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Leafs after JVR per Timmy P

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Old
12-04-2010, 04:33 PM
  #126
Clown Baby
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
i agree. but, this is the NHL. windows are small and when you have malkin, crosby, kane and toews in other teams, waiting sucks

then, what if you wait for him to develop into the power forward he should be, passing on trade after trade banking on his draft position and potential and it falls through? just saying.. someone drafted 2nd, having played college and AHL AND with stanley cup experience should develop faster, especially with the strong leadership in the locker room. ****, correct if i am wrong but it looks like hall and sequin are looking better than jvr. ****ing stamkos looks better than ovechkin and tavares is a star already.

im jus throwing that out there. how long do you wait for him to develop when other teams are getting better each and every year with more talented squads. the flyers have zero star prospects (except giroux, but he is out of prospect range now). sure we have carter, richards, giroux but they don't compete with ovie and backstrom and carlson or crosby, malkin and fleur or even kane and toews duncan/keith.

jvr almost NEEDS to turn into what he was drafted to be otherwise it will be epic fail IMO
Wow, man. You're controversial. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you're being hypersensitive just to get a rise out of people.

Way I see it, if JVR can pot 30 goals, and notch 60 points, while being competitive defensively, he'll be doing what everyone came to expect of Gagne prior to breaking out at the age of 25.

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12-04-2010, 04:46 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
**** Patrick Kane. For real. **** em. There are a lot of players in the NHL better than JVR, and even more who are closer to their peak or who have fully developed their skill set.

Just because the two were drafted close to one another does not make one the measuring stick for the other. Kane was more ready to play in the NHL when he got drafted and he's further along in his development even now (IMO he's pretty much as good as he's going to get in most respects). Step away from the Kane comparisons and look at JVR's first couple of years with some perspective and you'll see he's doing just fine.
Agreed. This is like *****ing because Zach Parise is better than Jeff Carter. Who cares?

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12-04-2010, 04:46 PM
  #128
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The funny thing is that for all of the talk about JVR sucking and etc., despite playing a few games on the 4th line and a few more with that completely failed Giroux-Zherdev line, he has 4 goals and 7 assists in 23 games and is +8 which really isn't bad considering that he doesn't play PP yet.

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12-04-2010, 06:08 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Wow, man. You're controversial. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you're being hypersensitive just to get a rise out of people.

Way I see it, if JVR can pot 30 goals, and notch 60 points, while being competitive defensively, he'll be doing what everyone came to expect of Gagne prior to breaking out at the age of 25.
this forum needs something. it is so boring reading the same **** over and over again.

a differing point of view is refreshing.

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12-04-2010, 06:09 PM
  #130
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just because i am a flyers fan doesnt mean i cant criticize someone who isnt holmgren.

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12-04-2010, 08:02 PM
  #131
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What I don't get about the comparisons to Kane is we didn't even have the chance to draft Kane.

Maybe JvR was at the top of the board for the Flyers anyway, but that's not really relevant to how it played out. Maybe it would be valid if van Riemsdyk was a main reason why we lost the Cup, but he wasn't. You could even argue he's the one who really started the run with his goal against Boston after The Timeout.

The comparison is wholly unfounded.

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12-04-2010, 09:08 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Kadri? No thanks. I know Leafs fans think he's the NHL's next superstar, but he's a long, long way from it.
Kadri is going to be a very, very, very good player. I've watched him in London and he was spectacular. On top of it, he's playing on a horrible Toronto team and he's played well. It's not his fault that Kessel and Bozak aren't finishing.

As for Kadri's demotion to the fourth line, that's just a typical idiotic Wilson move. Kadri is going to be perfectly fine if he ever gets out of Toronto.....

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Old
12-05-2010, 02:15 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
**** Patrick Kane. For real. **** em. There are a lot of players in the NHL better than JVR, and even more who are closer to their peak or who have fully developed their skill set.

Just because the two were drafted close to one another does not make one the measuring stick for the other. Kane was more ready to play in the NHL when he got drafted and he's further along in his development even now (IMO he's pretty much as good as he's going to get in most respects). Step away from the Kane comparisons and look at JVR's first couple of years with some perspective and you'll see he's doing just fine.
You know what my name for JVR is?

Not-Patrick-Kane.

And when I call him that in bars while watching the game-- every Flyer fan gets the joke.

And unless JVR sinks the winning goal in a Stanley Cup finals game to clinch the cup within the next few years, it is going to burn me up forever. That is his measuring stick.

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12-05-2010, 02:19 AM
  #134
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Patrick Kane rules

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Old
12-05-2010, 03:37 AM
  #135
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Patrick Kane rules
He really is god's gift to Hockey isn't he?

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12-05-2010, 11:17 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
You know what my name for JVR is?

Not-Patrick-Kane.

And when I call him that in bars while watching the game-- every Flyer fan gets the joke.

