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Old
12-07-2010, 04:09 PM
  #26
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You would think Shooter would have taken a class at Wharton school of business by now. We shall see if he has the balls to waive leighton. You cant carry 3 goalies and you cant count on his back holding up. Send him down and if healthy he is the backup next year. It really is as simple as that. I rather keep walker and bart as injuries may mount on the backend. seen it before. Regardless if you have the waterboy and liar liar in goal, they aint winning jack anyway. So keep the 8 d. They still need to get bart a little time and walker some when he returns.

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12-07-2010, 04:14 PM
  #27
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Relax people. They haven't even put Lappy or Walker on LTIR yet. Since Leighton was on LTIR, Bob's contract for the first 28 games of the season is considered zero, since he was replacing an injured player. The entire Leighton contract comes back, but the dollars used to replace him (Bobs salary) is added to the dollar amount we can spend this year (IE. 59.4 million cap + what Bob made to this point).

A few years back we got royally screwed when Briere came back. That was an impossible situation since Briere made 6.5 million that year. He missed most of the year and came back with limited time remaining in the season - IT was HUGE because we were replacing 6.5 million with 850,000. So for the entire season, we got less than .85 of cap relief to replace 6.5 million. Homer added players to get through the season that year which counted against the cap, when Briere came back, his 6.5 million less .85 to replace him put us over the cap and we had to send Giroux down to make it work, etc, etc. In todays situation, when Leighton comes back, it is not nearly the impact of Briere coming back. His entire contact is added back to our cap, but likely Laps is removed and Nod's entire season becomes cap free as he is the replacement for that injured player. Also, when Lappy is put on LTIR his entire season contract comes off our cap as he has been injured since day 1. This is why they haven't put him on yet as it gives them options.

We have no need to add a piece at the deadline, so this "issue" is irrelevant. We are fine and will continue to be fine unless the FLyers add a player that is not currently on the roster. Relax

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12-07-2010, 04:29 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
We have no need to add a piece at the deadline, so this "issue" is irrelevant. We are fine and will continue to be fine unless the FLyers add a player that is not currently on the roster. Relax
We don't? No one is going to get injured? Problems won't arise? The team cannot be improved?

You don't know any of that. There's a reason it's smart to have cap cushion... the unexpected.

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12-07-2010, 04:34 PM
  #29
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We don't? No one is going to get injured? Problems won't arise? The team cannot be improved?

You don't know any of that. There's a reason it's smart to have cap cushion... the unexpected.
We added the players in the off-season and many believe you are much better off adding missing pieces for the entire year rather than trying to fill holes at deadline day. Plus, ya'll would just hammer Homer for giving up another pick to make a deal then. So, how exactly does he win? He made it such that we have 8 quality d-men, three scoring lines + depth at forward and 3 quality NHL goalies. We don't need to use a pick to bolster the roster this year. If we have an injury like Briere then we are screwed like any team that spends to the cap would be. Detroit lost Leino last year because Datsyk came back. If you want to be a top team in the NHL, you need to spend like one. Look at the top sellers and look at the standings. You will see some correlation I believe.

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12-07-2010, 04:43 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
We added the players in the off-season and many believe you are much better off adding missing pieces for the entire year rather than trying to fill holes at deadline day. Plus, ya'll would just hammer Homer for giving up another pick to make a deal then. So, how exactly does he win? He made it such that we have 8 quality d-men, three scoring lines + depth at forward and 3 quality NHL goalies. We don't need to use a pick to bolster the roster this year. If we have an injury like Briere then we are screwed like any team that spends to the cap would be. Detroit lost Leino last year because Datsyk came back. If you want to be a top team in the NHL, you need to spend like one. Look at the top sellers and look at the standings. You will see some correlation I believe.
No... if this team is in a position to win a Cup and you make a deal that helps that cause, that's a smart move. However, by handcuffing yourself you make it so that you have no ability to make such a move.

Importantly, this brings together two important flaws in Holmgren. He throws picks away with consistency, which reduces his assets to work with. He also works to the cap ceiling, which limits him even further in what he can do. A case in point being last year, when we were incapable of getting a quality NHL goalie to come here and replace Emery, which ended up costing us rather big.

There is absolutely a correlation between spending and winning. There is also a correlation between spending wisely and making good deadline deals. Pittsburgh won a Stanley Cup almost entirely due to some savvy deadline deals.

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12-07-2010, 04:45 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We don't? No one is going to get injured? Problems won't arise? The team cannot be improved?

