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Leafs after JVR per Timmy P

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Old
12-03-2010, 10:34 AM
  #51
glucker
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Originally Posted by Flyskippy View Post


Is this the same glucker from HB? If so, good to "see" you here.

Unless Philly is getting picks (and I don't know why Burke would trade any away now), I don't see a deal happening.
yep

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12-03-2010, 10:37 AM
  #52
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The Leafs have a lot of goalie prospects, yes, good ones, to... ones that Philly tried to obtain for the most part. But Gustavsson is the top of the class right now, our current and future #1. He's not getting traded for a struggling young forward.

Poni had good stats as a Leaf, but not many Leafs fans liked him, because his play was often very lacklustre. Very little passion to his game. If he had some emotion, he'd be a much better player. Kulemin on the other hand is all heart, and has shown great skills. And unlike Poni, he's not a perimeter player, he'll get down and dirty. Philly fans are saying JVR will be a 30/30 guy? Kulemin's currently going for 30/20... and he's getting better every game.

Kadri and Kessel are guys the Leafs are building around, Kadri being Kessel's playmaker. Burke specifically wanted him in the draft, and refused to trade the pick away to move up for Schenn, another player that he wanted. Kadri had a bad camp, but then went ppg in the AHL to earn his call-up. Kadri's got amazing on-ice vision, and massive potential, it's not worth the risk trading him for JVR.

As for Phaneuf, our record with him and without him speaks for itself. He's the heart and soul of this team, and even if his offensive stats aren't great, he's been the driving force for whatever success the Leafs have had these last two seasons. The massive failures the Leafs have shown have only come up while he wasn't around.


I'm not saying these players are all going to be better than JVR, I'm just saying they're important to the Leafs, and JVR isn't valuable enough to warrant trading any of them.
As they say you keep your players, the flyers will keep JVR. What goalie prospects do the leafs have that the flyers tried to obtain? I do not recall them trying to obtain any leafs goalies.

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12-03-2010, 10:37 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Your missing or don’t understand what I am saying. Zherdev has little trade value.
There is no reason to trade anyone off the roster unless you need cap space. Why trade JvR? Whatever you get back is not going to replace the position on teh wing most likely. The highest potential to have a player be successful at the NHL level IS JvR. So even if Burke is offering two 1st round picks I would be hesitent because I am not entirely sure it is going to help this team, especially if it is now. JvR and Carle for Kaberle...? No thanks. So any way you look at it there is nothing that Burke can offer to make any sense UNLESS it is for a cap dump on Homers end to fit Leighton back in which case.......Nik, nice knowing ya.

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12-03-2010, 10:38 AM
  #54
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Don't want Kessel. Or pretty much anything else up and down that lineup.

But two Leafs' firsts would make me stop to consider it for a moment.
Why wouldn't you want Kessel. Can't be because of talent.

The Leafs don't have anything to offer anyone really so good luck making deals I guess.

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12-03-2010, 10:39 AM
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Gustavsson has been amazing(last night being the exception), and Kulemin has been the best Leaf forward all season long- on pace for 30/50 while being great defensively. Kadri was recently drafted and looks great- even if he needs to strengthen up, and Phaneuf is our captain. JVR won't get you any of those guys, they make up the main pieces of the Leafs' core, and won't be available for anything short of a steal by the Leafs, which JVR is not.
Toronto would be lucky to get JVR for Kadri.

All your posts are coming across to me as Toronto expects to get real value without actually sending back any value. Well guess what, that is not going to happen.

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12-03-2010, 10:39 AM
  #56
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Well, let me say it this way:

I'd really love to change my username.

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12-03-2010, 10:44 AM
  #57
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So Toronto wants to add a good asset but they don't wanna give up any good assets?

Sounds about right.

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12-03-2010, 10:46 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Why wouldn't you want Kessel. Can't be because of talent.
Soft as butter, a compete level that ranges from excellent to non-existent, and a player that doesn't appear to be able/willing (not sure which) to use his linemates as anything but filler on the ice.

I'm just not impressed by the player whatsoever. He has skill, but I don't see him magically breaking out and becoming an elite player in the league (although the price Toronto paid for him would lead one to believe they were getting a top 10 player in the league).

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12-03-2010, 10:49 AM
  #59
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As they say you keep your players, the flyers will keep JVR. What goalie prospects do the leafs have that the flyers tried to obtain? I do not recall them trying to obtain any leafs goalies.
I'm fairly certain we were after Rynnas and Scrivens.