And unless JVR sinks the winning goal in a Stanley Cup finals game to clinch the cup within the next few years, it is going to burn me up forever. That is his measuring stick.
I think this is the case right here. Whether it is a fair or equal comparison or not doesn't matter. WHen you are #2 in the draft you will always be compared to #1. They are two very different players with different skill sets and so forth, but since they went 1-2, it's always going to be Kane v. JVR. If JVR blows up and scores 100 points the next three years and Kane only scores in the 60s or something, guess what people will start saying the Hawks maybe made the wrong choice.

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12-05-2010, 11:31 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think this is the case right here. Whether it is a fair or equal comparison or not doesn't matter. WHen you are #2 in the draft you will always be compared to #1. They are two very different players with different skill sets and so forth, but since they went 1-2, it's always going to be Kane v. JVR. If JVR blows up and scores 100 points the next three years and Kane only scores in the 60s or something, guess what people will start saying the Hawks maybe made the wrong choice.
Well, it should matter because by the end there really wasn't that much debate (as I remember) as to who the #1 pick should be. JVR came out of a weak draft class with only one immediate impact player in the bunch as viewed at the draft.

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2007e.html

And, seriously, there was serious debate between Turris and JVR. People focusing on JVR and Kane are ignoring the fact that guys that were getting compared to Joe *ing Sakic on draft day spent all of last year in the AHL and were drafted one spot behind JVR.

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12-05-2010, 12:52 PM
  #138
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But, we couldn't pick Patrick Kane anyways. He was picked first, we went second so Patrick Kane wasn't an option, unless we traded something to move up one spot if the Hawks would go for it.

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12-05-2010, 12:55 PM
  #139
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Yeah, looking over that 1st round is pretty damn brutal. Only 6 or 7 NHLers so far and most of the forwards are averaging about .5 PPG.

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12-05-2010, 01:20 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, it should matter because by the end there really wasn't that much debate (as I remember) as to who the #1 pick should be. JVR came out of a weak draft class with only one immediate impact player in the bunch as viewed at the draft.

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2007e.html

And, seriously, there was serious debate between Turris and JVR. People focusing on JVR and Kane are ignoring the fact that guys that were getting compared to Joe *ing Sakic on draft day spent all of last year in the AHL and were drafted one spot behind JVR.
That's why I said it doesn't matter if it is equal or fair. When you get drafted, you get compared to the guys drafted around you, and normally the highest drafted player. If the player turns out better everyone will always say how stupid the team ahead of them was for not drafting him and if he turns out not as good they will always say they made the right choice. That's how it works. Who should we compare him to? What is the proper measuring stick if not the guy taken before him?

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12-05-2010, 01:33 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's why I said it doesn't matter if it is equal or fair. When you get drafted, you get compared to the guys drafted around you, and normally the highest drafted player. If the player turns out better everyone will always say how stupid the team ahead of them was for not drafting him and if he turns out not as good they will always say they made the right choice. That's how it works.
It does matter, though. Focusing on Kane is stupid, because the Flyers couldn't draft Kane. If JVR was a stud, and Kane was a bust, then that would be a problem in Chicago... because they could have drafted JVR. Similarly, if we had drafted Turris over JVR, we probably wouldn't be thrilled with who we got in that comparison.

Kane was the #1 pick, and he's been the better player thus far... so apparently they got it right. It's fine to complain that we lost the lottery to Chicago, but it isn't JVR's fault he isn't as good as Kane.

Quote:
Who should we compare him to? What is the proper measuring stick if not the guy taken before him?
Who we could have drafted instead... not who was off the board.

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12-05-2010, 01:59 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It does matter, though. Focusing on Kane is stupid, because the Flyers couldn't draft Kane. If JVR was a stud, and Kane was a bust, then that would be a problem in Chicago... because they could have drafted JVR. Similarly, if we had drafted Turris over JVR, we probably wouldn't be thrilled with who we got in that comparison.

Kane was the #1 pick, and he's been the better player thus far... so apparently they got it right. It's fine to complain that we lost the lottery to Chicago, but it isn't JVR's fault he isn't as good as Kane.



Who we could have drafted instead... not who was off the board.
I'm not complaining about JVR. I like JVR and I said before I think he'll be a solid player in this league. But he's gonna get compared to Kane. That's just how it is. Hence, everyone is comparing him to Kane. Maybe it isn't a fair comparison, but that's too bad because just look around this board and anywhere else...people are comparing him to Kane and judging his performance in reference JVR's and back and forth. It is kind of like how no one will ever really live up to Gretzky but every time there is a great player he will be compared to Gretzky. Sure the comparison isn't really fair, different era, different styles, Gretzky was probably way better than anyone who ever has or will play the game etc, but when a guy like Crosby comes into the league, people will compare the two. That's how it is. It isn't a fair comparison. No one really thinks Crosby is better than Gretzky, but he will be compared to him.

