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"Death Star Canteen" 12.01.10 Predators at Blue Jackets

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Old
12-02-2010, 11:52 AM
  #126
gopreds19
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Originally Posted by David Singleton View Post
Erat had a better game than I've seen from him in a long time. It was a fairly solid night for him.
Meh, he made a nice pass on the SK goal, but it appeared that the 4-on-4 goal was his fault since he got beat down the slot by the CBJ player. Rinne was pissed, and yelled something at Erat as he was getting up from the ice down by the boards. Suter abandoned the crease to chase a player on the side wall opening up the slot, but Erat's got to be aware that someone may streak down wide open on Rinne.

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12-02-2010, 11:59 AM
  #127
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Roseyc, I think having three defensemen out on 4-on-4 situations wouldn't help our team. We don't have the fastest defense anymore, and with the difference in amount of skating between forwards and defensemen you risk running one out of gas that late in the game, thus risking odd-man rushes. Typically minutes will be given to Weber, Suter, and Klein. Then you're left with SOB, Cube, Franson. With Weber and Suter getting regular shifts in an OT period, and Klein/Bouillon probably eating some minutes, too, you're left with Franson and SOB. Either you put one of the top minute eaters in a forward position and wear him out, or you trust one of the slow guys (or Bouillon, who isn't a speed demon himself) to play forward.

We just have to find a way to clog up the extra ice with what we have, or try to avoid OT all together.

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12-02-2010, 01:43 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Preds Partisan View Post
Peks obviously did a good job of keeping the Preds in the game through that first period. I saw a stat last night that surprised me...maybe somebody can confirm. It said that from the 2008-09 season, Peks is leading the NHL in SO's. Is that really true over these two and a quarter seasons?
Yes, I believe it was:

Rinne - 17
S. Mason/Brodeur - 16
Vokoun - 15

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12-02-2010, 02:33 PM
  #129
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I think what gets lost in my assessment of Trotz is his style of defense first/pick up the point as opposed to none doesn't translate to the playoffs. I see the point in getting points in the regular season but if you play that way all the time, when it's do or die in the playoffs, you can't play like that. It's win or go home. Regular season you lose you get to come back another night and play. It's a mentality that bothers me. Sorry if it rubs people the wrong way with what I'm saying but the culture has to change for us to get ahead come playoff time.

Now if Dumont and Hornqvist were truly nursing health issues, one thing should've happened, call ups from Milwaukee to take either one or both of their places in the lineup. Didn't we deal with this earlier in the year against Detroit and we basically played with 16 guys, 5 of which were defensemen? Did we not learn from that mistake?

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12-02-2010, 03:01 PM
  #130
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I'm sorry Glen but it does. If you have the players to go out and try and win the game then you might have a point. We currently don't have talent to go heads up against a Nash line. We do have the talent to shut him down and that's exactly what he did. The shift chart shows he didn't completely back down. He had our best players for the situation out there.

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12-02-2010, 03:55 PM
  #131
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Also, joining in late. I am a fan of Poile and Trotz. I am not in either ‘fire him’ camp. However, I do agree with Glenngineer that Trotz coaches defensively.
I think I finally accepted Trotz’s conservative nature during the Phoenix, LA, Anaheim trip. It wasn’t how Trotz ended those games – it was how he started every period. When he could send any line out to start each period and have the other team match it, Trotz sent the Legwand line out 9 times out of 9. So, it didn’t matter whether he was home matching another team’s choice or on the road and able to at least make some attempt to set the tone – he went with the shutdown line first. I know that because at the time I was getting a little frustrated at a few things and looked at the data to confirm some numbers and that stood out to me. I haven’t followed it too much since – acceptance is trying to win out.

But I have to admit I have definitely noticed and gotten frustrated with the lines late in games, also. Take the St. Louis game at home last week. The last 52 seconds of the game the Preds had Smithson, Ward and Spaling on the ice. Even when the puck was in the St. Louis zone and the face off was to the left of Halak and they could have switched lines to have one last go at it – they did not. Not saying Ward, Smitty and Spaling couldn’t score. Smithson did earlier in the game. Just that it wouldn’t be my first choice to try and score to win in regulation and keep the extra point away from St. Louis. Of course, in the end, St. Louis got 2 points. (And of course, my first choice – matters not at all.) I can understand the conservative approach somewhat – given games we’ve blown in the last minute in 2010. Still, as a fan, it feels like they are playing not to lose instead of to win.

