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Old
12-07-2010, 07:53 PM
  #51
decadentia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

Luck with health? That's an absolute joke...

Look at the last three years alone...


10-11
Walker - 28 games missed so far
Leighton - 28 games missed so far


This year we've gotten lucky that it's really been nobody important, but don't sit there and preach like we've gotten lucky in terms of injuries. It's astronomical for anyone to sit there and say that when we've had more significant injuries since the lockout than most NHL organizations.
Cropped down your post a bit but...the bolded is all I believe he was referring to. You even further proved his point, we haven't lost anyone significant to injuries yet. Thus we've been lucky so far this year. No need for a history lesson, this year we've been lucky so far and it's played a part in our success. I don't understand how you missed that context considering what he quoted.

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Old
12-07-2010, 08:00 PM
  #52
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So does the team have to forfeit just Giroux or Giroux AND Bobrovsky? Because I'm confused about all these panties in bunches.

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12-07-2010, 08:01 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
By the end of last year we had one of the highest totals for man-power missed per game based on dollars spent since the end of the lockout. We were right up there with the Islanders, who were running away with it, if I remember correctly. I don't remember the details, but yeah.

Luck with health? That's an absolute joke...

Look at the last three years alone...

07-08
Gagne - 57 games missed
Upshall - 21 games missed
Hatcher - 38 games missed
Lupul - 26 games missed

08-09
Briere - 53 games missed
Jones - 35 games missed
Parent - 36 games missed

09-10
Carter - 19 games missed
Gagne - 28 games missed
Betts - 19 games missed
Powe - 19 games missed
Emery - 1/2 season~
Leighton - 1/4 season~
Boucher - 1/4 season~

10-11
Walker - 28 games missed so far
Leighton - 28 games missed so far

This year we've gotten lucky that it's really been nobody important, but don't sit there and preach like we've gotten lucky in terms of injuries. It's astronomical for anyone to sit there and say that when we've had more significant injuries since the lockout than most NHL organizations.
Considering you do a lot of that, you make me laugh. He was talking about this year smug Cliff.

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12-07-2010, 08:03 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Cropped down your post a bit but...the bolded is all I believe he was referring to. You even further proved his point, we haven't lost anyone significant to injuries yet. Thus we've been lucky so far this year. No need for a history lesson, this year we've been lucky so far and it's played a part in our success. I don't understand how you missed that context considering what he quoted.
Didn't realize he was referring to this season.

Even so, we've dealt with significant injuries in the past, and it turned out fine in the end for the most part.

It can always get worse, but we're a team that has enjoyed success despite our injuries, certainly not because we've been healthy since the Richards-era began in 2007.

I don't know how that proves his point unless he believes that if we sustain a significant injury to any of our players we don't have reserves to deal with the situation. That is a complete lie.

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12-07-2010, 08:24 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
By the end of last year we had one of the highest totals for man-power missed per game based on dollars spent since the end of the lockout. We were right up there with the Islanders, who were running away with it, if I remember correctly. I don't remember the details, but yeah.

Luck with health? That's an absolute joke...

Look at the last three years alone...

07-08
Gagne - 57 games missed
Upshall - 21 games missed
Hatcher - 38 games missed
Lupul - 26 games missed

08-09
Briere - 53 games missed
Jones - 35 games missed
Parent - 36 games missed

09-10
Carter - 19 games missed
Gagne - 28 games missed
Betts - 19 games missed
Powe - 19 games missed
Emery - 1/2 season~
Leighton - 1/4 season~
Boucher - 1/4 season~

10-11
Walker - 28 games missed so far
Leighton - 28 games missed so far

This year we've gotten lucky that it's really been nobody important, but don't sit there and preach like we've gotten lucky in terms of injuries. It's astronomical for anyone to sit there and say that when we've had more significant injuries since the lockout than most NHL organizations.
I was referring to this season.

Nice effort though.

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Old
12-07-2010, 08:43 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I was referring to this season.

Nice effort though.
Realized that just a bit too late.

Doesn't change anything. We have 14 forwards (+ Wellwood), 8 defensemen, and 3 goalies on our hypothetical roster that's over the cap. That's plenty of NHL-readiness to cover for injuries. The problem is that we have too many people waiting in the wings, not that we have too little.

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12-07-2010, 09:06 PM
  #57
decadentia
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Realized that just a bit too late.

Doesn't change anything. We have 14 forwards (+ Wellwood), 8 defensemen, and 3 goalies on our hypothetical roster that's over the cap. That's plenty of NHL-readiness to cover for injuries. The problem is that we have too many people waiting in the wings, not that we have too little.
Discussing opposite situations for different seasons altogether doesn't change anything? That's ridiculous. You brought in the red herring out of context, you could at least be reasonable and acknowledge the point made....but wait...no...