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12-03-2010, 10:52 AM
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I'm fairly certain we were after Rynnas and Scrivens.
IIRC, Rynnas was on our radar, but Bob was our number 1 option and we considered Riemer, not Scrivens.

I could be wrong about that last one, though.

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12-03-2010, 10:54 AM
  #61
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Soft as butter, a compete level that ranges from excellent to non-existent, and a player that doesn't appear to be able/willing (not sure which) to use his linemates as anything but filler on the ice.

I'm just not impressed by the player whatsoever. He has skill, but I don't see him magically breaking out and becoming an elite player in the league (although the price Toronto paid for him would lead one to believe they were getting a top 10 player in the league).
Can't really argue with the other two reasons, but I can argue that third one. Kessel is a sniper, just like Carter. Unlike Carter though, the rest of his teammates are utter crap so it's not like he has any overly appealing options on his line anyways. All shooters and puck-hogs don't use their linemates that much. That's how they score so many goals.

He's only 23 and he's managed a career high of 36 goals and 60 points. Still managed 30 goals last year and has 10 in 24 this year despite playing on a horrible Leafs team where he's pretty much the only elite goal-scorer for defenses to key in on.

He's capable of 60 points and probably capable of 40 goals sometimes in his career. Even if that's not elite or spectacular, it's definitely a quality top six winger.

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12-03-2010, 10:55 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
IIRC, Rynnas was on our radar, but Bob was our number 1 option and we considered Riemer, not Scrivens.

I could be wrong about that last one, though.
We looked at all three goalies. Bob, Rynnas, and Scrivens.

Bob was our number one though.

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12-03-2010, 10:58 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
As they say you keep your players, the flyers will keep JVR. What goalie prospects do the leafs have that the flyers tried to obtain? I do not recall them trying to obtain any leafs goalies.
Philly tried to sign Gustavsson, Rynnas, and Scrivens, but they came to the Leafs for Allaire instead
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Toronto would be lucky to get JVR for Kadri.

All your posts are coming across to me as Toronto expects to get real value without actually sending back any value. Well guess what, that is not going to happen.
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
So Toronto wants to add a good asset but they don't wanna give up any good assets?

Sounds about right.
I'm explaining why the trade was a no-go. The top guys the Leafs have, won't be available unless it's a clear win. There's no motivation for the Leafs to trade any of the guys I listed for JVR, when he hasn't really proven himself either.

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12-03-2010, 10:58 AM
  #64
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I can't remember all the details now, but I do remember when the Leafs made the effort to get Burke in mid-season, instead of waiting, that I was actually worried that he was going to do the smart thing and tank completely - accumulating draft picks and getting Tavares or Hedman. Then he made a couple deals to try and make a futile run at the playoffs.

What was even funnier was in the pre-draft time when Burke was going on and on in the media about trading for the rights to draft Tavares - the Isles just laughed at him - when he HAD him all sewn up and blew it. Not only that, they also missed out on Brayden Schenn too, and got stuck with Kadri.

You can't build your future offense completely around a couple of waterbugs who weight 160 pounds each. You can have them in your mix, but not as your best players...

Burke's next firing offense was not so much acquiring Kessel from Boston, but overpaying from a position of strength.

Chiarelli couldn't sign Kessel, who was recovering from surgery. And even if he signed him, he would've been way over the cap, so something had to give.

Instead of waiting until Kessel was about to return, then lowballing, Burke WAY overpaid for Kessel. A first and second was bad enough, but next year's lottery pick is going to kill them.

The way Taylor Hall tore them up last night, I wouldn't be surprised if Burke gets fired when Tyler Seguin scored another couple tomorrow night.....
When the Tavares Dream failed, he went after Brayden Schenn and couldn't even get that one right.

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12-03-2010, 10:58 AM
  #65
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IIRC, Rynnas was on our radar, but Bob was our number 1 option and we considered Riemer, not Scrivens.

I could be wrong about that last one, though.
No, you considered Scrivens. Riemer was drafted by the Leafs years ago.

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12-03-2010, 10:59 AM
  #66
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There is no reason to trade anyone off the roster unless you need cap space. Why trade JvR? Whatever you get back is not going to replace the position on teh wing most likely. The highest potential to have a player be successful at the NHL level IS JvR. So even if Burke is offering two 1st round picks I would be hesitent because I am not entirely sure it is going to help this team, especially if it is now. JvR and Carle for Kaberle...? No thanks. So any way you look at it there is nothing that Burke can offer to make any sense UNLESS it is for a cap dump on Homers end to fit Leighton back in which case.......Nik, nice knowing ya.
Go back and re-read as you still do not grasp anything I said. Where did I say trade JVR? Well if burke had 2 1st and offered them I take them in second as they will be a top 3 pick this year(maybe #1) and probably top 5 next year, then I clearly trade JVR for that package.

