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Best Playmaker Wingers of All Time

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Old
12-01-2010, 04:03 PM
  #26
Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by lextune View Post
1. Howe
2. Lafleur
3. Jagr
Those seem to be the consenus top 3, although I think you can make an argument for Jagr over Lafleur for the #2 spot.

Also, I have not seen much of him, but by the numbers Bathgate looks to be a pretty clear #4. Do those that have seen him agree?

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Old
12-01-2010, 04:10 PM
  #27
Merya
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Maybe Pnep has a statgraph for us so that this can become a more educated discussion. It'd at least give people idea about which past players to read up on.
Pnep, please?

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Old
12-01-2010, 04:15 PM
  #28
Merya
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Kariya
Just because Kariya had one of the best snipers/players of the time in his opposite wing doesn't make him an all time great playmaker at wing. It's crazy how overrated Kariya is and Selšnne so underrated. Ask Paul himself. (I only asked his brother)

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Old
12-01-2010, 04:28 PM
  #29
WilliamRanford
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Here is career assists per game, which is one thing to look at to adjudge overall playmaking ability, rather than the ratio of assists to goals, which is better suited to label someone a 'playmaker winger'

1 Jaromir Jagr 0.75
2 Guy Lafleur* 0.7
3 Mark Messier* 0.68
4 Jari Kurri* 0.64
5 Daniel Alfredsson 0.61
6 Mark Recchi 0.59
7 Gordie Howe* 0.59
8 Rod Gilbert* 0.58
9 Andy Bathgate* 0.58
10 Theoren Fleury 0.58
11 Steve Larmer 0.57
12 Brian Propp 0.57
13 Dave Taylor 0.57
14 Michel Goulet* 0.55
15 Teemu Selanne 0.55
16 Rick Middleton 0.54
17 Joe Mullen* 0.53
18 Bobby Hull* 0.53
19 Glenn Anderson* 0.53
20 John Bucyk* 0.53
21 Ray Whitney 0.51
22 Brett Hull* 0.51
23 Luc Robitaille* 0.51
24 Wayne Cashman 0.5
25 John Tonelli 0.5

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Old
12-01-2010, 04:38 PM
  #30
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You could also use the 'adjusted assists' stat ... I've done a quick compilation and I believe the top 6 for adjusted assists per game for their careers are:

Jaromir Jagr 0.787902592
Gordie Howe* 0.71590266
Daniel Alfredsson 0.670886076
Mark Recchi 0.617074702
Teemu Selanne 0.616211745
Guy Lafleur* 0.604795737

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Old
12-01-2010, 04:47 PM
  #31
Malefic74
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
and again people confuse assists with actual playmaking. Seventies list is good one though and pretty much sums the best ones up.
Agree this is one area where stats are at best a guide but do not tell the whole story. Often assists come from being the original shot on goal and if the someone scores on the rebound, instant assist; which is likely a big reason why the big goal scorers get a lot of assists too.

None of which makes them playmakers. I think a better thread title would be:

Best Passing Wingers of All Time.

Lafleur, Jagr and Howe would be there.

Underrated: Dave Taylor, Joe Mullen and Brian Propp

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Old
12-01-2010, 06:06 PM
  #32
lextune
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When I said:

1. Howe
2. LaFleur
3. Jagr

I was specifically referring to "playmaking" rather than just "passing".

....and it is the correct answer.


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Old
12-01-2010, 10:22 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamRanford View Post
You could also use the 'adjusted assists' stat ... I've done a quick compilation and I believe the top 6 for adjusted assists per game for their careers are:

Jaromir Jagr 0.787902592
Gordie Howe* 0.71590266
Daniel Alfredsson 0.670886076
Mark Recchi 0.617074702
Teemu Selanne 0.616211745
Guy Lafleur* 0.604795737
Wow liking where Alfredsson is in this stat!

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Old
12-01-2010, 11:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Wow liking where Alfredsson is in this stat!
And Recchi too, after 1600+ games.

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Old
12-01-2010, 11:54 PM
  #35
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It's numbers like that that make me think Alfie should be a lock for the HHOF. And I also think Jagr is underrated by most, and should jump up dramatically in the next HOH 100. He's pretty far out in front of this measure.