...our problem is our depth? Interesting. Bring on the injuries so Wellwood can outperform our top 6, maybe Timonen gets injured and Bartulis shows he has #2 capability? Stanley Cup here we come.

If Briere/Carter/Top 6 Winger/Multiple Goaltenders/Betts miss significant time like the previous seasons (which they have not), we are not looking at the same spot in Standings today. It's not the same thing whatsoever, in fact that's why we're lucky.

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12-07-2010, 09:13 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Discussing opposite situations for different seasons altogether doesn't change anything? That's ridiculous. You brought in the red herring out of context, you could at least be reasonable and acknowledge the point made....but wait...no...

...our problem is our depth? Interesting. Bring on the injuries so Wellwood can outperform our top 6, maybe Timonen gets injured and Bartulis shows he has #2 capability? Stanley Cup here we come.


If Briere/Carter/Top 6 Winger/Multiple Goaltenders/Betts miss significant time like the previous seasons (which they have not), we are not looking at the same spot in Standings today. It's not the same thing whatsoever, in fact that's why we're lucky.
It's actually the D that worries me the most.

I mean, we've been getting really strong minutes out of the old guys, but Kimmo, Pronger, and O'Donnell are all over 35 and thus, a bit more susceptible to injury especially when you consider that Kimmo and Pronger had 100 game seasons last year plus the Olympics.

I've been encouraged that we've been keeping Kimmo and Pronger to 22-23 minutes, but realistically, if anybody in that top-6 goes down, I am skeptical about Bartulis' ability as an NHL d-man right now (he is not good defensively).

So I mean, if one of the 4 of Coburn, Carle, Mes, OD gets hurt, that's definitely significantly increased minutes for Pronger/Kimmo because I don't think anyone trusts Bart/Walker to play a regular shift and if one of Kimmo/Pronger gets hurt, well, that's a bit of a disaster.

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12-07-2010, 09:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
...our problem is our depth? Interesting. Bring on the injuries so Wellwood can outperform our top 6, maybe Timonen gets injured and Bartulis shows he has #2 capability? Stanley Cup here we come.
Injuries can ruin anyone's chances for the Stanley Cup.

Welcome to hockey.

Luckily for us, we have better depth than most teams so it may not effect us as much.

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12-07-2010, 10:03 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Injuries can ruin anyone's chances for the Stanley Cup.

Welcome to hockey.

Luckily for us, we have better depth than most teams so it may not effect us as much.
Shafer - I agree totally, but the haters will never let up! If I see one more flyer fan 'mocking' our chance at a Stanley Cup I am going to lose it! This team is loaded up front, stacked on d with a stud goalie and two good backups. So, lets ignore that and complain about the lack of money to improve our depth later? Pfft

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12-07-2010, 10:49 PM
  #61
decadentia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Injuries can ruin anyone's chances for the Stanley Cup.

Welcome to hockey.

Luckily for us, we have better depth than most teams so it may not effect us as much.
I kind of feel like i'm talking to a brick wall. That had absolutely nothing to do with what I was referring to. "Injuries can ruin anyone's chances for the Stanley Cup" ...John Madden's spirit lives on.

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12-07-2010, 11:06 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
We get some breathing room if Walker gets waived (and not recalled) after coming off injury, correct?
Yes. The Flyers are something like $600k over the cap right now with Leighton on LTIR. If we can ditch Walker's $1.8 mil it leaves a lot of breathing room, especially if we trim down to two goalies.

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12-07-2010, 11:13 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
I kind of feel like i'm talking to a brick wall. That had absolutely nothing to do with what I was referring to. "Injuries can ruin anyone's chances for the Stanley Cup" ...John Madden's spirit lives on.
I'm not really sure what I missed.

Once Leighton comes back, we will of course be over the cap, but our team, that happens to be over the cap, will have the following active players on it:

vanRiemsdyk - Richards - Nodl
Hartnell - Briere - Leino
Zherdev - Giroux - Carter
Powe - Betts - Shelley
Carcillo - Laperriere

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - O'Donnell
Bartulis - Walker

Bobrovsky
Boucher
Leighton

Bold are the players that are unnecessary to the roster we ice every game (+ Shelley instead of Carcillo even though I'd rather they be switched).

Those 5 players take up $6.09m in cap space.

We LTIR (Lappy)/waive/drop/trade/whatever pretty much any one of them but Bartulis, we're back under the cap projection correct?

In fact, let's get rid of all 4 but Bartulis.

