HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Goalies beat short side high ?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-07-2010, 04:04 AM
  #1
SgtJoseph
Registered User
 
SgtJoseph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northwest Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 3,540
vCash: 500
Goalies beat short side high ?

I see this a lot in the NHL, and with the Flyers goalies also, and for the life of me i just cannot understand goalies not staying upright on their skates on bad angle shots.Every night on the NHL channel i see a lot of goals high short side because goalies are going down on bad angles and are getting sniped high short side because either their glove or waffle [ blocker] are now dropped low exposing the high short side.

I notice the Flyers goalies go down almost on one knee at times when the puck is at a very bad angle [ almost when even with the goal line at times] which really opens up a gap in the 5 hole also and invites a ricochet off the pad etc ?I understand in a sense that the goalie is going down on the inside leg some as to be able to spring across to the other side in the event of a pass across the middle or the shooter going around behind the net to back door from the other side, but this positioning certainly seems to open up holes that otherwise should not be there on sharp angles.

I get more nervous watching bad angle shots these days than i do shots straight on it seems.Having played goal myself back in the day when stand up goal tending was the norm, i understand the evolution of the butterfly and how it covers more of the lower net with the large pads and chest gear etc goalies use these days etc, but i really think at bad angles staying upright and cutting down the angle would be much more effective. Danny Briere seems to do a good job catching goalies going down on bad angles where he snipes the now open high side.

Does anyone else cringe a little when watching goalies getting sniped from bad angles ?

SgtJoseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 07:02 AM
  #2
kicksave27
Registered User
 
kicksave27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,255
vCash: 500
It's just the way it is now. Having grown up with the 80's style and taking instruction in the 90's in to the modern fly style. Robert Esche actually used to drive me bonkers with it as well, since he was usually half way across the net when a guy was taking a sharp angle shot, st louis and briere killed him.

I'm with you, the more sharp the angle the more upright I get and hug the post. But all goalies except nabby & brodeur are going to be in the knee down and ready to push across position. If you are going to take away everything low, it's going to open holes elsewhere. But they should be able to read the situation as well, Kane on leighton is a great example. Kane didn't have a pass option, leighton should be standing straight up at the post, though most fly goalies can't seal 5 hole standing straight up anymore either. So it probably still would have went in.

Oddly the goalie position to a great degree has become less athletic and more size oriented, like tall white centers in basketball. Little guys back in the old day could really move. Bob is one of the quickest goalies I've seen in a long time, I'd much rather try to work on technique with him, than try to make leighton faster.

kicksave27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 07:36 AM
  #3
LEIFey
Context Matters!
 
LEIFey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 7,318
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to LEIFey
Covering the bottom of the net is just in style right now with all the butterfly goalies. Which kind of makes sense since the majority of shots tend to be low and players like Jeff Carter miss so much when they shoot high. A perfectly placed top shot will pretty much always score today, but it's much harder to place that shot than one that is lower unless you're right on the doorstep.

LEIFey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 08:16 AM
  #4
ArmchairGM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,312
vCash: 500
-It allows you to cover up more of the lower half of the net and allows you to get flush to the post

-It allows you to more easily play any sort of "break away" play where the player is able to beat the defender or move around the defender

- It allows you to more quickly move for a backdoor pass and allows you to cover more net down low while moving

-Goalie pads are no longer built (at least most) to place the pads together when standing, so the style is unlikely to come back.

-Yes there are problems with the one knee down, especially on the blocker side where it is hard to maximize coverage. However, it provides a better base for a modern butterfly game when compared to the old style of standing up.

ArmchairGM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 08:16 AM
  #5
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,337
vCash: 500
I hear you, Sgt Joe, and am old enough, too, to know what "waffle" means to a goalie. As you and I know, goaltending has had to adapt to the speed of the game. Back in the 70s-80s, you didn't have as many one-timers and the puck movement wasn't as frantic. Add in the fact that today's NHLers are just plain faster as well as the composite sticks, and goalies can't afford to be too static.

However, I agree with your assessment that at certain moments -- ie, Leighton on Kane -- the goalie's first thought should just be to square to the shooter and take away the whole net.

BernieParent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 10:52 AM
  #6
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
It's just the way it is now. Having grown up with the 80's style and taking instruction in the 90's in to the modern fly style. Robert Esche actually used to drive me bonkers with it as well, since he was usually half way across the net when a guy was taking a sharp angle shot, st louis and briere killed him.

I'm with you, the more sharp the angle the more upright I get and hug the post. But all goalies except nabby & brodeur are going to be in the knee down and ready to push across position. If you are going to take away everything low, it's going to open holes elsewhere. But they should be able to read the situation as well, Kane on leighton is a great example. Kane didn't have a pass option, leighton should be standing straight up at the post, though most fly goalies can't seal 5 hole standing straight up anymore either. So it probably still would have went in.