As for the line changes – the Preds have won two games. Wilson and Kostitsyn have scored – so good. I definitely want to see those two get going. I, do, however hope that Hörnqvist is sick or nursing some slight ache – because I hope he hasn’t been relegated to the fourth line and 7 or less minutes of even strength play like the last two games. I am surprised 101st mentioned that he didn’t play in overtime as supporting evidence that he might not be well – Trotz does not play Hörnqvist in 4x4 - in regulation or in overtime – not this year – not last year. Patric is 7th in both, T TOI/G and ES TOI/G, among forwards. Based on TOI, he does not play on our top line, or even the top two. I just hope he hasn’t fallen to 4th line. He does lead PP TOI among forwards. Hopefully, Trotz won’t take him off the top PP unit.

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12-02-2010, 04:00 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
I'm sorry Glen but it does. If you have the players to go out and try and win the game then you might have a point. We currently don't have talent to go heads up against a Nash line. We do have the talent to shut him down and that's exactly what he did. The shift chart shows he didn't completely back down. He had our best players for the situation out there.
I think you're not quite getting what I'm saying. This is not just about last night, it's in general and the pattern continues. While we don't have forwards who can shut down Nash, we have two defensemen that are pretty darn good and if you're smart, you always have one on the ice in the last 5, even if it means splitting them up. Anaheim did this when they had Pronger and Niedermayer. NJ did it with Stevens and Niedermayer. When you have two studs, you have one on the ice at all times if you can.

The other point of my contention was the PP and running out a checking line with 14 seconds to go right outside the offensive zone and a faceoff. If we win the faceoff we have a chance at setting something up and if we lose the faceoff, go for the quick line change and get your checking line out there. We give up so many opportunities like this game in and game out. It's 15 seconds here, 20 seconds there that cost this team points and wins and playoff victories. Also, how many too many men on the ice penalties are we gonna get this year? It seems like we're getting more of those than I remember.

I could go on and on and have but gonna stop here. I have more to say but I'm gonna save it for a nice long post over the weekend when I have the time to say all I need to say. I'm sure you're breathless in anticipation.

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12-02-2010, 04:02 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapp View Post
Also, joining in late. I am a fan of Poile and Trotz. I am not in either ‘fire him’ camp. However, I do agree with Glenngineer that Trotz coaches defensively.
I think I finally accepted Trotz’s conservative nature during the Phoenix, LA, Anaheim trip. It wasn’t how Trotz ended those games – it was how he started every period. When he could send any line out to start each period and have the other team match it, Trotz sent the Legwand line out 9 times out of 9. So, it didn’t matter whether he was home matching another team’s choice or on the road and able to at least make some attempt to set the tone – he went with the shutdown line first. I know that because at the time I was getting a little frustrated at a few things and looked at the data to confirm some numbers and that stood out to me. I haven’t followed it too much since – acceptance is trying to win out.

But I have to admit I have definitely noticed and gotten frustrated with the lines late in games, also. Take the St. Louis game at home last week. The last 52 seconds of the game the Preds had Smithson, Ward and Spaling on the ice. Even when the puck was in the St. Louis zone and the face off was to the left of Halak and they could have switched lines to have one last go at it – they did not. Not saying Ward, Smitty and Spaling couldn’t score. Smithson did earlier in the game. Just that it wouldn’t be my first choice to try and score to win in regulation and keep the extra point away from St. Louis. Of course, in the end, St. Louis got 2 points. (And of course, my first choice – matters not at all.) I can understand the conservative approach somewhat – given games we’ve blown in the last minute in 2010. Still, as a fan, it feels like they are playing not to lose instead of to win.