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Old
12-02-2010, 02:31 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
Where do the great Soviets like Kharlamov, Firsov, and Makarov rank?
Based on numbers, Firsov was more of a goal-scoring guy than Kharlamov and Makarov. Then again, they didn't necessarily count 2nd assists - or counted them only at the end of his career - when Firsov was playing.
At least in his last season on the National team (1971-72), he was used as a (in soccer terms) 'midfielder' on a line with Kharlamov and Vikulov (de facto forwards), where he would concentrate more on defense and playmaking rather than goal-scoring. The line was hugely succesful during the short time they were together. This would suggest that he had the versatility.

I'd rank Kharlamov and Makarov fairly highly; they were the ones (at their peak) who would often carry the puck into the offensive zone and the ones who the opponent really needed more than one player to defend against, thus creating room for their linemates. They were good passers too; both had easily more career assists than goals. If they were not on the Lafleur level, then somewhat below.

Some other USSR 'playmaking wingers' worth to mention: Maltsev (played C too), Vikulov, Khomutov, Lebedev (maybe first and foremost a defensive winger, though?)...


Last edited by VMBM: 12-02-2010 at 02:41 AM.
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Old
12-02-2010, 08:42 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Based on numbers, Firsov was more of a goal-scoring guy than Kharlamov and Makarov. Then again, they didn't necessarily count 2nd assists - or counted them only at the end of his career - when Firsov was playing.
At least in his last season on the National team (1971-72), he was used as a (in soccer terms) 'midfielder' on a line with Kharlamov and Vikulov (de facto forwards), where he would concentrate more on defense and playmaking rather than goal-scoring. The line was hugely succesful during the short time they were together. This would suggest that he had the versatility.

I'd rank Kharlamov and Makarov fairly highly; they were the ones (at their peak) who would often carry the puck into the offensive zone and the ones who the opponent really needed more than one player to defend against, thus creating room for their linemates. They were good passers too; both had easily more career assists than goals. If they were not on the Lafleur level, then somewhat below.

Some other USSR 'playmaking wingers' worth to mention: Maltsev (played C too), Vikulov, Khomutov, Lebedev (maybe first and foremost a defensive winger, though?)...
Indeed, Karlamov and Firsov were great playmakers. I think Kharlamov makes the top 5.

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Old
12-02-2010, 09:35 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Malefic74 View Post
Agree this is one area where stats are at best a guide but do not tell the whole story. Often assists come from being the original shot on goal and if the someone scores on the rebound, instant assist; which is likely a big reason why the big goal scorers get a lot of assists too.

None of which makes them playmakers. I think a better thread title would be:

Best Passing Wingers of All Time.

Lafleur, Jagr and Howe would be there.

Underrated: Dave Taylor, Joe Mullen and Brian Propp
Doesn't the fact that the original shot maker created a situation where a goal could be scored in fact make them a playmaker?

The play wasn't created in a void.

After all, how many goals are the result of direct passing and how many are the result of scrums, rebounds, tips, etc.

Why is one method considered playmaking and not another?

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Old
12-02-2010, 10:37 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by brianscot View Post
Doesn't the fact that the original shot maker created a situation where a goal could be scored in fact make them a playmaker?

The play wasn't created in a void.

After all, how many goals are the result of direct passing and how many are the result of scrums, rebounds, tips, etc.

Why is one method considered playmaking and not another?
I kind of agree with this thinking.

Sure the rebounds aren't as pretty but they count the same.

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Old
12-02-2010, 11:51 AM
  #40
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McDonald also made me think about a lot of things that I hadn't realized before.

"If you get into this position," he'd say, pointing to a spot on the ice, "it doesn't matter if I'm wide open around the net because I'm in perfect position for a rebound. So don't pass, shoot instead. Let me go for the rebound."

It was sensible to figure the player near the net was always in better position than I was, so the thing to do was pass the puck to him. I hadn't thought so much about anticipating the rebound as a play itself or the fact that his angle on the side of the net might be worse than mine.
- I Play To Win, Stan Mikita

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Old
12-02-2010, 12:21 PM
  #41
vadim sharifijanov
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unlike his brother, he's not an assists king. but i wonder if they are able to keep up their 80-100 point pace for a few more years whether we'll look back at this era and talk about daniel sedin as one of the top playmaking wingers.

