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Rangers WANT Richards

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Old
12-05-2010, 10:47 PM
  #251
Ollie Queen
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Richards isn't going to get quite the same return that Kovy got. Kovy was one of the most hyped deadline acquisitions of the decade. Richards is a very good player and teams will certainly line up for him, but I doubt he brings back the same return as a younger Kovalchuk.

With that said, and looking at the previous deadline returns for impending UFA superstars, I could see something like:

Roszival (Oduya) + Anisimov (Bergfors) + Grachev (Cormier) + 2nd/1st if re-signed.

HF will disagree with me because we love to imagine HUGE returns for these players every time one is set to become available, but I have a very hard time imagining it isn't similar to that.

I DON'T see Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal or Lundqvist going and have a very hard time seeing Girardi going as well (just re-signed, so reliable). I see MDZ going before any of them (not that I see him going, just before those guys, even if he is more "valuable" than Dubi/Cally), but the rest of the package would be significantly less valuable with him involved and something like Daley or Grossman would be coming back.

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12-05-2010, 10:49 PM
  #252
ChrisKreider20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TangoMcBride View Post
Let's do a little comparison, shall we?

For Kovalchuk, the Thrashers received:
- Nicklas Bergfors (Devils 3rd ranked prospect according to 2009 HF rankings)
- Patrice Cormier (Devils 5th ranked prospect according to 2009 HF rankings)
- Johnny Oduya
- 1st Round Pick

In my proposed deal, the Stars would receive:
- Derek Stepan (Rangers 3rd ranked prospect according to 2010 HF rankings)
- Ryan McDonagh (Rangers 5th ranked prospect according to 2010 HF rankings)
- Michal Rozsival
- 1st Round Pick

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
well for one, you could argue that every rangers piece is better than the devils piece. The Rangers have a superior prospect pool. I consider Rozsival better than Oduya and the 1st round picks will be lower than 24th.
Kovalchuk was 27 and hyped up to be the best UFA ever available in their prime.

The package would probably be less.
The only way it increases is if Toronto and NY get into a bidding war.

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Old
12-05-2010, 10:59 PM
  #253
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Start with North American players and go from there. Gotta love the endless threads where the Rangers toss a few average, soft Euros in. Nothing against Euros, but of our top 9, 8 are Canadian and 1 Scandanavian. 6 drop the gloves on occasion. Richards, Eriksson, and Ribeiro being the odd 3 out in that regard. Joe likes a tough team and a fairly NA/Scandanavian team. If you look at the roster and the prospect pool, the stars have had little to do with European players. Keep Anisamov and Grachev out of it. Let's see a proposal with Kreider or Stepan, not just the same 4 or 5 guys the fanbase wouldn't mind to see let go because you already know they bring no real special or intangible element to the Rangers.

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12-05-2010, 11:00 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterqvist24 View Post
Richards isn't going to get quite the same return that Kovy got. Kovy was one of the most hyped deadline acquisitions of the decade. Richards is a very good player and teams will certainly line up for him, but I doubt he brings back the same return as a younger Kovalchuk.

With that said, and looking at the previous deadline returns for impending UFA superstars, I could see something like:

Roszival (Oduya) + Anisimov (Bergfors) + Grachev (Cormier) + 2nd/1st if re-signed.

HF will disagree with me because we love to imagine HUGE returns for these players every time one is set to become available, but I have a very hard time imagining it isn't similar to that.

I DON'T see Dubinsky, Callahan, Staal or Lundqvist going and have a very hard time seeing Girardi going as well (just re-signed, so reliable). I see MDZ going before any of them (not that I see him going, just before those guys, even if he is more "valuable" than Dubi/Cally), but the rest of the package would be significantly less valuable with him involved and something like Daley or Grossman would be coming back.
I think that package is pretty close to what it will be if the trade goes down. Second pairing defenseman, young player who could end up being a 2nd line center, project prospect, and draft pick.

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12-05-2010, 11:17 PM
  #255
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For Richards?