As for the line changes – the Preds have won two games. Wilson and Kostitsyn have scored – so good. I definitely want to see those two get going. I, do, however hope that Hörnqvist is sick or nursing some slight ache – because I hope he hasn’t been relegated to the fourth line and 7 or less minutes of even strength play like the last two games. I am surprised 101st mentioned that he didn’t play in overtime as supporting evidence that he might not be well – Trotz does not play Hörnqvist in 4x4 - in regulation or in overtime – not this year – not last year. Patric is 7th in both, T TOI/G and ES TOI/G, among forwards. Based on TOI, he does not play on our top line, or even the top two. I just hope he hasn’t fallen to 4th line. He does lead PP TOI among forwards. Hopefully, Trotz won’t take him off the top PP unit.
Hornqivst was banged up late in the 2nd period last night, so I don't know if that played a role in his limited ice time in the third period or not. We'll see the next couple days as the team returns to practice tomorrow in preparation for Saturday vs. Carolina.

You are right though, Trotz has never used Hornqvist in 4 on 4 situations. He just doesn't really have enough skill to play that game. It would be different if we had a star player that could carry the puck up ice and get shots to the net, but we don't yet...Patric does not create too much offense for himself, rather he uses his skills to do his magic when others put the puck on net...

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12-02-2010, 04:53 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Dave is a killer View Post
10-13-0 vs 11-8-5
Team record? i was just stating his individual stats....

And hes doing it on an "offensively worse" team than nashville

He would be leading our team in goals

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12-02-2010, 04:58 PM
  #135
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Team record? i was just stating his individual stats....

And hes doing it on an "offensively worse" team than nashville

He would be leading our team in goals
He's also doing it in the SE division where there is about as much defense as in *elmore's game.

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12-02-2010, 06:58 PM
  #136
jlsg
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I think you're not quite getting what I'm saying. This is not just about last night, it's in general and the pattern continues. While we don't have forwards who can shut down Nash, we have two defensemen that are pretty darn good and if you're smart, you always have one on the ice in the last 5, even if it means splitting them up. Anaheim did this when they had Pronger and Niedermayer. NJ did it with Stevens and Niedermayer. When you have two studs, you have one on the ice at all times if you can.

The other point of my contention was the PP and running out a checking line with 14 seconds to go right outside the offensive zone and a faceoff. If we win the faceoff we have a chance at setting something up and if we lose the faceoff, go for the quick line change and get your checking line out there. We give up so many opportunities like this game in and game out. It's 15 seconds here, 20 seconds there that cost this team points and wins and playoff victories. Also, how many too many men on the ice penalties are we gonna get this year? It seems like we're getting more of those than I remember.

I could go on and on and have but gonna stop here. I have more to say but I'm gonna save it for a nice long post over the weekend when I have the time to say all I need to say. I'm sure you're breathless in anticipation.
I understand exactly what you're saying. I was using last night as the example, but the point is if you don't have the horses to put out there you're setting your team up for failure. I've coached teams that were not as skilled as other teams and that's how you win the games, keep their big guns off the scoreboard. That's what evens the playing field. Given this current team I don't know many coaches that would have played the lines much different.

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12-02-2010, 07:20 PM
  #137
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one thing we keep forgetting is this club is still two premium (for this team at least) centers from the squad it was meant to ice at this point. Yes, depth was supposed to be a strength, but nobody expected to lose Lombardi in game 2, or have Leggy out concurrently. I also don't think Erat is playing at fill capacity, although he is nearing it finally.

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12-03-2010, 07:09 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Tapp View Post
I think I finally accepted Trotz’s conservative nature during the Phoenix, LA, Anaheim trip. It wasn’t how Trotz ended those games – it was how he started every period. When he could send any line out to start each period and have the other team match it, Trotz sent the Legwand line out 9 times out of 9. So, it didn’t matter whether he was home matching another team’s choice or on the road and able to at least make some attempt to set the tone – he went with the shutdown line first.
Not sure I understand your objection. Would you have preferred that Trotz send out Sully/Hornqvist/O'Reilly and then the Ducks put out their first line and then we be outmatched in trying to defend them? Granted the Ducks might have been scared at the offensive prowess of our line and responded with their shutdown line. If I were the Ducks coach and Trotz did that, I'd wonder what was wrong with Trotz and send out my best to score.

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12-03-2010, 07:58 AM
  #139
David Singleton
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
I understand exactly what you're saying. I was using last night as the example, but the point is if you don't have the horses to put out there you're setting your team up for failure. I've coached teams that were not as skilled as other teams and that's how you win the games, keep their big guns off the scoreboard. That's what evens the playing field. Given this current team I don't know many coaches that would have played the lines much different.
Jay, I find this a fascinating dilemma for a coach.

