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Hamilton Bulldogs Moving??

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Old
11-20-2010, 12:55 AM
  #26
Tommy Hawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblick View Post
Wow - the only part of that I even came close to understanding was the .
I didn't even get ! I understood Toronto and Edmonton but only because I have been there and they are in Canada.

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11-21-2010, 05:47 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
I think there was a thread on this a year or two ago. Almost every franchise has a possibility of moving with maybe the exception of Hershey but even then, if something happens to the owners......

But that is the nature of minor league sports.
They were considering a move to St. John's fairly recently.

Unlike the idea of teams moving their affiliates out West, though, there's a player development concern along with the logistic side of things: do the Habs want their prospects developing in the high-pressure environment that surrounds the Canadiens organization in greater Montreal? If they don't think it'll be an issue, then Laval is a good option.

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11-21-2010, 08:58 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
They were considering a move to St. John's fairly recently.

Unlike the idea of teams moving their affiliates out West, though, there's a player development concern along with the logistic side of things: do the Habs want their prospects developing in the high-pressure environment that surrounds the Canadiens organization in greater Montreal? If they don't think it'll be an issue, then Laval is a good option.
High presure in the nhl does not alwas apply to the ahl.Look at the marlies very few care about them win or lose no big deal.

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11-22-2010, 03:16 PM
  #29
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There have been some mid-season moves in the minors in recent times (back in 2002-03, the ACHL St. Pete team moved mid-season to Winston-Salem, for example), but there hasn't been an _AHL_ mid-season move in a very long time. The closest most recent thing I can see, looking over the history, is the 1977-78 season, where the AHL Hampton Gulls appear to have FOLDED mid-season (but not moved). The most recent mid-season MOVE I can find in the AHL is the AHL Cleveland Barons moving to Jacksonville in the middle of the 1972-73 season.

That said, there is NO really supportable reason to think that the current Bulldogs are anywhere close to even considering a middle-of-the-night sneak out of town for somewhere else in the middle of the season. Their attendance is off, but only by 7%, and those are numbers they've sustained in the past without any of this level of hue and cry. They're actually in the top half of teams in terms of AHL attendance. So, let's not blow any of this out of proportion. Might there be a move in the future? Perhaps - but really, let's not go overboard enough to wildly speculate about mid-season moves.


Last edited by HansH: 11-22-2010 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Additional thoughts added
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11-22-2010, 04:44 PM
  #30
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http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ena-in-waiting

If the Bulldogs leave, perhaps they already have something in mind to replace those dates:

"Over the years, millions of people have settled into seats at Copps to be entertained by musicians, ice skaters and even a few dinosaurs. The arena is home to the American Hockey League's Bulldogs and hosts Christmas parties, sex shows and rodeos. It's booked 200 days a year by 80 to 90 events."

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11-22-2010, 05:29 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Booth View Post
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ena-in-waiting

If the Bulldogs leave, perhaps they already have something in mind to replace those dates:

"Over the years, millions of people have settled into seats at Copps to be entertained by musicians, ice skaters and even a few dinosaurs. The arena is home to the American Hockey League's Bulldogs and hosts Christmas parties, sex shows and rodeos. It's booked 200 days a year by 80 to 90 events."
From what i have been hearing is there having a harder time attracting major acts.It won't be a matter of filling the dates at the worst and lets hope it does not happen is they will go bankrupt so they could not be have a plan to fill the arena with other events if thats happens.

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11-22-2010, 05:31 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by HansH View Post
There have been some mid-season moves in the minors in recent times (back in 2002-03, the ACHL St. Pete team moved mid-season to Winston-Salem, for example), but there hasn't been an _AHL_ mid-season move in a very long time. The closest most recent thing I can see, looking over the history, is the 1977-78 season, where the AHL Hampton Gulls appear to have FOLDED mid-season (but not moved). The most recent mid-season MOVE I can find in the AHL is the AHL Cleveland Barons moving to Jacksonville in the middle of the 1972-73 season.