Something like
- MDZ
- Ethan Werek
- 1st

or

- Dan Girardi
- Ryan McDonagh
- Ethan Werek
- 2nd

This said, Toronto counters with 2 1st rounders.

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Old
12-05-2010, 11:47 PM
  #256
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
But you aren't saying anything intelligent. Dallas fans keep taking the Kovalchuck deal, upgrading EVERY part of it, and claiming it's the same thing. The Rangers 1st is going to be higher than last year's Devils first. Roszival is a much better d-man than Oduya. McDonagh isn't a headcase prospect that the team was looking to get rid of (like Cormier) and Stepan is doing well in the NHL at the same age that Bergfors was struggling in the AHL.

ALL FOUR Rangers pieces in this deal are worth more than the Devils equivalent.

There's also the matter of Richards being 4 years older than Kovalchuck.
1. You can't say NYR 1st is going to be higher than NJ 1st. I bet your not going to care if Richards is the missing player to take the Rangers to Stanley Cup final. But if Rangers bomb out of playoffs and Dallas gets pick 17 then bad luck, that's the risk you take.

2. Roszival is not going to appeal to Dallas who has an internal cap at a $5m cap hit. Giraldi is a better alternative cap wise. Also I rather have Oduya at his salary and on ice production than Roszival at his salary and on ice production.

3. NJ wanted to keep Cormier but Dudley/Waddell insisted on him being part of the deal. They did not give him to Atlanta. Atlanta could of requested Tedenby but Dudley wanted Cormier bad. Also in the offseason Dudley turned down an approach from Montreal offering Halak for Cormier, which shows how high he rates the kid despite his off ice legal issues.

3. Your going to have to accept that one of Stepan or Anisimov is going to Dallas. Dallas needs a ready made replacement to center their first line, like Atlanta needed a ready made replacement winger for the departing Kovalchuk.

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Old
12-05-2010, 11:54 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think that package is pretty close to what it will be if the trade goes down. Second pairing defenseman, young player who could end up being a 2nd line center, project prospect, and draft pick.
That draft pick will be a first. Nieuwendyk is going to insist on it.

Rangers could ask for Dallas 2nd in return so they don't lose the pick (it will just be a downgrade from 1st to 2nd) and also it is likely there will be additional player going from Dallas to New York allong with Richards. Probably a defenseman.

I think a good premise for the deal would be:

To NYR:
Richards
Niskanen or Daley (Dallas choice)
2nd

To DAL:
Anisimov
Giraldi or Rozsival (Dallas choice)
Grachev
1st

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Old
12-05-2010, 11:58 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Using the Kovalchuk deal as precedent, I'd guess the package would have to look like:

Girardi + Anisimov + Werek + 1st

Like the Kovy deal, there's a top-4 defenseman, promising young forward, above-average prospect, and a 1st rounder. Girardi is better than Oduya, Bergfors had more value than Anisimov has, and Werek and Cormier are similar prospects.
False, Anisimov has alot more valude than Bergfors has.

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12-06-2010, 12:01 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
To N.Y. Rangers:

Brad Richards

To Dallas:

Michal Rozival
Michael Del Zotto
Brandon Dubinsky
1st Round Pick 2011
God you people are so ignorant.

If sather wasnt will to part with Dubinsky when his career high was 13 goals for Dany Heatley an established 50 goal scorer, why do you think he would part with him now was a 60-70 point player for a guy whos going to be a ufa and is 30?

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12-06-2010, 12:06 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Sidorkiewicz View Post
1. You can't say NYR 1st is going to be higher than NJ 1st. I bet your not going to care if Richards is the missing player to take the Rangers to Stanley Cup final. But if Rangers bomb out of playoffs and Dallas gets pick 17 then bad luck, that's the risk you take.
The last time the Rangers finished with a better record than the Devils was the 1995/96 season. That's 15 straight years of the Rangers having higher draft picks than the Devils. I can definitely say that the Rangers 1st rounder this year will almost certainly be higher than the pick NJ had last year.