> To win the game, you have to score goals.

> Yet, when the opposition plays their superstar players (essentially as often as possible), you play your best defensive line to minimize the chance they score.

> This, in turn, increases the playing time for your defensively skilled players and reduces the playing time for your offensively skilled players.

> Which can quickly result in you not being able to score goals because your offensively skilled players do not get typical ES ice time for those types of players on other teams.

> Of course, this puts a premium on two things: an effective power play in order to maximize those offensive players' ice time and two-way players that could play against an opponent's top players defensively, yet still be relied upon to score.


Trotz's solution to this during camp (in a discussion he had with me) was to run three scoring lines with two of those being two-way lines that he'd "have no qualms putting on the ice against anyone". This seems like a great strategy provided you have enough two-way players to form those two lines.

Of course, even before the injury to Lombardi, Trotz departed from that strategy without even testing it by starting the Anaheim game with 25-11-29 on the ice after they had gone through an entire training camp practicing a different role.

Could he go back to that today?

Good two-way players: Legwand, Goc, Wilson
Decent two-way players: Erat, Kostitsyn, Ward, Hornqvist, O'Reilly


I might be comfortable with icing Wilson-Goc-Hornqvist-Suter-Weber in any EV situation, even at the end of game- if we were to look at it in a vacuum and forget the impact to the other lines.

If we were to look at the other lines, maybe...

Sullivan-O'Reilly-Dumont
Erat-Legwand-Kostitsyn
Wilson-Goc-Hornqvist
Tootoo-Spaling-Smithson/Ward

I kinda like that. I'd be pretty comfortable putting the Legwand like out there too.

I will note that I think he has gone back to his original (meaning training camp) strategy to a degree. By putting Tootoo and Smithson back on the fourth line, he's giving his offensive players a better chance in that they now have some linemates with better offensive skills. His use of a shutdown line has been more situational lately. Legwand's return (and his defensive game being better than most on this team) may see a return to having a single shutdown line- something in which I do not favor as defense hasn't been the most pressing issue for this team beyond the random game.

Regardless, it's definitely a dilemma for Trotz and his staff. Increasing the effectiveness of the power play would go a long way towards providing a little release of the pressure.


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12-03-2010, 08:29 AM
  #140
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You're right about one thing David, it is a dilemma
One of the reasons defense hasn't been a problem is because we field the shutdown line out against the other teams top line. That strategy worked very well for us last year. I like the idea of balance as much as any other coach would as long as you have the players to pull it off. My fear with this team is we'll start losing a lot of 2-1, 3-2 games instead of winning them. This team has to get scoring from everyone. We don't have a 40-50 goal guy on the team, we need to have several 20 goal guys and right now we only have a couple that project out to that kind of year. Therefore Trotz is having to play to the strength of the team and that's to win the 2-1, 3-2 games and not get into a high scoring, high flying contest. We lose that game every time.
When PK and Forsberg we here he had that kind of high output team and used it that way. We were winning game 5-3 and 6-5. We had 3 legit scoring lines and he used them that way, daring someone to go goal to goal with us. No way we play that style with this team, if we do we end up with the #1 draft spot next summer and a goalie tandem that will need therapy.

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12-03-2010, 08:47 AM
  #141
David Singleton
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You're right about one thing David, it is a dilemma
One of the reasons defense hasn't been a problem is because we field the shutdown line out against the other teams top line. That strategy worked very well for us last year. I like the idea of balance as much as any other coach would as long as you have the players to pull it off. My fear with this team is we'll start losing a lot of 2-1, 3-2 games instead of winning them. This team has to get scoring from everyone. We don't have a 40-50 goal guy on the team, we need to have several 20 goal guys and right now we only have a couple that project out to that kind of year. Therefore Trotz is having to play to the strength of the team and that's to win the 2-1, 3-2 games and not get into a high scoring, high flying contest. We lose that game every time.
When PK and Forsberg we here he had that kind of high output team and used it that way. We were winning game 5-3 and 6-5. We had 3 legit scoring lines and he used them that way, daring someone to go goal to goal with us. No way we play that style with this team, if we do we end up with the #1 draft spot next summer and a goalie tandem that will need therapy.
Well, at least I got one thing right- and in writing no less. I can finally prove to my wife that I'm not always wrong.

