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Why are worse this year then last year

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Old
11-30-2010, 11:44 PM
  #51
Sidney the Kidney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilio View Post
That's exactly my point: HE CAN DO IT ALL ALONE...That's how good he is...When he's on the ice, the Isles completely change. Here's a little interesting stat from last year to prove my point:

For 118 out of the 222 goals the Isles scored last year, Mark Streit was on the ice
For 93 out of the 264 goals the Isles were scored on last year, Mark Streit was on the ice.

This means that 53.15% of the goals for the Isles, Streit was present
This also means he was only present for 35.61% of the goals scored agains the Isles

And Streit plays on both the PP and PK...

Now tell me if you don't think he makes a difference?
Just curious, where'd you get these stats from?

I'm just not sure of their accuracy when he was an even in +/-, yet your numbers show that somehow he should have compiled close to a +25 (assuming PP goals scored for/against are relatively close) since your numbers show he was on the ice for 25 more goals than he was for against.

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Old
12-01-2010, 12:07 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by IslesManiac View Post
One Word...INJURIES!(anytime you lose your star D-man and upcoming star Winger your going to suffer)
KO had 19 goals, and was minus 22 last season. How do you see that as an upcoming star? Just because he hustles? The future of this team is built on a bunch of "ifs", "maybes", and wishful thinking.

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12-01-2010, 08:21 AM
  #53
Chapin Landvogt
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Lots of answers here...

Hope Jack has some (quick) solutions.

If he does, we know they won't be including
- Okposo
- Streit

Whatever the solutions are, they'll have to heavily rely on:
- Tavares
- Moulson
- Comeau
- Nielsen
- Wisniewski

One way or the other, these five players have to look in the mirror and realize that if they aren't regularly generating goals, no-one will. Team defense and solid performances by Dipietro and Roloson will mean nothing if these guys aren't the regular active figures in offense-generation.

That's a very simple concept, I think.

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12-01-2010, 01:05 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Just curious, where'd you get these stats from?

I'm just not sure of their accuracy when he was an even in +/-, yet your numbers show that somehow he should have compiled close to a +25 (assuming PP goals scored for/against are relatively close) since your numbers show he was on the ice for 25 more goals than he was for against.
I got this on NHL.com

and the reason for 25 goals more is because Streit on the PP is an absolute killer and almost all goals were scored when he was there, while on PK, he wasn't scored on as much...Basically it means the Isles are relatively good on the PP (compared to their 5 on 5) and relitavely good on the PK (compared to their 5 on 5)

But my point is very simple, and the stats show it very well..Streit on the ice makes EVERYTHING different around him

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12-01-2010, 01:20 PM
  #55
Doshell Propivo
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They sucked last year too.

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Old
12-01-2010, 01:21 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilio View Post
I got this on NHL.com

and the reason for 25 goals more is because Streit on the PP is an absolute killer and almost all goals were scored when he was there, while on PK, he wasn't scored on as much...Basically it means the Isles are relatively good on the PP (compared to their 5 on 5) and relitavely good on the PK (compared to their 5 on 5)

But my point is very simple, and the stats show it very well..Streit on the ice makes EVERYTHING different around him
With or without Streit this is the worst team in the league. By far. Even with Streit they would have a hard time making the playoffs in the AHL.

After 31 seasons watching Islanders hockey, this is the worst I've ever seen. And I've seen some baaaad ones.

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12-01-2010, 01:35 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilio View Post
I got this on NHL.com

and the reason for 25 goals more is because Streit on the PP is an absolute killer and almost all goals were scored when he was there, while on PK, he wasn't scored on as much...Basically it means the Isles are relatively good on the PP (compared to their 5 on 5) and relitavely good on the PK (compared to their 5 on 5)

But my point is very simple, and the stats show it very well..Streit on the ice makes EVERYTHING different around him
I meant like the actual page link that shows those exact numbers, because I'd like to look at the numbers myself. I can't find anywhere that lists who is on the ice for each PP or PK goal scored. Even strength is easy by simply looking at their +/-, but since you don't get a plus for a PP goal or a minus for a PP against, where are you getting the information about how many PP goals for and against Streit was actually on the ice for?

Because I'm looking at the raw numbers, and without being able to see the *exact* link to how many goals he was on for and against on the PP, the raw numbers make me skeptical of the numbers you came up with.