That said, there is NO really supportable reason to think that the current Bulldogs are anywhere close to even considering a middle-of-the-night sneak out of town for somewhere else in the middle of the season. Their attendance is off, but only by 7%, and those are numbers they've sustained in the past without any of this level of hue and cry. They're actually in the top half of teams in terms of AHL attendance. So, let's not blow any of this out of proportion. Might there be a move in the future? Perhaps - but really, let's not go overboard enough to wildly speculate about mid-season moves.
Its not so much the attendance that is the main issue is the group that runs copps etc there from what i have heard already in debt $7 million.

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11-22-2010, 06:56 PM
  #33
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Didn't the current group that runs Copps just get tossed over for another group?

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11-22-2010, 07:00 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Booth View Post
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ena-in-waiting

If the Bulldogs leave, perhaps they already have something in mind to replace those dates:

"Over the years, millions of people have settled into seats at Copps to be entertained by musicians, ice skaters and even a few dinosaurs. The arena is home to the American Hockey League's Bulldogs and hosts Christmas parties, sex shows and rodeos. It's booked 200 days a year by 80 to 90 events."
Funny how it's listed but the "sex show" has only been held once at Copps, in past years it's been at the convention centre and it's a trade show, a giant adult novelty show and sale..... not the type of show you might be thinking.

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11-22-2010, 07:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Didn't the current group that runs Copps just get tossed over for another group?
Nope, HECFI which is basically a branch of city hall has ran it for years. Their last financial statement and financial woes just came out though. The idea of the team leaving mid season or even at the end of this season seems highly unlikely.

This past off-season a three year deal between HECFI and the Bulldogs was signed, the signing did come in very late though, it's was widely stated that Andlauer (Bulldogs owner) had travelled to St. John's to talk to those people in case an NHL club forced them out. It's my believe he talked to them about a deal, but as many people here have stated St. John's seems to be very difficult to deal with. My guess is that Hamilton was the best deal available.

When the Laval arena is ready, will Hamilton still be the best deal available to Andlauer?....... that's the question down the road.

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Old
11-23-2010, 05:10 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
Has any minor league team ever changed cities mid season, I know some have outright folded but can't think of any moving.....
Some WHA teams moved midseason (just to name one, the NY Golden Blades to Cherry Hill NJ to become the Jersey Knights), but the AHL Cleveland Barons moved to Jacksonville, FL in February 1973.

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11-30-2010, 12:21 AM
  #37
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Seems to me the BullDogs poor attendance is part of a larger trend in Hamilton.

The TiCats receive the worst fan support in the league and it has been the case for several years......and in all probability have the worst gate revenues.

In 2007, the Hamilton Brier was the worst attended Brier in recent memory...to the point that several curlers publicly complained about it.

Bulldogs have had a history of drawing poor crowds despite fielding competitive teams year in, year out. In fact, they are lucky to average more than 5,000/ game over a season. Of particular note was the year they won the Calder Cup, 2007. The team averaged a pathetic 4600 per game in the playoffs and couldn't even sellout the final playoff game when they won the championship.

Also, let's not forget the debacle that was the 1996 Grey Cup.

All signs point to Hamilton being a lousy sports town in general. Maybe it would be for the best if this new arena in Laval would bring the Bulldogs in as their primary tenant.

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11-30-2010, 06:22 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Seems to me the BullDogs poor attendance is part of a larger trend in Hamilton.

The TiCats receive the worst fan support in the league and it has been the case for several years......and in all probability have the worst gate revenues.

In 2007, the Hamilton Brier was the worst attended Brier in recent memory...to the point that several curlers publicly complained about it.

Bulldogs have had a history of drawing poor crowds despite fielding competitive teams year in, year out. In fact, they are lucky to average more than 5,000/ game over a season. Of particular note was the year they won the Calder Cup, 2007. The team averaged a pathetic 4600 per game in the playoffs and couldn't even sellout the final playoff game when they won the championship.

Also, let's not forget the debacle that was the 1996 Grey Cup.

All signs point to Hamilton being a lousy sports town in general. Maybe it would be for the best if this new arena in Laval would bring the Bulldogs in as their primary tenant.
CFL attendance 2010--Hamilton 23,890 per game.
----------------------Toronto 22,069 per game.


Any team is "lucky" to average over 5,000 fans a game..... if you check the past few seasons about a dozen team in a 28-30 team league average over 5,000.