You don't know any of that. There's a reason it's smart to have cap cushion... the unexpected.
Not saying your wrong, I love cap cushion, but we technically already have some. Like he said, you plop Walker or Lappy onto LTIR, and there it is. Not really cushion, but it's money you can use elsewhere. If Walker comes back, you waive him. Lappy isn't coming back, and this is a formality leading to a likely retirement (as much as I hate to say that).

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12-07-2010, 04:49 PM
  #32
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Not saying your wrong, I love cap cushion, but we technically already have some. Like he said, you plop Walker or Lappy onto LTIR, and there it is. Not really cushion, but it's money you can use elsewhere. If Walker comes back, you waive him. Lappy isn't coming back, and this is a formality leading to a likely retirement (as much as I hate to say that).
Yes and no, because we're already dipping into that reservoir.

BTW, do we know if bonuses can be accommodated by LTIR?

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12-07-2010, 04:51 PM
  #33
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Pittburgh has great management. You simply lose for 10 years and be the worst franchise in hockey such that they want to move you to Kansas. Then the NHL somehow gives you Sidney Crosby during the "lottery" and voila - magicly you have great management. They did add some great pieces to a young team not yet making huge money, brilliant. If you want us to suck for 10 years to do the same, great. Not me. In the Detroit and Phiilly system, you spend your money, attract free agents, make deals and contend every year. You need to win all year to get a good playoff spot. We have cap problems - look at the rest of the league:

Team Cap Space
New Jersey Devils » 0
Vancouver Canucks » $0
Philadelphia Flyers » 0
Calgary Flames » 0
Boston Bruins » 0
Pittsburgh Penguins » $164,202
Detroit Red Wings » $0

SO it ain't like Homer is alone in this....

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12-07-2010, 04:54 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes and no, because we're already dipping into that reservoir.

BTW, do we know if bonuses can be accommodated by LTIR?
Bonuses are not counted until they are earned. We have bonues on this years cap do the JVR earning them last year. Bob's bonus money goes on next years cap and so on. The more money guys make this year in bonuses, the harder it is the next year.

This is why when the Blackhawks won the cup they were doomed. Because Toews earned a 1 million bonus for winning the cup. Worth it, but killed the team the following year.

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12-07-2010, 04:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We don't? No one is going to get injured? Problems won't arise? The team cannot be improved?

You don't know any of that. There's a reason it's smart to have cap cushion... the unexpected.
they already acquired the missing piece in Mezaros.

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12-07-2010, 04:57 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Pittburgh has great management. You simply lose for 10 years and be the worst franchise in hockey such that they want to move you to Kansas. Then the NHL somehow gives you Sidney Crosby during the "lottery" and voila - magicly you have great management. They did add some great pieces to a young team not yet making huge money, brilliant. If you want us to suck for 10 years to do the same, great. Not me. In the Detroit and Phiilly system, you spend your money, attract free agents, make deals and contend every year. You need to win all year to get a good playoff spot. We have cap problems - look at the rest of the league:

Team Cap Space
New Jersey Devils » 0
Vancouver Canucks » $0
Philadelphia Flyers » 0
Calgary Flames » 0
Boston Bruins » 0
Pittsburgh Penguins » $164,202
Detroit Red Wings » $0

SO it ain't like Homer is alone in this....
It's pretty well established -- across all sports -- that the majority of management teams aren't exactly filing applications as the "best and the brightest."

Also... the current FO in Pittsburgh wasn't really running the ship when they got Crosby and co., you're aware of that, right? They certainly have benefited from the draft picks -- oh, and BTW, it isn't a bad strategy to improve your organization through the draft -- but they weren't winning the Cup two years ago without some very heady moves at the deadline.

When Detroit won the Cup prior to that, they did have a good deal of cap flexibility, as it was prior to all of their contracts coming due and it killing their cap space. Since then they've started to lose bits and pieces of their depth with regularity... and while they remain talented, that's an old roster in key spots and it will probably catch up with them as we go along here.

Of course comparing the Detroit and Philly "systems" is comical for a number of reasons, not the least of which being the number of banners one team has accumulated.

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12-07-2010, 04:58 PM
  #37
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they already acquired the missing piece in Mezaros.
Agreed. And we have already had injuries in Lappy, Leighton and Walker and have managed to get through them. Now your gettin' it.

