighton was a better move than any others.
Bob playing as our starter is complete luck as far as Holmgren is concerned and how is Leighton a known commodity? He's only played a grand total of 40 or so games for us and before coming to us he was a waiver wire backup that no one wanted. Hell, Leighton's been injured ever since we signed him. How is that a "better move"? Not to mention that Leighton is grossly overpaid.

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I'm sure it's luck that Bob is so good so fast, but I really doubt Homer (or at least his team of scouts) had 0 expectations for him to come and do well maybe later in the year.
If they didn't expect him to start the season on the team then I doubt they expected him to play on the team later on. Especially since we already had two NHL goalies signed.

Fact is that players coming from the KHL and other European leagues usually need at least one year in the minors to adjust. Let alone a young, undrafted goalie prospect from the KHL.

Quote:
Also, bear in mind, just because Homer had no idea he would be good and didn't expect him to make the NHL this year doesn't mean the people below him did. Maybe they said "just trust us, you won't need Turco, Ellis, etc. Just sign what we have for now and Bob will take over by the end of the year." His job as GM is to trust those guys. Maybe that's all he did.
If the people below him are influencing his free agent decisions that much then everyone involved is an idiot. If people actually told him that he didn't need to sign a goalie in the off-season because they were counting on an unknown, undrafted rookie from the KHL to take over halfway through the season, then those people are morons.

Quote:
I really, highly doubt, as most of you seem so convinced, he just "threw stuff at the wall and saw what sticks."
Depends what you mean. He threw some low-ball offers at Turco and Nabokov and then put all of his chips on Leighton before free agency began.

Quote:
I'm fairly certain, based on his information from the team of people the organization pays millions of dollars to, it wasn't just random.
What wasn't just random? Having Bobrovsky as our starter? That's complete luck. Overpaying Leighton to be our starter before free agency began? It's not random, but it's definitely stupid.

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Or I could be wrong and you all would be significantly better GM's and win the cup your first year. It's amazing how well you can do in hindsight.
Yes, you're right, Holmgren and every other GM, coach, etc. is infallible because they're in the NHL and we're not. No need to discuss anything.

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12-01-2010, 02:58 PM
  #123
phillyfanatic
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You didnt just defend the Shelly signing, the Gagne trade, and the Leighton pay raise all in one post did you?


Oh ****... I didnt know one can be this much of a Homer fan.
I am the biggest Homer fan of them all. I look at all the moves and the sum of the parts is worth so much more than the singular mistakes you all focus on. Gagne was a great trade - how is he doing this year? DId we use that 5 million to improve the team? Me thinks we did. Shelley is a four line four minute goon who make 1 million a year. Hardly a make or break transaction that you make it seem. And Leighton got 1.5 million for taking us to the Stanley Cup Finals. If we gave him 5 years at 3 million then I would be upset. This is a great team, how come you all have to focus on such insignificant moves when bashing Homer:

Briere, Pronger, Timonen, Hartnell, Coburn, Carle, OD, Meszaros, Giroux, Carter, Zherdev, Leighton, Leino, Betts, Laps, etc. All show up as positives and all add into the current team. Then you take away the bad, you have one of the best teams in hockey again. Just like every year in the Paul Holmgren era. False?

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12-01-2010, 03:01 PM
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Homer locked up the goalie that took us to the final the year before and managed to improve our defense and forwards while bringing in Bobrovsky to improve the goaltending depth of the Flyers. You don't look at one move to prove the worth of the general manager. You look at all the moves and the results and in doing so, you will see that he did a great job this summer.

For those of you that can't get past Leighton getting $500,000 more than market or Shelley getting more years and money then he is worth.....look at the team. Gagne was moved at the right time - he is on the decline. That 5 million was used to pay Leighton upgrade and improve our 5-6 pairing that was so terrible in the playoffs last year. Pronger plays 23 minutes a game now instead of 30 because we roll 6 D.

Think big picture garbage man.
Jesus you backpedal a lot.

I'm gonna ignore everything you just said here to get back to the original point.

First you said that Holmgren explored all of his options in free agency for a goalie. You even used a car analogy to get your point across.

Then I presented the fact that Holmgren signed Leighton to be our starter before free agency even began...thus proving that Holmgren didn't explore his options at all.

So can you at least admit that you were blatantly wrong before I discuss anything else?

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Yea man, don't you know? First you BUY the civic. Then test drive the Tiburon. Duh.
With Holmgren it's more like he finds a crappy used car, drives it till it explodes in his face, and then stumbles upon Herbie while looking for a new crappy used car to drive.

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12-01-2010, 03:02 PM
  #125
DUHockey9
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This is what I said. If you read past the first word, you wouldn't be so confused. Your head hurt?

Absolutely! He was the perfect coach at that time. After Hitchcock, we needed a players coach and Stevens was LOVED by his players. He helped us go from worst in the NHL to a contender the next. He was replaced by a better head coach in Laviolette at the right time who took us to a Stanley Cup Final. Well done Paul Holmgren. Two good moves at the coaching position.
Ok so the answer then, is he is not "a great coach" but rather an adequate coach for what we needed for a VERY small window of time.

I think I can agree to that.

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