Quote:
2. Roszival is not going to appeal to Dallas who has an internal cap at a $5m cap hit. Giraldi is a better alternative cap wise. Also I rather have Oduya at his salary and on ice production than Roszival at his salary and on ice production.
Girardi and Roszival pretty much make the same salary next year. Roszival's cap hit will be a couple of million higher, but his salary (ie- the number that counts for an internal budget) is only ~3 million.

Quote:
3. NJ wanted to keep Cormier but Dudley/Waddell insisted on him being part of the deal. They did not give him to Atlanta. Atlanta could of requested Tedenby but Dudley wanted Cormier bad. Also in the offseason Dudley turned down an approach from Montreal offering Halak for Cormier, which shows how high he rates the kid despite his off ice legal issues.
Sources for any of this? Cormier had long been labeled a behavior-based bust by the time he was shipped out.

Quote:
3. Your going to have to accept that one of Stepan or Anisimov is going to Dallas. Dallas needs a ready made replacement to center their first line, like Atlanta needed a ready made replacement winger for the departing Kovalchuk.

No, I don't think I'm going to have to accept any such thing. You, the Dallas fans and some of the others keep talking about how the Rangers will have to give up major aspects of their young core. Look at the history of star players being traded. It just doesn't happen. When was the last time that a star player brought back a bevvy of top tier assets? The first Lindros trade? If Dallas wants to ask for the moon, that is their prerogative, but they shouldn't get pissed off when the Rangers respond with,"okay then, never mind." Sather has walked away from exorbitant demands time and time again. He wouldn't include the core in a trade for Heatley. He wouldn't include the core in a trade for Kovalchuck. He's not going to change that strategy now just because Dallas fans think that Richards is going to return more value than any star player traded in the last decade.

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12-06-2010, 12:08 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Gabborik View Post
God you people are so ignorant.

If sather wasnt will to part with Dubinsky when his career high was 13 goals for Dany Heatley an established 50 goal scorer, why do you think he would part with him now as a 60-70 point player for a guy whos going to be a ufa and is 30?
One who casually declares Brandon Dubinsky a "60-70 point player" should be calling no one ignorant.

Of course, there is typically a RUSH around here to BESTOW accomplishment on those who have not, in fact, accomplished much, if anything. We recognize that, fully.

And, yes, Dubinsky is off to his best season ever and is maturing. And - wait for it - projected stats suggest he may this year hit the numeric threshold you HAND to him.

That said, he has never yet come close to 60 points, let alone 70.


Last edited by Trottier: 12-06-2010 at 12:15 AM.
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12-06-2010, 12:13 AM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabborik View Post
God you people are so ignorant.

If sather wasnt will to part with Dubinsky when his career high was 13 goals for Dany Heatley an established 50 goal scorer, why do you think he would part with him now, a "potential" 60-70 point player, for a guy whos going to be a ufa and is 30?
Make sure you put "potential" before 60-70 point player before some Islander fan calls you out on it... oh too late...

And its Girardi... not Giraldi... and he is the #2D -- he won't be moved end of story.

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12-06-2010, 12:14 AM
  #263
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False, Anisimov has alot more valude than Bergfors has.
Why is that? Because he wears a Rangers jersey?

Artem Ansimov
Position: C
Age:22

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Niklas Bergfors
Position: RW
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Old
12-06-2010, 12:14 AM
  #264
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And for any one who thinks Sather and Co. are going to give up any thing of REAL value all I have to say is...

Scott Gomez for Higgins, Mcdonogh, Valentenko.

Higgins for prust

McD and Valentenko are two of our better D prospects right now.

Hes always been great when it comes to trades, its his free agent signings that blow and I dont think any Rangers fan will disagree with that.

But as far as a trade concerned Im confident as usual that the only thing of value slats gives up is our first round pick.

1st, 2nd Frolov, Grachev, Mcdonogh.

Two good prospects, a 1st and a 2nd and Roster player.

Sather stated earlier in the year hes content with the core he has and is not going to break it up.

Prospects arent off limits. Picks arent off limits. Our core, is. Which is going to be why if slats does get a deal done, that will be it. If not it will be because Dallas wants what sather will not give up.