I will note that since we've shifted to more of a no-shutdown-line approach (starting with the last game against Carolina), defense has not been a consistent issue either, scoring still has. Nashville has gone 3-2-2 in that stretch and have given up more than two goals only twice (the loss to Minnesota and the win over Columbus). On the other hand, Nashville scored more than two goals only twice- the last two wins versus Phoenix and Columbus.

That said, I understand what you're saying. I'm still of the belief, however, that this team has enough quality two-way players to only ice a dedicated shutdown line very situationally. Given the scoring woes, both at EV and on the PP, Trotz may be forced to at least try his training camp plans even more so than he's done lately.

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12-03-2010, 10:49 AM
  #142
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If I'm the DeadThings and I can ice PDs line, then yes, I have a 1st line quality offense that can play defense; when I'm the Nashville Predators and I ice Orly/Sully/Horny, not only is that not really a #1 offensive line (compared to the league standard) but also not a very good defensive line, except maybe Orly (who is undersized). Look at who plays our PK - see any of our Fs? Ward. All our Cs. Last spot kinda' switches around - Sully playing some this year, Marty in past. So, you can ice 2 of our Cs and Marty, or perhaps Leggy and Marty and Sully and have decent O possibilities and decent D, cept Leggy is hurt and Marty really has not been playing well.

I don't disagree about the observations about Trotz playing it conservatively, but I'm with the guys that say it actually is our best chance to win. Roll Smitty and the boys against their #1, then counter with our best against their 2nd best, and our 2nd best against their 3rd - that's our best chance to win, IMHO.

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12-03-2010, 11:15 AM
  #143
David Singleton
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Originally Posted by deanwormer View Post
If I'm the DeadThings and I can ice PDs line, then yes, I have a 1st line quality offense that can play defense; when I'm the Nashville Predators and I ice Orly/Sully/Horny, not only is that not really a #1 offensive line (compared to the league standard) but also not a very good defensive line, except maybe Orly (who is undersized). Look at who plays our PK - see any of our Fs? Ward. All our Cs. Last spot kinda' switches around - Sully playing some this year, Marty in past. So, you can ice 2 of our Cs and Marty, or perhaps Leggy and Marty and Sully and have decent O possibilities and decent D, cept Leggy is hurt and Marty really has not been playing well.

I don't disagree about the observations about Trotz playing it conservatively, but I'm with the guys that say it actually is our best chance to win. Roll Smitty and the boys against their #1, then counter with our best against their 2nd best, and our 2nd best against their 3rd - that's our best chance to win, IMHO.
I don't think the overall consensus is to throw Sullivan-O'Reilly-Hornqvist out there against a top line (although that sentiment has been expressed some).

When that line was together (and it's not right now), it was considered our #1 scoring line yes (in Predator terms), but it was never considered a two-way line.

What I'd like to see is one of those legitimate two-way lines that Trotz "would have no qualms playing against any other line" be given the consistent opportunity to play together in most game situations.

I'll grant the occasional protecting-a-two-goal-lead-with-five-minutes-left situation for a shutdown line (and other similar situations) to be iced.

That said, starting with the Carolina game on 11/20, Trotz has done just that for the most part. He's not seeing the offensive results that I think he'd like to see from the three new scoring lines just yet. His energy line of Tootoo, Smithson and Ward has been very good however.

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12-03-2010, 01:37 PM
  #144
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Roseyc, I think having three defensemen out on 4-on-4 situations wouldn't help our team. We don't have the fastest defense anymore, and with the difference in amount of skating between forwards and defensemen you risk running one out of gas that late in the game, thus risking odd-man rushes. Typically minutes will be given to Weber, Suter, and Klein. Then you're left with SOB, Cube, Franson. With Weber and Suter getting regular shifts in an OT period, and Klein/Bouillon probably eating some minutes, too, you're left with Franson and SOB. Either you put one of the top minute eaters in a forward position and wear him out, or you trust one of the slow guys (or Bouillon, who isn't a speed demon himself) to play forward.

