Kaberle was an absolute steal at #204 but I'd rate the 1996 class of d-men like this:
1- Chara
2- Morris
3- Salei
4- Kubina
5- Kaberle
Kaberle has the offense but is suspect defensively and not physical while Salei is a stay at home work horse. If you consider that the primary job of a defensemen is to prevent the opponents from scoring, I have to put Salei (and even Kubina) above him.
There is one player I would without a doubt take over Tomas from the 1996 class, and that is obviously Zdeno Chara. Behind that though, Kaberle is part o a group of players who would be fighting for #2 and making up the rest of the top 5.
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Originally Posted by Fozz
Kaberle has the offense but is suspect defensively and not physical while Salei is a stay at home work horse. If you consider that the primary job of a defensemen is to prevent the opponents from scoring, I have to put Salei (and even Kubina) above him.
Please do not equate not being physical with being suspect defensively. The rest of yoru argument is just as invalid; there is a reason there are offensive and defensive defensemen in the league. (kind of like how there also are defensively oriented forwards) Part of the task of a defenseman besides defending his team's goal is to start up the attack of his team by passing and getting the puck to the opposing team's zone, as well as setting up the forwards. Two aspects Tomas Kaberle for instance excels at.
Kaberle was an absolute steal at #204 but I'd rate the 1996 class of d-men like this:
1- Chara
2- Morris
3- Salei
4- Kubina
5- Kaberle
Kaberle has the offense but is suspect defensively and not physical while Salei is a stay at home work horse. If you consider that the primary job of a defensemen is to prevent the opponents from scoring, I have to put Salei (and even Kubina) above him.
I'm not a big Kaberle fan, but objectively and realistically the would go more like this (Toronto/Kaberle bashers aside)
He is the most mobile and best passer of the bunch, plays well positionally, though is not strong enough to clear the net vs bigger/stronger players but, then again, against players that are bigger and stronger which is hard for anyone under those circumstances. ...I'm sure Chara would have trouble against a 7ft 300 lb player, but Kaberle makes up for it with a superior offence that none of the others can match.
I would take Chara in a heartbeat over Kaberle ...but I would take Kaberle 2nd above the others in a draft. ...as a free agent though, he may not be the best fit for a particlar team, but in a draft, and based only on potential, Kaberle would be 2nd.
The general consensus on Kaberle's draft position on HF given the opportunity of hindsight just over a year ago (in the midst of his bad season) was #3 overall behind Chara and Morris. http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...996+Draft+redo
As for the weak defensive argument, do we really have to go into that again and teach those of ignorance in the sport of hockey?
Response to Chara. While Chara is a great defenseman right now, I think what is being overlooked is the fact that he took so long to develop. He only really came into his own in the past couple of NHL seasons, while Kaberle was a #2, budding #1 from pretty much his second season. I, personally, take the overall career into account. I don't think we have seen the best from Kaberle either and if all the reports I have heard of him are true, he may finally be ready to be that #1 after this year in the Czech league, I heard he has gotten stronger and developed a lidstrom-esque edge to his game. While other's would put them 1 and 2, I would go the other way and call Chara #2, as he still gets beat by faster forwards and has the worst pivot I have ever seen. In terms of consistency and overall I take Kaberle without a doubt. Morris probably started better then Kaberle, but he performance has been declining. Even though he had a monster year in Colorado right after he was traded, he again has started to slip. I would say he would go top 5. As for the other polls, I have learned that there is so much nastiness about the leafs, that the only way to get a fair comparison is to move them up at least a few notches on everyone elese list, as by virtue of being a leaf, he is handicapped in their minds.
I'm a huge fan of Kaberle as most people know and i consider him incredibly underrated... particularly his defensive game in which he's laighed off as horrific defensively just b/c he's not physical but I don't see him as being the best from 96'. I give the nod to Chara hands down.
Short of being Lidstrom and winning multiple consecutive Norris trophies it seems pretty hard to get any respect for your defensive play unless your physical. Personally I'm of the opinion Kabs defensive game is above average all considered... he's caught pinching a little too often and he's very soft but he's excellent defensively and has a eye for watchig the play develop in front of him.
I see Kabs as a surefire top 5, and not entirely unequestionable at #2 but Chara is clearly the best of his class. And this from someone that considers Chara a bit overrated.
To me Chara is the best all around defenseman in the NHL right now.
Kaberle's +57 ranks 17th among dmen in the league since his broke in (including his rookie year, etc). He ranks 15th in the playoffs with a +8. He has played on a decent team but so have many other NHL dmen. I realize that plus/minus isn't a great, precise stat but I don't know how a dman does that while being as poor defensivly as some describe him. Many other top scoring dmen on good teams should be ahead of him if he is so bad.
He is 13th in regular season scoring and 11th in the playoffs among dmen since breaking in.
If the rules changes open the ice up, I think we'll all be pretty darn glad to have him.
To me Chara is the best all around defenseman in the NHL right now.
I'd take guys like Lidstrom, pronger, Neidermayer and such before him without thinking twice. In fact, I'd probably lead towards taking his own teammate Wade Redden before Chara.
Chara's good no doubt, but he gets too much credit IMHO.
He obviously absolutely huge, and plays as big as he is...he can flatten anyone in the league and plays hard. A strong work ethc, a nice shot and good passing skills.