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12-07-2010, 04:59 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Bonuses are not counted until they are earned. We have bonues on this years cap do the JVR earning them last year. Bob's bonus money goes on next years cap and so on. The more money guys make this year in bonuses, the harder it is the next year.

This is why when the Blackhawks won the cup they were doomed. Because Toews earned a 1 million bonus for winning the cup. Worth it, but killed the team the following year.
No, bonuses roll over only if you do not have the cap space in that league year to accommodate the bonuses -- THAT was the Hawks problem. What I am asking is if LTIR space can be used to address bonuses, or if it will roll over in the event those guys hit on 'em (and at Bob's current pace, he will get all of his bonuses, I'm sure).

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12-07-2010, 05:02 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's pretty well established -- across all sports -- that the majority of management teams aren't exactly filing applications as the "best and the brightest."

Also... the current FO in Pittsburgh wasn't really running the ship when they got Crosby and co., you're aware of that, right? They certainly have benefited from the draft picks -- oh, and BTW, it isn't a bad strategy to improve your organization through the draft -- but they weren't winning the Cup two years ago without some very heady moves at the deadline.

When Detroit won the Cup prior to that, they did have a good deal of cap flexibility, as it was prior to all of their contracts coming due and it killing their cap space. Since then they've started to lose bits and pieces of their depth with regularity... and while they remain talented, that's an old roster in key spots and it will probably catch up with them as we go along here.

Of course comparing the Detroit and Philly "systems" is comical for a number of reasons, not the least of which being the number of banners one team has accumulated.
Since Homer took over, Detroit, Pittsburgh and Philly are consistent contenders for the cup to start the year. If you look at my list, the cup winner is likely there. Forget the past, all team making a run this year have cap probllems. Pittsburgh does not win a cup without Sid and Malkin regardless of those deals.

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12-07-2010, 05:02 PM
  #40
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Agreed. And we have already had injuries in Lappy, Leighton and Walker and have managed to get through them. Now your gettin' it.
wow injuries to spare parts. Those are really cripppling. I cant beleive they have marched on with those guys on the injured list. Just think were they would be if they were not hurt.

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12-07-2010, 05:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Since Homer took over, Detroit, Pittsburgh and Philly are consistent contenders for the cup to start the year. If you look at my list, the cup winner is likely there. Forget the past, all team making a run this year have cap probllems. Pittsburgh does not win a cup without Sid and Malkin regardless of those deals.
the flyers were a consitent cup contedner long before shooter took over. I could care less abot other teams cap problems. so does that justify shooter being bad at the cap ebcause other teams have no cap space? Your really going out on a limb sayign that about the pens winning the cup.

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12-07-2010, 05:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Since Homer took over, Detroit, Pittsburgh and Philly are consistent contenders for the cup to start the year. If you look at my list, the cup winner is likely there. Forget the past, all team making a run this year have cap probllems. Pittsburgh does not win a cup without Sid and Malkin regardless of those deals.
Detroit didn't have cap problems when they won the cup (they had the ability to sign Hossa to that one year deal and everything)... neither did Pittsburgh (thus their ability to make deadline acquisitions that catapulted them into the team that won the Cup).

Since Homer took over, we haven't even secured home ice advantage... so it's somewhat laughable to declare that we've been Cup contenders. The first playoff year we were underdogs in both series we won; the next year we lost in the first round... as the dog; and last year we were the friggin 7 seed, and almost certainly would have lost to either Pittsburgh or Washington given our goaltending.

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12-07-2010, 05:29 PM
  #43
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Jester you had holmgren, we get it. Seriously we do. I find it laughable that the guy can't do anything right. We are going to bash him now for spending up to the cap?

oh please.....

Please tell us jester, who are you going to make a deal for at the deadline?

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12-07-2010, 05:31 PM
  #44
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Jester you had holmgren, we get it. Seriously we do. I find it laughable that the guy can't do anything right. We are going to bash him now for spending up to the cap?

oh please.....

Please tell us jester, who are you going to make a deal for at the deadline?
You are operating under the belief that this is a new line of criticism? He's been getting bashed for this going back two years.

Mike Richards bashed him for it publicly.

Full of fail here.

BTW: Richards' criticism led to Holmgren publicly stating that not having cap cushion was a problem two years ago, and that it would be a goal going forward. He spent the summer wisely managing the cap and creating some cushion, which included waiving Randy Jones to get there... he then promptly blew his cushion last year by idiotically recalling Jones and saddling us with half his salary.