We just have to find a way to clog up the extra ice with what we have, or try to avoid OT all together.
I'm just saying for one shift your acting like it's for the entire OT. Remember this is 4 on 4 for 5 minutes. So far the other combinations haven't worked. It's called imagination and Trotz certainly doesn't have it and your buying what he's saying

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12-03-2010, 04:11 PM
  #145
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Not sure I understand your objection. Would you have preferred that Trotz send out Sully/Hornqvist/O'Reilly and then the Ducks put out their first line and then we be outmatched in trying to defend them? Granted the Ducks might have been scared at the offensive prowess of our line and responded with their shutdown line. If I were the Ducks coach and Trotz did that, I'd wonder what was wrong with Trotz and send out my best to score.
Lstcyr – since we were on the road the home team got to match lines. So, if the Ducks wanted the Getzlaf, Perry, O’Ryan line on the O’Reilly line it didn’t matter whether the O’Reilly line started each period or not. Putting the shutdown line out first had no impact on that. In fact, the Getzlaf line did not start any of the three periods. They were, however, put out when the O’Reilly line came on the ice for their first shift in both the first and third periods.

When Trotz starts the shutdown line on the road, the only thing I can think of is Trotz’ objective is to keep the other team’s top line from starting the period with hopes of limiting their ice time assuming the other team won’t play their top line against the Preds shutdown line. But at the same time, he is potentially limiting his top scoring line’s chances, too. And he certainly, in my mind, is not showing confidence in his scoring lines (such as they are – they are still what we have). To me that is defensive coaching – which is why I used it as an example of why I agree with Gleengineer that Trotz is a defense first coach. Even on the road – even to start a game. I try to accept that – so I can enjoy the games – without so much frustration.

BTW – that early in the season the O’Reilly line was doing pretty good – certainly the best offensive line we had at the time. In fact, in the Ducks game, you used as an example, the O’Reilly line had 3 goals – 1 for each of the guys. Two of the goals were against the Getzlaf line. The Getzlaf line did not score on the O’Reilly line – although Hörnqvist was mysteriously credited with being on the ice for the Ducks first goal – when his line was not out before, during or after the goal. The Preds lost the game 5-4.

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12-03-2010, 04:44 PM
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Lstcyr – since we were on the road the home team got to match lines. So, if the Ducks wanted the Getzlaf, Perry, O’Ryan line on the O’Reilly line it didn’t matter whether the O’Reilly line started each period or not. Putting the shutdown line out first had no impact on that. In fact, the Getzlaf line did not start any of the three periods. They were, however, put out when the O’Reilly line came on the ice for their first shift in both the first and third periods.

When Trotz starts the shutdown line on the road, the only thing I can think of is Trotz’ objective is to keep the other team’s top line from starting the period with hopes of limiting their ice time assuming the other team won’t play their top line against the Preds shutdown line. But at the same time, he is potentially limiting his top scoring line’s chances, too. And he certainly, in my mind, is not showing confidence in his scoring lines (such as they are – they are still what we have). To me that is defensive coaching – which is why I used it as an example of why I agree with Gleengineer that Trotz is a defense first coach. Even on the road – even to start a game. I try to accept that – so I can enjoy the games – without so much frustration.

BTW – that early in the season the O’Reilly line was doing pretty good – certainly the best offensive line we had at the time. In fact, in the Ducks game, you used as an example, the O’Reilly line had 3 goals – 1 for each of the guys. Two of the goals were against the Getzlaf line. The Getzlaf line did not score on the O’Reilly line – although Hörnqvist was mysteriously credited with being on the ice for the Ducks first goal – when his line was not out before, during or after the goal. The Preds lost the game 5-4.
I understand your point better now. Thanks. I think it was a better move on Trotz's part but it is a more defensive mindset - which, of course, is your point. I don't have as much of a problem with that way of managing the game/team at this time as others do.