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Old
12-02-2010, 12:38 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by WilliamRanford View Post
The way I'd look at this one is who had the largest ratio of assists to goals. I'm taking the top 300 wingers in assists (roughly anyone with more than 200 career assists), and sorting them by Assists / Goals. The top 50 wingers by this metric are:

Rank Player A/G A
1 Ales Hemsky 2.5 262
2 Bert Olmstead* 2.3 421
3 Dennis Hextall 2.3 350
4 Andre Boudrias 2.3 340
5 Alex Tanguay 2.1 429
6 Chico Maki 2.0 292
7 Frank St. Marseille 2.0 285
8 Pat Flatley 2.0 340
9 Niklas Sundstrom 2.0 232
10 Terry O'Reilly 2.0 402
11 Kelly Buchberger 1.9 204
12 Mike Johnson 1.9 246
13 Bobby Rousseau 1.9 458
14 Sergei Makarov 1.9 250
15 Martin Erat 1.9 233
16 Doug Mohns 1.9 462
17 Wayne Cashman 1.9 516
18 Murray Craven 1.9 493
19 Tim Ecclestone 1.8 233
20 Phil Watson 1.8 265
21 Bengt-Ake Gustafsson 1.8 359
22 David Vyborny 1.8 204
23 Mike Keane 1.8 302
24 Andy Bathgate* 1.8 624
25 Ian Laperriere 1.8 215
26 Andrew Brunette 1.8 429
27 Aaron Broten 1.8 329
28 Mark Messier* 1.7 1193
29 Ray Whitney 1.7 558
30 Dallas Drake 1.7 300
31 Kirk Muller 1.7 602
32 Tommy Williams 1.7 269
33 Craig Ramsay 1.7 420
34 Jamie Langenbrunner 1.7 384
35 Mark Recchi 1.6 933
36 Daniel Alfredsson 1.6 627
37 Don Maloney 1.6 350
38 Jim Peplinski 1.6 263
39 Scott Walker 1.6 246
40 Bill Fairbairn 1.6 261
41 Daniel Sedin 1.6 353
42 Dave Barr 1.6 204
43 Cory Stillman 1.6 427
44 Esa Tikkanen 1.6 386
45 Justin Williams 1.6 227
46 Jim Fox 1.6 293
47 John Tonelli 1.6 511
48 Stan Smyl 1.6 411
49 Steve Sullivan 1.6 411
50 Martin St. Louis 1.6 433
This list is meaningless IMO because it rewards people for being poor goal scorers more so than being great playmakers. Gretzky is without a doubt the greatest playmaker of all time, and would come well below Hemsky on this list just because he could score goals too. This list implies that if, for example, Alex Tanguay scored a few less goals in his career, he'd somehow be a better playmaker, which is clearly not the case. If you want to say "someone must have a ratio of at least 1.3 goals:assists to be considered a playmaking winger," that's fine, but to use this ratio as a way to rank players is wrong.

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Old
12-02-2010, 01:51 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianscot View Post
Doesn't the fact that the original shot maker created a situation where a goal could be scored in fact make them a playmaker?

The play wasn't created in a void.

After all, how many goals are the result of direct passing and how many are the result of scrums, rebounds, tips, etc.

Why is one method considered playmaking and not another?
I suppose it's only in the way one defines "play-making."

I'll concede the point that many goals are created by the original shooter and that some players shoot for certain areas to create rebounds, but in my mind there are so many variables to those situations that it seems difficult to say something was intentional.

Sure a shot on goal may result in a rebound which leads to a goal, but it could just as easily be saved with no rebound, be deflected away, or the other player could be out of position for the rebound. Whereas with an intentional pass to set up another player for a goal is a better indication of a player's passing or playmaking abilities.

I'm sure many goals have been scored off of a rebound on a Brett Hull shot, but that does not make him a playmaker, whereas Brian Propp drawing in defenders to dish to Tim Kerr does.

I suppose then to answer your question is "intent." Are you trying to set up a teammate or just getting the puck on net?

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Old
12-02-2010, 01:52 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianscot View Post
Doesn't the fact that the original shot maker created a situation where a goal could be scored in fact make them a playmaker?

The play wasn't created in a void.

After all, how many goals are the result of direct passing and how many are the result of scrums, rebounds, tips, etc.

Why is one method considered playmaking and not another?
Playmaking is making a play and a rebound is not making a play. Not to me anyway but a shot pass is making a play.

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Old
12-02-2010, 03:31 PM
  #45
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Jaromir Jagr and Gordie Howe

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