In 06-07, the year the Dogs won the average attendance was 4,888.

A Montreal Canadiens farm team is not working in a city so close to Toronto....... totally agree, but if you're going to slag the city and the fans that it does have..... please try to get your statistics right, don't just pull numbers out of the air.

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11-30-2010, 08:56 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ChicagoWolves1 View Post
I cannot envision a scenario where they would move mid-season. I am sure as written there are AHL provisions that would prevent it mid-stream. Has a team actually folded or moved mid-season that anyone can recall?
In 1990, in the IHL, the Albany Choppers folded on Valentines Day. That is the most recent team that I can remember folding in the season. Some IHL teams moved mid-season in the mid to late 1970s.

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Old
12-03-2010, 12:57 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
CFL attendance 2010--Hamilton 23,890 per game.
----------------------Toronto 22,069 per game.


Any team is "lucky" to average over 5,000 fans a game..... if you check the past few seasons about a dozen team in a 28-30 team league average over 5,000.

In 06-07, the year the Dogs won the average attendance was 4,888.

A Montreal Canadiens farm team is not working in a city so close to Toronto....... totally agree, but if you're going to slag the city and the fans that it does have..... please try to get your statistics right, don't just pull numbers out of the air.
CFL Average attendance per game 2000-2010

Hamilton: 20775
Toronto: 23912

If you look at recent history (last 10 years), The TiCats are easily drawing worse numbers than Argos.

As for the BullDogs, looking at the last 6 years:

2010-11 BullDogs average: 4080/game
League Average: 4739/game

2010 BullDog Playoff average: 3287/game for 10 games
2010 League Playoff Average: 4170/game

2009-10 BullDogs average: 4374 per game
2009-10 League Average: 5100 per game

2009 BullDog Playoff Average: 2768 per game for 3 games
2009 League Playoff Average: 5046 per game

2008-2009 BullDogs Average: 4624 per game
2008-09 League Average: 5115 per game

2008 Bulldogs Playoff Average: NA
2008 League Playoff Average: 4233 per game

2007-08 BullDogs Average: 4575 per game
2007-08 League Average: 5270 per game

2007 BullDogs Playoff Average: 4653 per game for 12 games
2007 League Playoff Average: 4390 per game

2006-07 BullDogs Average: 4888 per game
2006-07 League Average: 5472 per game

2006 BullDogs Playoff Average: NA
2006 League Playoff Average: 4469 per game

2005-06 BullDogs Average: 5120 per game
2005-06 League Average: 5488 per game

Looking at these stats, it is pretty clear that the BullDogs have been drawing below league average crowds for years, both in the regular season and in the playoffs...with the exception of one year (which I bolded) when they went to the finals and won the Calder Cup.

In some years, particularly the 2009 and 2010 playoffs, their attendance is downright pathetic. I mean, 3200 per game when your team makes it all the way to the Conference Finals.....that is a joke!

Based on these numbers, people should not be surprised if the Montreal Canadiens decide to move the team out of Hamilton.

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12-03-2010, 01:07 AM
  #41
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You can't really use attendance averages for the league as there are a few teams that are always significantly higher than the next tier.

You should look for the natural break between the levels of attendance or maybe use the median. Also, I could argue that the difference compared to the average attendance is statistically insignificant using standard deviations.

Now if you do year to year comparison of the attendance in Hamilton and indicate it has dropped every year, then you would have a point.

Also, teams that draw 4500 per game can make a profit and those that draw 9,000 a game may lose money since each teams financial structure is different.

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12-03-2010, 11:16 AM
  #42
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The ECHL lost both the Fresno Falcons and Augusta Lynx midseason in 2008-09.

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12-03-2010, 11:59 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Based on these numbers, people should not be surprised if the Montreal Canadiens decide to move the team out of Hamilton.
The problem with your statement is that the Canadiens do not own the Hamilton Bulldogs so it is not up to them whether the Bulldogs move or relocate.

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12-03-2010, 07:19 PM
  #44
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Maybe they could move to Kansas City.

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12-03-2010, 11:37 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post

Looking at these stats, it is pretty clear that the BullDogs have been drawing below league average crowds for years, both in the regular season and in the playoffs...with the exception of one year (which I bolded) when they went to the finals and won the Calder Cup.