Oddly the goalie position to a great degree has become less athletic and more size oriented, like tall white centers in basketball. Little guys back in the old day could really move. Bob is one of the quickest goalies I've seen in a long time, I'd much rather try to work on technique with him, than try to make leighton faster.
In fairness to the technique, Leighton also inexplicably spazzed out when the puck was coming towards him, which opened him up even more.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 11:06 AM
  #7
Juicy Couturier*
CannonGoBoom
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Philly Area
Posts: 4,910
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Juicy Couturier*
Maybe people forget the ridiculously weak wristers that used to go in down low in the standup era. The standup style goalie was a product of either not wearing a mask or wearing one that would shatter on your face if hit hard enough. Once goalies started wearing better face masks they slowly worked up the courage to get down low in the net to take up more room, even if it left their face below the crossbar. I personally would rather make a guy snipe top cheddar than have a standup goalie letting in low shots that are bouncing off legs and skates through screens that could easily be saved if he had the paddle down and legs spread.

Juicy Couturier* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 11:32 AM
  #8
FlyersCup08
Registered User
 
FlyersCup08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 944
vCash: 500
Armchair hit it right on the nose.

The biggest thing is that the standup leaves you too exposed. It's worth making the shooter have to pick that tiny spot than allowing him to screw you by making a move to the middle or passing to the middle, where you wouldn't be able to get there in time.

Also, like Armchair said, pads are just not built that way, they taper at the toe so when your legs are together in the standup, there is still a hole that players can snipe.

I see what you're saying, but that is because you grew up with the old style. Speaking as a goalie who grew up with the hybrid in the 90s & then full butterfly style that came in the 2000s, I can 100% tell you it's better by a longshot. Cannongoboom also made a great point, go back and watch some goals from the 50s & 60s. If that doesn't make you cringe I don't know what will.

FlyersCup08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 12:34 PM
  #9
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,007
vCash: 500
Pete Peeters to me especially when he played for Wash was awesome with his angles and stand up style when on his game and I don't recall him getting beat short side high a ton but it's been a long time. Def the stand up style was good at preventing those goals. Don't remember Liut or Burke's exposure although the latter became a sieve in his later years.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 12:52 PM
  #10
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 32,221
vCash: 500
JVB used to get killed shortside high all the time.
see that playoff series against Toronto

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 01:12 PM
  #11
kicksave27
Registered User
 
kicksave27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,255
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
JVB used to get killed shortside high all the time.
see that playoff series against Toronto
Beezer was 5'7", and was 34 at the time. But that is a whole other topic.

Though the nice thing about having boosh back is that every now and then I get to see a two pad stack.

kicksave27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 01:14 PM
  #12
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Short-side High is just the price you pay.

Goalie training and defensive systems are just so much better than they were in the 80s. Sure, a 1980s goalie would stop more of those shots but they'd just be abused the rest of the time. No offense against the great goal scorers of the 80s but their highlight reels look like a pick up game of pond hockey in terms of goalie technique.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 01:28 PM
  #13
97FlyersKing18
Registered User
 
97FlyersKing18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 622
vCash: 500
In addition to CannonGoBoom's historical analysis, a goalie going down to his knees to intentionally make a save would draw a hefty fine and would expand if goalies continued to go down.

If a goalie is going to keep his stick down, while covering the right post from an angle, he will not be able to get his blocker up in time. Although NHL players are skilled enough to put the puck anywhere they want, it is smarter for a goalie to play the percentages and cover the lower portion of the net and have the ability to pokecheck/cover five hole with a stick.

To a goalie of this era, the stick is an important tool used to make saves, even though the glove save is flashy and the blocker save is under-rated.

97FlyersKing18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 02:31 PM
  #14
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,231
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
I notice the Flyers goalies go down almost on one knee at times when the puck is at a very bad angle [ almost when even with the goal line at times] which really opens up a gap in the 5 hole also and invites a ricochet off the pad etc ?I understand in a sense that the goalie is going down on the inside leg some as to be able to spring across to the other side in the event of a pass across the middle or the shooter going around behind the net to back door from the other side, but this positioning certainly seems to open up holes that otherwise should not be there on sharp angles.

Does anyone else cringe a little when watching goalies getting sniped from bad angles ?
FWIW, goalies in general are easier to beat top shelf blocker side than glove side. The motion to get your elbow or hand up there just isn't as natural or fast as getting the trapper up.

I have noted in other threads (once under this user name and a couple of times as I am The Mush) that Bobrovsky's footwork once the puck goes behind his net is particularly bad, and he puts his paddle down way too often IMO (thus dropping his right shoulder and opening up the top shelf more). I would be willing to bet that it's something that changes in his game over time. Kari Lehtonen used to be the same way and got killed on it all the time.

Lundqvist is really good about sealing that top corner with his blocker elbow when he is sealing the post in the half butterfly. It looks awkward as hell when he's standing in that position, but I've never seen him close to getting beat on it so...