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12-07-2010, 06:55 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We don't? No one is going to get injured? Problems won't arise? The team cannot be improved?

You don't know any of that. There's a reason it's smart to have cap cushion... the unexpected.
An underrated factor in this team's success has been amazing luck with health.

Our 10 best forwards and our 6 best D have all pretty much stayed completely healthy outside of Pronger missing a couple games. This is virtually unheard of in the NHL, especially for us.

I mean, if this team does have any kind of significant injury, it's backs against the wall as far as the cap is concerned.

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12-07-2010, 06:58 PM
  #46
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An underrated factor in this team's success has been amazing luck with health.

Our 10 best forwards and our 6 best D have all pretty much stayed completely healthy outside of Pronger missing a couple games. This is virtually unheard of in the NHL, especially for us.

I mean, if this team does have any kind of significant injury, it's backs against the wall as far as the cap is concerned.
Yeah, and barring a season ender which would free up the LTIR space permanently, it isn't like you can just go out and acquire a short-term fix... which is the real benefit of having a cap cushion. If you have that going for you and you suffer an important injury, you can get a decent player and not get *ed when the injured guy comes off LTIR.

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12-07-2010, 07:09 PM
  #47
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No, bonuses roll over only if you do not have the cap space in that league year to accommodate the bonuses -- THAT was the Hawks problem. What I am asking is if LTIR space can be used to address bonuses, or if it will roll over in the event those guys hit on 'em (and at Bob's current pace, he will get all of his bonuses, I'm sure).
LTIR space can't be used for bonus purposes, so there's a handful of teams that could get royally ****ed by bonuses rolling over as there's no cushion next year - double whammy.

Quote:
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Yeah, and barring a season ender which would free up the LTIR space permanently, it isn't like you can just go out and acquire a short-term fix... which is the real benefit of having a cap cushion. If you have that going for you and you suffer an important injury, you can get a decent player and not get *ed when the injured guy comes off LTIR.
Wellwood is most certainly the team's short-term fix up front, Bartulis in back. Neither are world beaters, but the cap implication on those guys isn't too severe as Bartulis is already accounted for and Wellwood can be easily fit in for the period that someone is on LTIR and go away again with no real penalty other than losing bankable cap space, which we just don't get in the organization.

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12-07-2010, 07:11 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
An underrated factor in this team's success has been amazing luck with health.

Our 10 best forwards and our 6 best D have all pretty much stayed completely healthy outside of Pronger missing a couple games. This is virtually unheard of in the NHL, especially for us.

I mean, if this team does have any kind of significant injury, it's backs against the wall as far as the cap is concerned.
At the risk of putting my words in others' mouths... I believe the original point raised was that the depth built was a cushion against key injuries... where they have the replacements in-house. An example was the eight NHL quality D-men... Also we must note the depth down the middle and being able to account for injuries with the entire top nine, as well as with role players. Nodl and possibly Wellwood are even more contingency... And there is depth between the pipes as well, mainly thanks to Bob emerging so quickly.

The point was that the depth was built going into the season to take care of projected supplementation at the Trade Deadline... In theory this does make sense, IMO... and it could be cheaper in the long run as well as more efficient over the course of the entire season.

We will see.

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12-07-2010, 07:20 PM
  #49
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An underrated factor in this team's success has been amazing luck with health.
By the end of last year we had one of the highest totals for man-power missed per game based on dollars spent since the end of the lockout. We were right up there with the Islanders, who were running away with it, if I remember correctly. I don't remember the details, but yeah.

Luck with health? That's an absolute joke...

Look at the last three years alone...

07-08
Gagne - 57 games missed
Upshall - 21 games missed
Hatcher - 38 games missed
Lupul - 26 games missed

08-09
Briere - 53 games missed
Jones - 35 games missed
Parent - 36 games missed

09-10
Carter - 19 games missed
Gagne - 28 games missed
Betts - 19 games missed
Powe - 19 games missed
Emery - 1/2 season~
Leighton - 1/4 season~
Boucher - 1/4 season~

10-11
Walker - 28 games missed so far
Leighton - 28 games missed so far

This year we've gotten lucky that it's really been nobody important, but don't sit there and preach like we've gotten lucky in terms of injuries. It's astronomical for anyone to sit there and say that when we've had more significant injuries since the lockout than most NHL organizations.

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12-07-2010, 07:46 PM
  #50
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We get some breathing room if Walker gets waived (and not recalled) after coming off injury, correct?

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