Hartnell (4.20) - Briere (6.50) - Leino (0.80)
vanRiemsdyk (1.65) - Richards (5.75) - Nodl (0.85)
Zherdev (2.00) - Giroux (0.82) - Carter (5.00)
Powe (0.73) - Betts (0.70) - Shelley (1.10)

Pronger (4.92) - Carle (3.44)
Timonen (6.33) - Coburn (3.20)
Meszaros (4.00) - O'Donnell (1.30)
Bartulis (0.60)

Bobrovsky (1.75)
Boucher (0.93)

TOTAL: 55.97 with a full roster.
CAP: 59.40
SPACE: 3.43

We are extremely flexible. We have depth, but it's expendable depth. We have plenty of options. Hell, we can go out and get a ton of people with 3.43m, and possibly even dump some of these expendable pieces in the process.

I fail to see an issue outside of the overdramatics of the Holmgren-hating faction.

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Old
12-08-2010, 12:00 AM
  #64
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Refresh my memory please; can an over 35 player, whose Cap hit is with a team through the contract no matter what, have his contract (including Cap hit) traded?

I forget the details on that... For example, can Pronger be traded and the Flyers gain Cap space?... More to the point, can Lappy's contract be traded along with a kicker to a team well under Cap to absorb the Cap space?... Lappy and a prospect and a pick for a lesser throw in prospect. Of course all for losing Cap... Or is that circumvention of CBA Cap rules and punishable by the NHL Powers That Be?... Is it even legal to trade a healthy Over 35 Player under the CBA Rules? I honestly cannot remember the rules that pertain... and too lazy to research the CBA for an answer; hoping some here knows.

... And, if it is Kosher, it is an option for Homer.

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12-08-2010, 05:47 AM
  #65
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You can trade anyone you want. If you trade a player, his cap hit leaves with him.

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12-08-2010, 08:24 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
LTIR space can't be used for bonus purposes, so there's a handful of teams that could get royally ****ed by bonuses rolling over as there's no cushion next year - double whammy.
Excellent.

JVR's scoring woes are fine, then.

Quote:
Wellwood is most certainly the team's short-term fix up front, Bartulis in back. Neither are world beaters, but the cap implication on those guys isn't too severe as Bartulis is already accounted for and Wellwood can be easily fit in for the period that someone is on LTIR and go away again with no real penalty other than losing bankable cap space, which we just don't get in the organization.
They represent perfectly fine short-term solutions. However, if you're looking at a guy missing extended time, you're going to see a notable drop in play from that roster spot... which is the problem.

How it goes, but also why having some space left to work with as the season goes on has real advantage for you.

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12-08-2010, 08:26 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Refresh my memory please; can an over 35 player, whose Cap hit is with a team through the contract no matter what, have his contract (including Cap hit) traded?

I forget the details on that... For example, can Pronger be traded and the Flyers gain Cap space?... More to the point, can Lappy's contract be traded along with a kicker to a team well under Cap to absorb the Cap space?... Lappy and a prospect and a pick for a lesser throw in prospect. Of course all for losing Cap... Or is that circumvention of CBA Cap rules and punishable by the NHL Powers That Be?... Is it even legal to trade a healthy Over 35 Player under the CBA Rules? I honestly cannot remember the rules that pertain... and too lazy to research the CBA for an answer; hoping some here knows.

... And, if it is Kosher, it is an option for Homer.
Theoretically, yes... could the league put the kibosh on it? Yep. The Devils traded Malakhov to get under the cap a few years ago, for example. However, that was because he retired... not because of injury. Since Lappy can be on LTIR, might as well just leave him there.

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12-08-2010, 08:31 AM
  #68
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Shafer - I agree totally, but the haters will never let up! If I see one more flyer fan 'mocking' our chance at a Stanley Cup I am going to lose it! This team is loaded up front, stacked on d with a stud goalie and two good backups. So, lets ignore that and complain about the lack of money to improve our depth later? Pfft
who is the stud goalie the flyers have? Did they make a trade?

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12-08-2010, 08:51 AM
  #69
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who is the stud goalie the flyers have? Did they make a trade?
Cool - so you hate Bob too? Who else is on your list? 3rd in wins, 7th in GAA, 7th in Save %. If only we had a proven guy like this board wanted. A star goalie like Marty Turco. Oh wait, didn't he just lose the starting job in Chicago to Mr. Corey Crawford? Oh snap, maybe it was a good move re-signing Leighton and bringing in Bob instead of signing Turco.

Here is an idea, we have a goalie who is playing and putting up numbers very similar to Lindbergh in a Flyer uniform in 2010. That makes him a stud goalie in my books. Until he is proven like Turco, he is too risky for you. Whatever.

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12-08-2010, 08:59 AM
  #70
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RT @euroflyers: "I haven't focused on it anymore since I've understood that there'll be no extension offer before they move someone else." - Leino.