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12-06-2010, 12:15 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Kari View Post
Why is that? Because he wears a Rangers jersey?

Artem Ansimov
Position: C
Age:22

2009-2010 GP82 G12 A16 P28
2010-2011 GP28 G07 A08 P15

Niklas Bergfors
Position: RW
Age: 23

2009-2010 GP81 G21 A23 P44
2010-2011 GP24 G06 A11 P17
No, because he is a center.

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12-06-2010, 12:18 AM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
One who casually declares Brandon Dubinsky a "60-70 point player" should be calling no one ignorant.

Of course, there is typically a RUSH around here to BESTOW accomplishment on those who have not, in fact, accomplished much, if anything. We recognize that, fully.

And, yes, Dubinsky is off to his best season ever and is maturing. And - wait for it - projected stats suggest he may this year hit the numeric threshold you HAND to him.

That said, he has never yet come close to 60 points, let alone 70.
He was on pace for 53 points last year I believe if he had not gotten injured. 60 is not out of reach considering he has 23 in 29 games?

Your right, 7 points is such a un-thinkable leap for a player in one year.

And while I should have put potential, its not like im saying hes a 80-90 point player. I said 60-70 because based on his pace for this year, and his points from last year, 60 is not that big of a leap.


Last edited by Gardner McKay: 12-06-2010 at 12:23 AM.
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12-06-2010, 12:18 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by TangoMcBride View Post
Stepan, McDonagh, Rozsival (if we must take back some salary), 1st.
Yep basically what I said. Not saying I think Richards will be traded because I don't. But is the value here fair IMO? Yes. And I'm not a fan of either team. The whole UFA thing is being taken way too far. If Sather has any intention of trading for Richards, I'd bet he also has plans in place for an extension. Besides, a signed Richards gets more than that package anyway. Stepan - bright future definitely but still largely unproven. McDonagh - good potential but entirely unproven. Rozsival - better than last year but still not worth his contract. And the 1st would be in the latter half of the round. When you break it down, it's more than fair.

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12-06-2010, 12:19 AM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Kari View Post
Why is that? Because he wears a Rangers jersey?

Artem Ansimov
Position: C
Age:22

2009-2010 GP82 G12 A16 P28
2010-2011 GP28 G07 A08 P15

Niklas Bergfors
Position: RW
Age: 23

2009-2010 GP81 G21 A23 P44
2010-2011 GP24 G06 A11 P17


Bergfors plays top 6. Anisimov plays everywhere from 2nd line to 4th line. Anisimov is MUCH better defensively. Anisimov dominated the AHL, whereas Bergfors was inconsistent at best.

Anisimov has a MUCH higher upside than Bergfors, and plays more of a complete game. When Anisimov isn't scoring, he's still contributing. When Bergfors isn't scoring, he's being a whiny pain in the ass who gets benched by his coach.

It's pretty easy to see why Anisimov is the more valuable player when you watch them both play rather than just glancing at the stat line and cherry picking the numbers that suit what you want to see.

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12-06-2010, 12:19 AM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
Make sure you put "potential" before 60-70 point player before some Islander fan calls you out on it... oh too late...

And its Girardi... not Giraldi... and he is the #2D -- he won't be moved end of story.
Yeah and Im the ignorant one for saying Dubinsky won't be traded for Richards when hes twice the player he was when slats refused to trade him for Heatley.

Just ignores the rest of my statement.

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12-06-2010, 12:21 AM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Bergfors plays top 6. Anisimov plays everywhere from 2nd line to 4th line. Anisimov is MUCH better defensively. Anisimov dominated the AHL, whereas Bergfors was inconsistent at best.

Anisimov has a MUCH higher upside than Bergfors, and plays more of a complete game. When Anisimov isn't scoring, he's still contributing. When Bergfors isn't scoring, he's being a whiny pain in the ass who gets benched by his coach.

It's pretty easy to see why Anisimov is the more valuable player when you watch them both play rather than just glancing at the stat line and cherry picking the numbers that suit what you want to see.
Anisimov is top 6 as well. And yes, much better defensively, and I may be the majority on this but Centers are more of a valuable commodity than wingers.