Let's break it down like this.

To begin with, Streit was an even in +/- which obviously means he was on the ice for as many goals for as goals against at even strength, which means the only way for him to have a +25 in goals for/goals against differential is to earn them on the PK and PP. So we'll focus exclusively on PP stats for and against, since ES goals has canceled each other out.

A couple of raw stats to break down:
-The Isles scored a total of 49 powerplay goals last season. They were tied with Calgary for 4th worst PP in the entire league
-The Isles surrendered 71 powerplay goals, ranking them second last in the entire league in PK to only the Leafs.
-That means as a team they were a collective -22 on special teams.

So it's hard to believe without seeing the actual numbers, that despite the fact the Isles were a collective minus 22 on special teams, Streit somehow came away with a plus 25?

Even if he was on the ice for every single PP goal scored (which I doubt he was. I'm sure the second unit scored even a handful of goals with him on the bench), which puts him as on the ice for 49 PP goals for. That means he was only on the ice for 24 of the total 71 PP goals against.

The only thing I can think of to make your numbers make sense is if Streit rarely played PK, and thus wasn't on enough when the opposition scored on the PP.

But if that's the case, then that's kind of disingenuous with your numbers since him not being on the ice when PP goals is scored isn't exactly proof of how good he is defensively, if he's not played in those situations. You're basically crediting him for his performance during times of the game he's not even playing. So of course he's not going to be on the ice for a bunch of PP goals against if he's not played in those situations.

If that's truly the case, then I think your argument is flawed to begin with because it will always reward PP quarterbacks who don't PK, and always punish top notch PK defenders who don't play the PP. A PP quarterback will get the benefit of being on the ice for a bunch of PP goals for, yet won't be docked anything for PP goals against since he doesn't play on the PK.

Meanwhile, you could be the best defensive defenseman in hockey and still come away as a "minus" in your system if you only play on the PK, with no PP minutes, since your special teams numbers will consist exclusively of goals against while you were on the ice, but no goals for.


Last edited by Sidney the Kidney: 12-01-2010 at 01:49 PM.
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Old
12-01-2010, 01:49 PM
  #58
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You go in individual stats, NY Islanders, Defensemen, 2009-2010, Plus/Minus
there you go...

He was on the ice for 43 PPGF and 18 PPGA...Making +25...

which means virtually every PP goal, he was on...And not that many PP goals against..Conclusion: (....)

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12-01-2010, 01:52 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilio View Post
You go in individual stats, NY Islanders, Defensemen, 2009-2010, Plus/Minus
there you go...

He was on the ice for 43 PPGF and 18 PPGA...Making +25...

which means virtually every PP goal, he was on...And not that many PP goals against..Conclusion: (....)
Yeah, I thought of that afterward, hence my multiple edits. However, my edited points stand. That's kind of a misleading way of doing things, since you're basically rewarding him for being a PP QB who doesn't play much on the PK.

Of course he's going to be on the ice for more special teams goals for than against if he's a PP regular, but rarely sees PK time. I bet someone like Marc Andre Bergeron would similarly have a "plus" in special teams, since he plays the PP but not the PK. While someone like Robin Regehr or Anton Volchenkov would be massive "minus" players on special teams, since they will be on the ice for a lot of PP goals against, but don't play PP and thus won't be on the ice for PP goals for. No one in their right mind would suggest Bergeron's more important defensively than those two though, right?

As a matter of fact, that's exactly the flaw in the numbers you used. Look at M-A Bergeron's numbers last year for Montreal. Since he didn't PK and only played PP, he was on the ice for 33 PP goals for and zero PP against, leaving him at a +33 on special teams. Even though he was a -7 at even strength, the PP numbers boosted his overall "on the ice for" goals for/against is 57 to 31, which is a differential of +26, which is actually better than someone as solid as Josh Gorges. Gorges' even strength +/- was a decent +2, but his differential for total goals for/against was -18, largely because he barely played the PP, but played a prominent role on the PK (6 GF on the PP, 26 GA on the PP).

Would you argue that Bergeron was more important to Montreal last season than Gorges? Because your analysis breakdown above basically suggests as such.