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12-05-2010, 02:10 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not complaining about JVR. I like JVR and I said before I think he'll be a solid player in this league. But he's gonna get compared to Kane. That's just how it is. Hence, everyone is comparing him to Kane. Maybe it isn't a fair comparison, but that's too bad because just look around this board and anywhere else...people are comparing him to Kane and judging his performance in reference JVR's and back and forth. It is kind of like how no one will ever really live up to Gretzky but every time there is a great player he will be compared to Gretzky. Sure the comparison isn't really fair, different era, different styles, Gretzky was probably way better than anyone who ever has or will play the game etc, but when a guy like Crosby comes into the league, people will compare the two. That's how it is. It isn't a fair comparison. No one really thinks Crosby is better than Gretzky, but he will be compared to him.
There's a lot of stupid in the world. Doesn't mean you need to give into it and/or support it and not call a spade a spade. From the Flyers perspective, comparing JVR to Kane is a complete waste of time. The moment we lost the lottery, the comparison between JVR and Kane ceased to matter to the Flyers.

Other than simply as an abstract comparison of hockey players... it's dumb to worry over JVR v. Kane, and it most certainly should not be part of any bitterness directed towards JVR because he isn't Kane.

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12-05-2010, 02:11 PM
  #144
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Kind of funny how everyone is acting like Kane is Wayne Gretzky. Guy's a good player but jesus.

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12-05-2010, 02:13 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Kind of funny how everyone is acting like Kane is Wayne Gretzky. Guy's a good player but jesus.
Yeah, he's gotten terribly overrated. A gifted offensive player, and fun to watch with the puck... but an empty shirt in a lot of other areas of the game. If JVR develops into a 30-30-60 average guy, it's quite possible he'll be just as, if not more valuable as a player.

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12-05-2010, 02:21 PM
  #146
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Yeah, he's gotten terribly overrated. A gifted offensive player, and fun to watch with the puck... but an empty shirt in a lot of other areas of the game. If JVR develops into a 30-30-60 average guy, it's quite possible he'll be just as, if not more valuable as a player.
Yep. To me Kane is Briere. Good and valuable player but one dimensional and useless in some areas of the game

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12-05-2010, 02:24 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
There's a lot of stupid in the world. Doesn't mean you need to give into it and/or support it and not call a spade a spade. From the Flyers perspective, comparing JVR to Kane is a complete waste of time. The moment we lost the lottery, the comparison between JVR and Kane ceased to matter to the Flyers.

Other than simply as an abstract comparison of hockey players... it's dumb to worry over JVR v. Kane, and it most certainly should not be part of any bitterness directed towards JVR because he isn't Kane.
I don't think you have been reading my posts, friend. I think in every post I said it may not be right or fair to compare the two, but that is what is happening. I am not worried about Kane v. JVR nor do I have any bitterness toward him because he is not Kane. I like JVR and think he will be a solid player, but because of what could have been if we won the lottery or if Chicago passed on him, etc he will be compared to him for that reason. That's just how it is. Just like if Malkin didn't turn out to be as good as OV right away, I bet everyone in Pittsburgh would be comparing the two (and probably do as it is right now). Or how people compared Manning and Leaf when they were first drafted. A few years down the line the comparisons will cease, but for now the two will be compared, at least from the Flyers fans point of view.

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12-05-2010, 02:39 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't think you have been reading my posts, friend. I think in every post I said it may not be right or fair to compare the two, but that is what is happening. I am not worried about Kane v. JVR nor do I have any bitterness toward him because he is not Kane. I like JVR and think he will be a solid player, but because of what could have been if we won the lottery or if Chicago passed on him, etc he will be compared to him for that reason. That's just how it is. Just like if Malkin didn't turn out to be as good as OV right away, I bet everyone in Pittsburgh would be comparing the two (and probably do as it is right now). Or how people compared Manning and Leaf when they were first drafted. A few years down the line the comparisons will cease, but for now the two will be compared, at least from the Flyers fans point of view.
I have been reading your posts. Just because "that's the way it is" doesn't mean it isn't dumb, and shouldn't be labeled dumb. People are racist, that' the way it is... they're still a**holes.

Expressing bitterness and/or criticizing that the no. 2 pick isn't as good as the no. 1 pick is dumb. That people don't realize that doesn't make it any less dumb. JVR was picked no. 2 because he was scouted and evaluated as not being as good as Kane (or not having his potential).

From the perspective of a Flyers fan, the comparison you should make is who we could have drafted instead. Did we make the right pick?

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12-05-2010, 02:41 PM
  #149
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Oiler fan here coming in peace.

Who would you rather have in JVR or Gagner (who went 6th overall in that same draft)?

I know these two play completely different styles, but I'm just curious as to what you guys think of Gagner and JVR.

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12-05-2010, 02:56 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I have been reading your posts. Just because "that's the way it is" doesn't mean it isn't dumb, and shouldn't be labeled dumb. People are racist, that' the way it is... they're still a**holes.

Expressing bitterness and/or criticizing that the no. 2 pick isn't as good as the no. 1 pick is dumb. That people don't realize that doesn't make it any less dumb. JVR was picked no. 2 because he was scouted and evaluated as not being as good as Kane (or not having his potential).

From the perspective of a Flyers fan, the comparison you should make is who we could have drafted instead. Did we make the right pick?
Fair enough. I think we did make the right pick. At the time I was more excited than I am now, but that's how it is with a lot of things. If the draft went down today I would probably take JVR still. Logan Couture is pretty solid as well and he is another pretty big dude who could play Flyers hockey, but he plays center and we don't need no centers.

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