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12-03-2010, 11:03 AM
  #67
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Philly tried to sign Gustavsson, Rynnas, and Scrivens, but they came to the Leafs for Allaire instead
they didnt go after gusto at all. Rynnas they kicked the tires but wanted the rushkie instead. Scrivens, they didnt pursue. They had interest in 1 of the 3 guys you mentioned but he wasnt their main target.

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12-03-2010, 11:04 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by glucker View Post
Philly tried to sign Gustavsson, Rynnas, and Scrivens, but they came to the Leafs for Allaire instead




I'm explaining why the trade was a no-go. The top guys the Leafs have, won't be available unless it's a clear win. There's no motivation for the Leafs to trade any of the guys I listed for JVR, when he hasn't really proven himself either.
The Leafs are "enquring" about JVR, meaning they want him, meaning the Flyers don't neccessarily want to trade him.

Basically, the Leafs will have to give these "top guys" in order to get this player that they in fact are "enquring" about. Whats the Flyers incentive to trade him for the Leafs garbage players? Not worth it to them, gotta give to get.

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12-03-2010, 11:05 AM
  #69
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Philly tried to sign Gustavsson, Rynnas, and Scrivens, but they came to the Leafs for Allaire instead
Actually, according to the Flyers they never really played hard for Gustavsson. I don't know how much I believe that, but they backed up their words by signing Backlund.

Also, while Rynnas and Scrivens were on their radar, the Flyers were mostly interested in Bobrovsky. Once Bobrovsky was basically committed, they bowed out from the other two.

I remember this because after all were signed, some Leaf fan was swearing to me that the Flyers got the worst of the three, and I just had to sit there and laugh at my computer screen.

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I'm explaining why the trade was a no-go. The top guys the Leafs have, won't be available unless it's a clear win. There's no motivation for the Leafs to trade any of the guys I listed for JVR, when he hasn't really proven himself either.
Toronto doesn't have the excess assets to acquire JVR, just like the Flyers don't have the excess assets to give up JVR.

Basically Burke would like to get him for free, but unfortunately for Burke, it's not as if JVR isn't playing well or is struggling in Philadelphia. The poor kid gets so much crap talked about him by other fanbases who assume he's not playing well just because of his low point totals. Meanwhile he's playing hard on the forecheck, around the net, in his own zone, and doing everything with limited ice time and no powerplay time. I've never seen a 2nd overall pick with such bad luck to get stuck on a team so deep.

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12-03-2010, 11:05 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I can't remember all the details now, but I do remember when the Leafs made the effort to get Burke in mid-season, instead of waiting, that I was actually worried that he was going to do the smart thing and tank completely - accumulating draft picks and getting Tavares or Hedman. Then he made a couple deals to try and make a futile run at the playoffs.

What was even funnier was in the pre-draft time when Burke was going on and on in the media about trading for the rights to draft Tavares - the Isles just laughed at him - when he HAD him all sewn up and blew it. Not only that, they also missed out on Brayden Schenn too, and got stuck with Kadri.

You can't build your future offense completely around a couple of waterbugs who weight 160 pounds each. You can have them in your mix, but not as your best players...

Burke's next firing offense was not so much acquiring Kessel from Boston, but overpaying from a position of strength.

Chiarelli couldn't sign Kessel, who was recovering from surgery. And even if he signed him, he would've been way over the cap, so something had to give.

Instead of waiting until Kessel was about to return, then lowballing, Burke WAY overpaid for Kessel. A first and second was bad enough, but next year's lottery pick is going to kill them.

The way Taylor Hall tore them up last night, I wouldn't be surprised if Burke gets fired when Tyler Seguin scored another couple tomorrow night.....
You're so far off on a lot of this it's not even funny...

Burke didn't make any deals to get into the playoffs his first year, he traded away Antropov and Moore for picks, bought a 4th round pick by grabbing a bunch of injured guys from I think Florida, and picked up Gerber to fill in for Toskala.

Burke said he'd try to trade up for Tavares, but was unsuccessful, and he could have traded up for Schenn, but he wanetd to keep the 7th overall pick, because he wanted Kadri as well. Same reason teh Kessel draft day deal never went through- he liked Kadri, and wanted to draft him.