Last edited by Sidney the Kidney: 12-01-2010 at 03:34 PM.
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12-01-2010, 04:21 PM
  #60
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And once again, that's where you needed a little more attentive reading and a little more research because if you would have read what I said, you would have realized that I mentioned that Streit was on both the PP and the PK...And if you would have made a research about it, you would have seen that Streit was 5th amongst all Islanders (Forwards AND Defensemen) for Short-handed TOI. This said, my point is proven, when he's on the ice, good stuff happened to the Islanders...It's as simple as that, and the stats prove it...It's not a coincidence trust me!!

and just for more, if we take only the 5 on 5 from last year (So Streit being a +0)

He was on for 75/145 goals for
and on for 75/174 goals against..

So even there we see, his ratio is a good one with 52% goals for and 43% goals against..

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12-01-2010, 05:18 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilio View Post
And once again, that's where you needed a little more attentive reading and a little more research because if you would have read what I said, you would have realized that I mentioned that Streit was on both the PP and the PK...And if you would have made a research about it, you would have seen that Streit was 5th amongst all Islanders (Forwards AND Defensemen) for Short-handed TOI. This said, my point is proven, when he's on the ice, good stuff happened to the Islanders...It's as simple as that, and the stats prove it...It's not a coincidence trust me!!

and just for more, if we take only the 5 on 5 from last year (So Streit being a +0)

He was on for 75/145 goals for
and on for 75/174 goals against..

So even there we see, his ratio is a good one with 52% goals for and 43% goals against..
Two points:
1- I wasn't arguing that Streit isn't important, or that he wasn't impressive for the Isles last season. He certainly was, and is, their only legitimate top pairing defenseman. And I didn't mean to compare him directly to Bergeron, who saw zero SH time as opposed to Streit who saw some. I was simply arguing your usage of those stats as the proof, and how those stats can be misleading without context (hence the example of Bergeron versus Gorges).

2-You might want to re-check the stats. Last season, Streit ranked 12th on the Islanders in SH ice time per game among all players, and 7th on the defense corps for SH ice time per game. Even if you want to remove Witt (demotion), Martinek (injury), and Sutton (traded) from that list, Streit still only ranked 4th in SH ice time per game amongst defensemen on the Isles at 1:47 per game. Gervais (2:24), Hillen (2:14), and Meyer (1:51) saw more minutes per game. In other words, when Sutton, Witt and Martinek were around, Streit was basically the third pairing on the PK. When they left, at best, he was the fourth option out there (ie. not the first pair thrown over the boards by the coaching staff).

Again, to stress, I'm not questioning Streit's abilities. I'm questioning how you interpreted those stats, and questioned the context in which you interpreted them to mean something.

Looking at your last post, that 5 on 5 example would have been a better thing for you to post to show how much Streit affects the Isles performance, since it's an apples to apples comparison (5 on 5 play when he's on the ice and when he's not). My main issue was you originally used stats that are sort of skewed in favor of those who play on the PP but don't necessarily log a lot of ice time on the PK (ie. Streit's team leading 5:12 per game on the PP compared to his 7th most PK time of 1:47).


Last edited by Sidney the Kidney: 12-01-2010 at 05:36 PM.
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Old
12-01-2010, 08:20 PM
  #62
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I think streits time on the pk is a lil skewed as well considering streit was the only dman last year with the ability to clear the puck. Wile on the pk he would clear it and be able to get off for a change wile our other dman more times then not would be held in there own zone hence the higher time played on the pk.

Edit: and I'm not on the bandwagon saying that the isles would be in a considerably better spot then they are now with streit or ko for that matter. This was not a team built to win.


Last edited by kpap57: 12-01-2010 at 08:47 PM.
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12-01-2010, 09:04 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilio View Post
And once again, that's where you needed a little more attentive reading and a little more research because if you would have read what I said, you would have realized that I mentioned that Streit was on both the PP and the PK...And if you would have made a research about it, you would have seen that Streit was 5th amongst all Islanders (Forwards AND Defensemen) for Short-handed TOI. This said, my point is proven, when he's on the ice, good stuff happened to the Islanders...It's as simple as that, and the stats prove it...It's not a coincidence trust me!!

and just for more, if we take only the 5 on 5 from last year (So Streit being a +0)

He was on for 75/145 goals for
and on for 75/174 goals against..

So even there we see, his ratio is a good one with 52% goals for and 43% goals against..
There's only one stat that matters in the NHL: winning.