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12-03-2010, 10:56 PM
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When Trotz starts the shutdown line on the road, the only thing I can think of is Trotz’ objective is to keep the other team’s top line from starting the period with hopes of limiting their ice time assuming the other team won’t play their top line against the Preds shutdown line. But at the same time, he is potentially limiting his top scoring line’s chances, too. And he certainly, in my mind, is not showing confidence in his scoring lines (such as they are – they are still what we have). To me that is defensive coaching – which is why I used it as an example of why I agree with Gleengineer that Trotz is a defense first coach. Even on the road – even to start a game. I try to accept that – so I can enjoy the games – without so much frustration.
Very thoughtful post but I don't see the logic in knocking Trotz for this. His actions state the obvious: our top line is not better than the other team's top line (as your parenthetical acknowledges, at least implicitly).

Is there a team that we have played this season that had a worse top line than us in terms of raw talent? I can't think of it. The fact that Sully-CalO-Horny even is our top line wasn't remotely obvious at the start of the season. To add insult to injury, they also are worse DEFENSIVELY than a lot of top lines, so the relative disparity is even larger.

If the other team has a better top line (which virtually everyone does), and they want to play it against our top line (which they frequently do), Trotz is playing the odds absolutely correctly by limiting the ice time of both top lines. Our offensive advantage (assuming we have one) is depth of scoring so he is playing to our strength such that it is.

To say Trotz is "not showing confidence in the scoring lines" is correct but it is not the negative that you suggest it is. Trotz doesn't let Horny into the shootout-- is he not showing confidence in his top line winger or is making the correct decision that his best odds of winning lie with Marcel Goc or Martin Erat?

Now you can enjoy the game in secure in the knowledge that Trotz is not a dunce but rather is in the unacknowledged fruit of a long-since-forgotten Scotty Bowman indiscretion.

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12-04-2010, 01:45 AM
  #148
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Hey – I hope I haven’t “knocked” Trotz. As I said in my first post in this thread I am a fan of Trotz (and Poile). I certainly don’t think that Trotz is a dunce - just a defensive minded coach .

His decisions don’t always coincide with my preferences and biases as a fan. I never said that made him wrong. I said it made me frustrated which I am trying to overcome. (However, if Hörnqvist has truly been relegated to 7 minutes of ES time a game and is now just a “screener” as Sully described him in the last postgame – there will be no overcoming that frustration .)

In all seriousness, I have great respect for Trotz. I try to understand his decisions. And I try to reflect that when I post. If my posts sound like I am “knocking Trotz” or that I think he is a dunce then I have failed to communicate what I was trying to communicate.

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12-04-2010, 02:00 AM
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Very thoughtful post but I don't see the logic in knocking Trotz for this. His actions state the obvious: our top line is not better than the other team's top line (as your parenthetical acknowledges, at least implicitly).

Is there a team that we have played this season that had a worse top line than us in terms of raw talent? I can't think of it. The fact that Sully-CalO-Horny even is our top line wasn't remotely obvious at the start of the season. To add insult to injury, they also are worse DEFENSIVELY than a lot of top lines, so the relative disparity is even larger.

If the other team has a better top line (which virtually everyone does), and they want to play it against our top line (which they frequently do), Trotz is playing the odds absolutely correctly by limiting the ice time of both top lines. Our offensive advantage (assuming we have one) is depth of scoring so he is playing to our strength such that it is.

To say Trotz is "not showing confidence in the scoring lines" is correct but it is not the negative that you suggest it is. Trotz doesn't let Horny into the shootout-- is he not showing confidence in his top line winger or is making the correct decision that his best odds of winning lie with Marcel Goc or Martin Erat?

Now you can enjoy the game in secure in the knowledge that Trotz is not a dunce but rather is in the unacknowledged fruit of a long-since-forgotten Scotty Bowman indiscretion.
Coaching is game like battle which gets a bad name. But it's similar you are either advancing or retreating. If you state you are retreating then you are stating this by showing your hand and saying that I can't beat you but I'm trying to get the game into overtime or the shootout. That's all in good but in the end we only advanced by one point to a division rival. Winning in it's nature is a risky propostion. You can play defense all night but your not going to stop the opposition 90 percent of the time. Trotz inevitable is saying that can more outcoach on the D side than I can on the O side. Which does say that he has no confidence in the Offense. Because he doesn't know. I don't think anyone can say that Trotz is stupid he is like most coaches and most coaches can't produce winner on a consistant basis. If you say just to make the playoffs is casting him a winner. I don't agree this mean they are good enough to compete but not enough to win a series or beyond

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