In some years, particularly the 2009 and 2010 playoffs, their attendance is downright pathetic. I mean, 3200 per game when your team makes it all the way to the Conference Finals.....that is a joke!

Based on these numbers, people should not be surprised if the Montreal Canadiens decide to move the team out of Hamilton.
If they do go to Laval there will be very few here in Hamilton that will truly be surprised. Sadly the Leafs are the only hockey team the majority of people care about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
The problem with your statement is that the Canadiens do not own the Hamilton Bulldogs so it is not up to them whether the Bulldogs move or relocate.
Yes but Michael Andlauer now owns what they have referred to as "a significant" portion of the Habs. He would have a much easier time keeping tabs on both teams if they were in Laval.

I also think Laval would "want" the Bulldogs....short of a small faithful following the city of Hamilton does care about the Dogs. Politicians fall all over one another at even the thought of a NHL club, but don't give a damn about the Dogs because they are not the NHL.

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12-04-2010, 08:47 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
Yes but Michael Andlauer now owns what they have referred to as "a significant" portion of the Habs. He would have a much easier time keeping tabs on both teams if they were in Laval.

I also think Laval would "want" the Bulldogs....short of a small faithful following the city of Hamilton does care about the Dogs. Politicians fall all over one another at even the thought of a NHL club, but don't give a damn about the Dogs because they are not the NHL.
Forgive the question, but does Michael Andlauer have any ownership stake in the Bulldogs?

Either way, if the Canadiens do want a team in Laval, there is always the possibility of purchasing an AHL franchise. Despite having a more competitive team this year, the Falcons attendance is down about 200 from last year. That could pave the way for Montreal to purchase/relocate that franchise.

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12-04-2010, 12:58 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Forgive the question, but does Michael Andlauer have any ownership stake in the Bulldogs?

Either way, if the Canadiens do want a team in Laval, there is always the possibility of purchasing an AHL franchise. Despite having a more competitive team this year, the Falcons attendance is down about 200 from last year. That could pave the way for Montreal to purchase/relocate that franchise.
Andlauer is the owner of the Bulldogs.

Here's an article on him buying a stake in the Habs.

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12-04-2010, 02:29 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Forgive the question, but does Michael Andlauer have any ownership stake in the Bulldogs?

Either way, if the Canadiens do want a team in Laval, there is always the possibility of purchasing an AHL franchise. Despite having a more competitive team this year, the Falcons attendance is down about 200 from last year. That could pave the way for Montreal to purchase/relocate that franchise.
Could Andlauer own an AHL club not affiliated with Montreal and at the same time own part of the Canadiens?

Seems like a conflict of interest to me.

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12-04-2010, 02:54 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
Could Andlauer own an AHL club not affiliated with Montreal and at the same time own part of the Canadiens?

Seems like a conflict of interest to me.
Blue's

it's not...

if Andlauer hadn't there likely wouldn't be a Bulldog franchise affiliated w/ Montreal's dormant when Edmonton pulled their franchise out(currently OKC)....

Someone had to operate the franchise in Hamilton when they went from an owned franchise as Edmonton did to private as Andlauer is....

also, Montreal was owned by the Gillettes, until they sold it back to the Molson Heirs, and Andlauer bought part of the Canadiens as a sidebar to that sale

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12-04-2010, 03:26 PM
  #50
Stanley Foobrick
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
Blue's

it's not...

if Andlauer hadn't there likely wouldn't be a Bulldog franchise affiliated w/ Montreal's dormant when Edmonton pulled their franchise out(currently OKC)....

Someone had to operate the franchise in Hamilton when they went from an owned franchise as Edmonton did to private as Andlauer is....

also, Montreal was owned by the Gillettes, until they sold it back to the Molson Heirs, and Andlauer bought part of the Canadiens as a sidebar to that sale
So you're saying that Andlauer could be a part owner of the Habs, and own the, let's say, Florida Panthers farm team in Hamilton at the same time?

I highly doubt the Canadians would purchase another franchise as suggest and leaving Andlauer out in the cold, considering he would be one of the guys having to make that decision.

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