Streit played in all 82 games last year-and this team went 34-37-11, for 26th place. There's absolutely no evidence that with Streit playing this team would be in playoff contention-as they've never finished better than 26th since he's been on the team. Get all the stats and numbers you'd like. Yes you're right-this team would be better with Streit. But not all that much.

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12-01-2010, 10:12 PM
  #64
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We will never be able to prove it, that we can all agree on...But what I truly believe, is that with Streit in the line-up we are near the 8th spot right now...that doesn't mean we would make the playoffs, it only means we would have had a shot at it (which doesn't look like we currently have)

Anyways, we will see how things go in the games to come, and also how it will change when Streit returns towards the end of the season..(Hopefully, we'll be back in the playoff race by then...)

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12-01-2010, 11:15 PM
  #65
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With a healthy Streit, Okposo, and D-core we wouldn't be nearly bad as we are right now, I think we'd certainly finish better than last season. Don't see why thats hard to see, I think this team, when healthy, is much better on paper than the teams of two years past.

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12-01-2010, 11:41 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Islanderfan17 View Post
With a healthy Streit, Okposo, and D-core we wouldn't be nearly bad as we are right now, I think we'd certainly finish better than last season. Don't see why thats hard to see, I think this team, when healthy, is much better on paper than the teams of two years past.
You are insane. Two players do not make that big of a difference, unless maybe if it is Ovechkin or Crosby. Lets remember we are talking about Kyle Okposo. I love KO but the guy has never scored more than 23 goals and if he was on any other team, they would be talking about being without a third liner for the first three months of the season, not their best forward.

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12-01-2010, 11:49 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by darkmoon1106 View Post
the way i see it it breaks down into a few basic problems.

#1. Scoring
-Moulson and Tavares on pace for about 30 goals this year, not bad. the next highest goal scorer is Grabner, who is on pace for about 21 goals. not one other player is on pace for 20 goals, and the likelihood of Grabner getting 20 is questionable. lately, the team hasn't been able to score more than 2 goals in most games. this must change. Lets not forget Kyle being out, who knows how well he would've done this season?

#2. Defense
-With Streit out and injuries from Juricina, Hillen, Macdonald, Mattau, Gervais, that is bad. Wisniewski was playing very well at the start of the season, but he can't do it all. This leaves it up to AHL players to fill in for the job of NHLers, and no one can do any good with that.

#3. Lack of Leadership
-Our captain gets repeatedly scratched. I've heard rumors that he turned the young players against Gordon because he was angry about his playing time. Rumors. No real vets on this team to show the young guys what to do.

#4. Bad Ownership
-Much to be said for Mr. Wang. This summer, many people were fired and not replaced. One of these people includes Ryan Jankowski, the assistant GM. He had helped Garth with his very detailed scouting reports to perform drafts that have been widely respected throughout the hockey world. We now have no assistant GM because Wang wants to save some money and go by central scouting. Understandable, yet foolish IMO. He has refused to let Snow put any money into the team, keeping us at the cap floor thanks to Yashin. All Snow can do is draft young talent, sign cheap players, and do his best to trade with virtually nothing.


if anyone disagrees with me or feels i left something out, i am open minded
I agree with all your points ESPECIALLY #4.....ADD TO THAT he raises tix prices....you don't do that....if you want to narrow your loses especially now were he's getting more of the rev from that horrible lease....you lower tix prices to get more people in the place..make more money off the concessions etc..have a some what filled building, a positive atmoshere or try to build one ..instead he raises prices , the cheapest seat $30..r u kidding me..and now if somebody that might of wanted to go to a game even though the isles suck now doesn't because they were priced out. I swear...most call it imcompentence ..I'm starting to believe sabatoge..u can't be that stupid.say want u want about garth.....he been handcuffed by wang

by the way all....forbes came out with all the values, revenues,tv ratings ..a whole slew of financial data of every team in the league..should check it out

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12-02-2010, 02:05 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
You are insane. Two players do not make that big of a difference, unless maybe if it is Ovechkin or Crosby. Lets remember we are talking about Kyle Okposo. I love KO but the guy has never scored more than 23 goals and if he was on any other team, they would be talking about being without a third liner for the first three months of the season, not their best forward.
I know they aren't the best players, but they fill holes and make others around them better. It's an overall boost to the team, and lets not forget how our decent defense to start the season was entirely decimated by injuries.

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