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 02:38 PM
  #15
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post

Lundqvist is really good about sealing that top corner with his blocker elbow when he is sealing the post in the half butterfly. It looks awkward as hell when he's standing in that position, but I've never seen him close to getting beat on it so...
Ryan Miller just uses the power of telekinesis.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 02:43 PM
  #16
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,231
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Ryan Miller just uses the power of telekinesis.
I've heard about that, but didn't feel it was a particularly relevant technique, since no one else in the league can emulate it.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 02:45 PM
  #17
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I've heard about that, but didn't feel it was a particularly relevant technique, since no one else in the league can emulate it.
He purposely let the Canadians get the gold medal since silver is a stronger metal and he will use that to fashion a dagger to kill Sidney Crosby.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 02:56 PM
  #18
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,231
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
He purposely let the Canadians get the gold medal since silver is a stronger metal and he will use that to fashion a dagger to kill Sidney Crosby.
I heard he was just bored with the game.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 03:18 PM
  #19
McNasty
Registered User
 
McNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rutgers
Country: United States
Posts: 5,722
vCash: 500
Goalies play percentages, and I would imagine the hardest spot to fire the puck is high short side.

McNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 05:33 PM
  #20
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Goalies play percentages, and I would imagine the hardest spot to fire the puck is high short side.
It's "harder" to lift the puck period... isn't necessarily a matter of short v. far side of the net.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 05:43 PM
  #21
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,231
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's "harder" to lift the puck period... isn't necessarily a matter of short v. far side of the net.
I disagree, but only sort of.

It's not that short or far side is always harder or easier, but the side of the net that requires you to shoot across your body more than the other is always going to be harder to lift the puck in. The arms/hands just don't do that motion very well (it's a lot harder to keep the blade opened up to lift the puck). So, situationally, there is always going to be a side that is easier to go top shelf on.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 05:51 PM
  #22
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I disagree, but only sort of.

It's not that short or far side is always harder or easier, but the side of the net that requires you to shoot across your body more than the other is always going to be harder to lift the puck in. The arms/hands just don't do that motion very well (it's a lot harder to keep the blade opened up to lift the puck). So, situationally, there is always going to be a side that is easier to go top shelf on.
Sure, but that's independent of short v. far based on which handed stick you play with.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2010, 05:55 PM
  #23
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,231
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Sure, but that's independent of short v. far based on which handed stick you play with.
Right. I was more expounding on what you were saying than disagreeing with it.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2010, 02:04 AM
  #24
SgtJoseph
Registered User
 
SgtJoseph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northwest Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 3,540
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
FWIW, goalies in general are easier to beat top shelf blocker side than glove side. The motion to get your elbow or hand up there just isn't as natural or fast as getting the trapper up.

I have noted in other threads (once under this user name and a couple of times as I am The Mush) that Bobrovsky's footwork once the puck goes behind his net is particularly bad, and he puts his paddle down way too often IMO (thus dropping his right shoulder and opening up the top shelf more). I would be willing to bet that it's something that changes in his game over time. Kari Lehtonen used to be the same way and got killed on it all the time.

Lundqvist is really good about sealing that top corner with his blocker elbow when he is sealing the post in the half butterfly. It looks awkward as hell when he's standing in that position, but I've never seen him close to getting beat on it so...
I agree with you 100% about BOB when the pucks behind him or at a very sharp angle.I really like the lad, he is a fine young goalie but that putting the stick paddle down at times drives me crazy!I see Boosh and Leighton do that too, and i guess Jeff Reese teaches that method ?For what its worth i have seen Lundqvist burnt twice this season high shortside at terrible angles, he looked pretty bad on both of them, although he is a heck of a goalie for sure.

SgtJoseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2010, 02:21 AM
  #25
SgtJoseph
Registered User
 
SgtJoseph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northwest Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 3,540
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
Armchair hit it right on the nose.

The biggest thing is that the standup leaves you too exposed. It's worth making the shooter have to pick that tiny spot than allowing him to screw you by making a move to the middle or passing to the middle, where you wouldn't be able to get there in time.

Also, like Armchair said, pads are just not built that way, they taper at the toe so when your legs are together in the standup, there is still a hole that players can snipe.

I see what you're saying, but that is because you grew up with the old style. Speaking as a goalie who grew up with the hybrid in the 90s & then full butterfly style that came in the 2000s, I can 100% tell you it's better by a longshot. Cannongoboom also made a great point, go back and watch some goals from the 50s & 60s. If that doesn't make you cringe I don't know what will.
Good post ! Just want to clear up that i am not against modern goal tending [ butterfly], i just do not like seeing it used at bad angles where staying up can cut down the angle and cover high and low etc.I understand about how important situational awareness is and anticipating a deke or a quick pass across the middle etc also, gotta trust the Dmen at times to clean up the area out front if they are back in their positions [ unless its a 2 on 1 quick break type deal].
Back in the day i use to actually cheat a little by showing a little more open net for a moment and then quickly cover up the moment the shooter shoots at the hole i showed, called it baiting the shooter and it was VERY effective against good accurate shooters, but not so good against shooters who had no idea where the heck the puck was going when they shoot. LOL

I remember Cowboy Bill Flett back during the Flyers glory years, when that cat would let loose you had know idea where the heck the puck was going, Dorny was CRAZY setting up in front of the net to screen when Cowboy would let loose with a bomb.I liked Bill Flett a lot [ He scored his fair share ] But i know goalies hated that cat, i bet even Bernie hated practice when Flett was shooting. LOL

SgtJoseph is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:47 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.