Positionally he's only decent though, and if he's caught out of position he can be beaten easily as he's not particularly quick and his agility is extremely poor.
Great player, and a legitimate #1 D-Man... but he wouldn't get a sniff of being top 5 IMHO.
Response to Chara. While Chara is a great defenseman right now, I think what is being overlooked is the fact that he took so long to develop.
A valid point as Kabs was in the NHL 3yrs ahead of him, and an impact D-Man yrs before him. Over the long term I'm not sure it's nearly sufficient to eclipse thew difference in ability though. Chara is only 28 so he should have plenty of years at the top of his game left, and with his size even if he degrades early he should still be more then capable of being a top 4 D-Man.
As in my previous post, I wholly agree with your comments on Chara's weaknesses but his strengths can't be denied. He's able to put up offensive numbers that are reasonably close to Kaberle's, though I do think Kabs has room to improve in this regard and as a shutdown D-Man he can match up with anyone.
Kabs, while I do feel he's underrated is awfully soft and he's not likely to ever dominate a game defensively.
As for Lidstrom-esque edge...we,, they play a broadly similar game but Lidstrom is now and has been for a long time significantly better in every respect IMO.
Right now I'd put Kabs just below Morris as the 3rd best of 06', though in time he could well surpass him. Chara unless he falters badly is the clear cut #1 in my mind.
Response to Chara. While Chara is a great defenseman right now, I think what is being overlooked is the fact that he took so long to develop. He only really came into his own in the past couple of NHL seasons, while Kaberle was a #2, budding #1 from pretty much his second season. I, personally, take the overall career into account.
But isn't that what having the benefit of hindsight is all about......
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I don't think we have seen the best from Kaberle either and if all the reports I have heard of him are true, he may finally be ready to be that #1 after this year in the Czech league, I heard he has gotten stronger and developed a lidstrom-esque edge to his game.
Although that may be true let me put it this way: Kaberle will more than likely never win a Norris, and deservedly so. That's fine, lots of quality dmen never have and never will. Chara on the other hand could definatly win one one day - some think he should have last season. He brings everything Kaberle does to the rink plus a huge frame and the ability to isolate almost anyone in the game. The only real advatage I think Kaberle has on Chara is mobility, and that's to be expected although still a plus for Tom.
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While other's would put them 1 and 2, I would go the other way and call Chara #2, as he still gets beat by faster forwards and has the worst pivot I have ever seen.
Just as I've seen Chara get beaten by small, fast forwards (although he's always had great success against Atlanta in particular, who have Kovalchuk and Heatley) I've seen Kaberle get beaten by big powerforwards just as often. Worst pivot you've ever seen? It's not great but not only would I not go that far, I think he's at least average for a man of his size (unfortunatly when he's competing against 5'11 forwards that can be exploited).
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In terms of consistency and overall I take Kaberle without a doubt.
Since both players became key figures on their respective bluelines, Chara has easily been the more consistant of the two IMO.
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Morris probably started better then Kaberle, but he performance has been declining. Even though he had a monster year in Colorado right after he was traded, he again has started to slip. I would say he would go top 5.
Morris has actually been fairly consistant since entering the NHL, at least point-wise, excluding that huge season in Colorado and his recent poor showing. But Kaberle is too coming off of a sub-par campaigne. I agree Kaberle would be (or should be...) selected before Morris but how can you punish Morris and not Kaberle on this point?
I'd take guys like Lidstrom, pronger, Neidermayer and such before him without thinking twice.
As of right now I'd definatly agree to that. But when those guys get a bit older Chara will still be peaking, and quite possibly be the best dman in the league while guys like J-Bow and Pitkanen are still that small step away from being elite. Pronger's injuries make the gap smaller than before IMO. Dollar for dollar, Chara is above all of them. I also think he's more complete than Neidermayer and possibly Lidstrom, but that doesn't translate to him being better unfortunatly.
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In fact, I'd probably lead towards taking his own teammate Wade Redden before Chara.
Redden is very overrated IMO, he's prone to giving up the puck at the worst time and isn't at all phsyical. If Kaberle can regain his form he'll be only be a shade away from Wade as far as I'm concerned. Don't get me wrong, Redden has lots of good qualities which I can list upon request, but he's not even clsoe to Chara IMO and will likely be traded in a package for a legit #1 goalie/LW powerforward once Volchenkov and Meszaros are further developed.
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Chara's good no doubt, but he gets too much credit IMHO.
He obviously absolutely huge, and plays as big as he is...he can flatten anyone in the league and plays hard. A strong work ethc, a nice shot and good passing skills.
Positionally he's only decent though, and if he's caught out of position he can be beaten easily as he's not particularly quick and his agility is extremely poor.
Great player, and a legitimate #1 D-Man... but he wouldn't get a sniff of being top 5 IMHO.
Agreed except on two points:
- He's fine positionally initially. But that poor speed as you mentioned enables him to be taken out of position with a few clever moves.
- Name 5 defemsemen who are better than Chara. I can only name three: Pronger, Neidermayer, Lidstrom. Maybe Blake can be included, but that's still only 4 and they are pretty equal IMO.
- Name 5 defemsemen who are better than Chara. I can only name three: Pronger, Neidermayer, Lidstrom. Maybe Blake can be included, but that's still only 4 and they are pretty equal IMO.