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12-06-2010, 12:34 AM
  #271
Karitimes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Kari View Post
Why is that? Because he wears a Rangers jersey?

Artem Ansimov
Position: C
Age:22

2009-2010 GP82 G12 A16 P28
2010-2011 GP28 G07 A08 P15

Niklas Bergfors
Position: RW
Age: 23

2009-2010 GP81 G21 A23 P44
2010-2011 GP24 G06 A11 P17
True. I'd rather have Bergfors because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabborik View Post
No, because he is a center.
Benn is a better, tougher, younger capable center who had 20 even strength goals in a very limited role last season. Yet if we do lose one of our 2 top centerman and Benn moves over to play 2nd line center, we need a good winger to fill his 2nd line RW roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Bergfors plays top 6. Anisimov plays everywhere from 2nd line to 4th line. Anisimov is MUCH better defensively. Anisimov dominated the AHL, whereas Bergfors was inconsistent at best.

Anisimov has a MUCH higher upside than Bergfors, and plays more of a complete game. When Anisimov isn't scoring, he's still contributing. When Bergfors isn't scoring, he's being a whiny pain in the ass who gets benched by his coach.

It's pretty easy to see why Anisimov is the more valuable player when you watch them both play rather than just glancing at the stat line and cherry picking the numbers that suit what you want to see.
Benn dominated the last years AHL playoffs more than Anisimov ever dominated anything down there, but really who cares about the AHL. I know that's not what you are arguing here, but with people being called out for ignorance all the time, I thought there is something about the proposed trade partner you might be ignoring. The lack of need Dallas really has for Anisimov. Wandell is currently and will continue to be a capable, speedy and affordable 3rd line center in the event Richards or Ribeiro were gone.

Richards/Ribeiro
Benn
Wandell
Whoever


Last edited by Karitimes: 12-06-2010 at 12:51 AM.
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12-06-2010, 01:02 AM
  #272
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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The last time the Rangers finished with a better record than the Devils was the 1995/96 season. That's 15 straight years of the Rangers having higher draft picks than the Devils. I can definitely say that the Rangers 1st rounder this year will almost certainly be higher than the pick NJ had last year.



Girardi and Roszival pretty much make the same salary next year. Roszival's cap hit will be a couple of million higher, but his salary (ie- the number that counts for an internal budget) is only ~3 million.



Sources for any of this? Cormier had long been labeled a behavior-based bust by the time he was shipped out.




No, I don't think I'm going to have to accept any such thing. You, the Dallas fans and some of the others keep talking about how the Rangers will have to give up major aspects of their young core. Look at the history of star players being traded. It just doesn't happen. When was the last time that a star player brought back a bevvy of top tier assets? The first Lindros trade? If Dallas wants to ask for the moon, that is their prerogative, but they shouldn't get pissed off when the Rangers respond with,"okay then, never mind." Sather has walked away from exorbitant demands time and time again. He wouldn't include the core in a trade for Heatley. He wouldn't include the core in a trade for Kovalchuck. He's not going to change that strategy now just because Dallas fans think that Richards is going to return more value than any star player traded in the last decade.
That's your opinion and good for you in backing your current core but I can tell you that if Rangers don't come party and satisfy Dallas in what they want then there there will be another team who is willing to give up pieces of their young core and prospects to get a stud player like Richards.

LA missed out on Kovy because they are rumored to refuse to give up Wayne Simmonds and ended missing him in the offseason too. I can see the same situtation occurring in NY if you think you can get him for free.
Also regarding my Cormier info, Kevin Allen posted it in his USA today blog a day after Halak was traded for Eller.

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12-06-2010, 03:09 AM
  #273
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Grachev, Anisimov, salary dump and a conditional pick

for

Richards
Role player

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Old
12-06-2010, 04:40 AM
  #274
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Richards isn't going anywhere.
Dallas will re-sign him.

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12-06-2010, 05:13 AM
  #275
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Sweet. We get almost four months of Stars-Rangers proposals now.

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