RT @euroflyers: "It's a positive that we're winning games, but we've been playing some weaker teams. We haven't gotten the best out of ourselves." - Leino

RT @euroflyers: "We've been having some really weak first periods and we haven't been able to respond to those." - Timonen

At the very least, it sounds like Leino truly knows what goes on. Looks like his extension has to wait until after the season though

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12-08-2010, 09:08 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Cool - so you hate Bob too? Who else is on your list? 3rd in wins, 7th in GAA, 7th in Save %. If only we had a proven guy like this board wanted. A star goalie like Marty Turco. Oh wait, didn't he just lose the starting job in Chicago to Mr. Corey Crawford? Oh snap, maybe it was a good move re-signing Leighton and bringing in Bob instead of signing Turco.

Here is an idea, we have a goalie who is playing and putting up numbers very similar to Lindbergh in a Flyer uniform in 2010. That makes him a stud goalie in my books. Until he is proven like Turco, he is too risky for you. Whatever.
I wouldn't say he hates Bob, I know personally I'm the type where I wouldn't call him a stud goalie yet either. He has a ****-ton of potential and is looking fantastic, but I won't start using words like "stud" "star" or "elite" until he gets a full NHL season under his belt.

But he's on pace to be the savior that Lindbergh was supposed to be, which is comforting.

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12-08-2010, 09:09 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
RT @euroflyers: "I haven't focused on it anymore since I've understood that there'll be no extension offer before they move someone else." - Leino.

RT @euroflyers: "It's a positive that we're winning games, but we've been playing some weaker teams. We haven't gotten the best out of ourselves." - Leino

RT @euroflyers: "We've been having some really weak first periods and we haven't been able to respond to those." - Timonen

At the very least, it sounds like Leino truly knows what goes on. Looks like his extension has to wait until after the season though
As long as his "worry about the money later" approach doesn't effect his gameplay, I'm fine with this. Although I want Leino to stick around.

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12-08-2010, 09:34 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Cool - so you hate Bob too? Who else is on your list? 3rd in wins, 7th in GAA, 7th in Save %. If only we had a proven guy like this board wanted. A star goalie like Marty Turco. Oh wait, didn't he just lose the starting job in Chicago to Mr. Corey Crawford? Oh snap, maybe it was a good move re-signing Leighton and bringing in Bob instead of signing Turco.

Here is an idea, we have a goalie who is playing and putting up numbers very similar to Lindbergh in a Flyer uniform in 2010. That makes him a stud goalie in my books. Until he is proven like Turco, he is too risky for you. Whatever.
So that is the conclusion you make, that I hate the rushkie. Your logic as usual is flawed. Sorry any player that has played 20 odd games does not qualify as being a stud in goal. He has played very well. Let him go around the league more than 1 time and let the year play out before you start calling him a stud goalie. No it wasn’t a good move signing Leighton so stop trying to justify it, you like him, I am happy for you. When the have the flyers carnival maybe you can get a picture and Leighton and Mezaros together with yourself. Then you can frame it, put it in your bedroom for you to view every night before you got o bed. Leighton probably wont be here though so you will have to settle for Mezaros only.

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12-08-2010, 09:46 AM
  #74
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Excellent.

JVR's scoring woes are fine, then.
Interestingly, he has smaller bonus potential this year than in either of the other years on his deal. http://capgeek.com/players/display.php?id=803

Quote:
They represent perfectly fine short-term solutions. However, if you're looking at a guy missing extended time, you're going to see a notable drop in play from that roster spot... which is the problem.

How it goes, but also why having some space left to work with as the season goes on has real advantage for you.
All true, but a) the way the team was built was to weather storms like that, and b) they could still go out and pick someone up if they're willing to make the contracts of Walker, Bartulis, Leighton/Boosh, and/or Lappy go away. The team is right at the cap, but it could easily get away from there.

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12-08-2010, 10:03 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
All true, but a) the way the team was built was to weather storms like that, and b) they could still go out and pick someone up if they're willing to make the contracts of Walker, Bartulis, Leighton/Boosh, and/or Lappy go away. The team is right at the cap, but it could easily get away from there.
The Flyers are uniquely positioned to weather storms like injuries to star players and still get enough scoring or D to win. And if need be, as you say, there are a lots of ways they can free up cap room easy to acquire someone.

Last year we lost our starting goalie to injury, picked up a waiver wire miracle in his place, had our backup carry us into the playoffs and through a series until the #1 was back. We also had Carter break his foot in March, Gagne break his toe, Carter came back and broke his other foot, and we still made it to the finals.

Teams like Pitt, Wash or Boston could not survive injuries like that to their top players. Malkin, Green or Chara go down and they are done. The Flyers can weather comparable losses because we aren't so dependent on a few players. Even if we lost a top F or D for an extended time, we have the depth to move someone up the roster.

And some of our kids are coming on. JVR is playing great. Nodl is making himself indispensible in the top 9. He's really contributing on offense, making nice passes and finishing his chances. I love Carcillo, but Nodl's strong play is keeping Powe out of the top 9 and Danny in the pressbox.

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