Burke's biggest mistake was putting the faith he did in Toskala and Wilson. He fixed one of those problems, but he refuses to rid this team of Ronnie


Last edited by glucker: 12-03-2010 at 11:43 AM.
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12-03-2010, 11:08 AM
  #71
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The Leafs are "enquring" about JVR, meaning they want him, meaning the Flyers don't neccessarily want to trade him.

Basically, the Leafs will have to give these "top guys" in order to get this player that they in fact are "enquring" about. Whats the Flyers incentive to trade him for the Leafs garbage players? Not worth it to them, gotta give to get.
Burke probably just asked what it'd take, and Homer said he didn't want to deal him and it ended there.

These types of things probably happen on a daily basis... they just usually don't get reported

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12-03-2010, 11:10 AM
  #72
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Burke probably just asked what it'd take, and Homer said he didn't want to deal him and it ended there.

These types of things probably happen on a daily basis... they just usually don't get reported
I agree.

My point is though, why would the Flyers trade JVR for MacArthur and a 3rd for example? Doesnt help the Flyers one bit, so they'll be more than happy to hold onto him.

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12-03-2010, 11:23 AM
  #73
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if a move is to be made that helps your team now and int he future, sure you do. Doesnt matter if it is a weakness. If someone offers you a better player you make the deal. Then address your needs elsewhere by moving other parts.
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Go back and re-read as you still do not grasp anything I said. Where did I say trade JVR? Well if burke had 2 1st and offered them I take them in second as they will be a top 3 pick this year(maybe #1) and probably top 5 next year, then I clearly trade JVR for that package.
At one part of the discussion you point out that a move to help the team now and in the future. The player who helps now and in the future is JvR, so moving him now as I pointed out is weakening teh only chip you have on the and your preference would be to get an unknown draft pick, the picks would be 2012 and 2013, due to the uncertainty of where these picks will be you would have to wait until 2012 to actually get something back.

The point is JvR is important to this team now and next year, so moving him for draft picks is flat out a dufus move considering this team is set to win now. Considering that the Laffs have nothing to be able to return for similar salary it would be considered a salary dump, in which case dump Zherdev who's future is much more uncertain.

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12-03-2010, 11:24 AM
  #74
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I don't want Kadri or anyone else from the Laffs, and I can't imagine Burke would be dumb enough to trade any more first round draft picks at this time.

As for this old Carter for Kaberle rumour, Laffs fans seem to take it as gospel and continually lament that the trade was never made. Nobody knows if it was ever proposed or if it was close to happening but I think a lot of Laffs fans jumped off bridges when Carter signed the extension.

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12-03-2010, 11:28 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I can't remember all the details now, but I do remember when the Leafs made the effort to get Burke in mid-season, instead of waiting, that I was actually worried that he was going to do the smart thing and tank completely - accumulating draft picks and getting Tavares or Hedman. Then he made a couple deals to try and make a futile run at the playoffs.

What was even funnier was in the pre-draft time when Burke was going on and on in the media about trading for the rights to draft Tavares - the Isles just laughed at him - when he HAD him all sewn up and blew it. Not only that, they also missed out on Brayden Schenn too, and got stuck with Kadri.

You can't build your future offense completely around a couple of waterbugs who weight 160 pounds each. You can have them in your mix, but not as your best players...

Burke's next firing offense was not so much acquiring Kessel from Boston, but overpaying from a position of strength.

Chiarelli couldn't sign Kessel, who was recovering from surgery. And even if he signed him, he would've been way over the cap, so something had to give.

Instead of waiting until Kessel was about to return, then lowballing, Burke WAY overpaid for Kessel. A first and second was bad enough, but next year's lottery pick is going to kill them.

The way Taylor Hall tore them up last night, I wouldn't be surprised if Burke gets fired when Tyler Seguin scored another couple tomorrow night.....
Not saying that you are completely wrong, but these are the moves that Toronto made after Burke took over until the trade deadline:

Brad may from Anaheim for a conditional 6th round draft pick in 2010
Ryan Hamilton from Minnesota for Robbie Earl
Put Staffan Kronwall on waivers who was claimed by Washington
Put Mark Bell on waivers who was calimed by the Rangers
Claimed Erik Reitz off waivers from the Rangers
Claimed Martin Gerber off waivers from the Senators
Traded Nik Antropov to the Rangers for a 2nd round pick in 2009 and a conditional 4th in 2010
Traded Dominic Moore to Buffalo for Caroliona's 2nd round pick in 2009
Traded Richard Petiot to Tampa for Olaf Kölzig, Andy Rogers, Jamie Heward and Carolina's 4th round pick in 2009.

If that's what trying to make the playoffs looks like in Burkeland, the Leafs are worse off than I thought.

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